Avatars of Waha

[Darius West]

Something that we haven't discussed before afaik is the fact that during the First and Second Ages, Waha took a physical body in Prax.  We are also told that the "Greatest Khan" in Prax at any time is imbued with a portion of Waha's power.  Is this the same thing?  Or was Pavis and the Faceless Statue's defeat of Waha in the Second Age the defeat of Waha as an actual incarnate superhero?  That tale specifically mentions Waha being hamstrung by the Faceless Statue and cured by Pavis, which is hard to do without a physical body to attack   It is certainly possible for Waha to be incarnate, given that He is the direct ancestor of many Praxians, and hence can be summoned to possess them via Daka Fal rituals.  It can be argued that Waha is a comparatively minor deity, no more powerful than Harrek, Jar-Eel, Androgeus, or Belintar, and thus can become incarnate without affecting the Great Compromise, given that he was potentially alive and incarnate at the Dawning like Androgeus. 

I am interested in other people's opinions on this.

[Runeblogger]

Yes, I had always assumed that Waha fighting Pavis and the Statue was actually a Praxian khan posessed by Waha, effectively an avatar of the god, similar to how Jar-Eel is an avatar of Sedenya.

[Joerg]

This might compare to the combo of Rathor and Harrek, with the difference that Harrek's taxidermy stunt changed who is in the driver's seat.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

a Praxian khan possessed by Waha, effectively an avatar of the god

Wouldn’t we normally contrast possession with ideas like avatar and incarnation? In possession, someone else’s body gets used like a meat puppet. In incarnation, the body is the god’s own body (even if “fully” human, and even if the god has had more than one), not one hijacked from some other person, no? Christians say that Jesus is their god (identity: Jesus = God), not that their god stole Mary’s child’s body — because that would be creepy, right?

If Pavis healed Waha — rather than the body of some disposable khan — does that argue in favour of incarnation over possession?

I am sure Delecti has a perspective on this. Presumably, so do those Gloranthan theologians/lawyers hired to litigate over the Great Compromise. If there is no scary faction who argues that this is a distinction without a difference, I will be disappointed. Others will maintain that possession is OK if the victim volunteer signs the right papers before the possession. And …

• We didn’t steal your child’s body for our demonic ritual and cast her soul into Hell.
  She simply woke up to the fact that she is the Lord of the Nether Pits — has been, all along.
  Nothing to see here.
   
• Ah, but Subsection 13 strictly forbids bodily manifestation of Demon Lords on the Material Plane.
  Possession would have been legal.
  Disgusting and immoral … but legal.

There must be propaganda wars over just what went on in the 7M ritual.

When a theistic magician casts a rune spell, I guess everyone thinks that the power of the god is manifest, but whose will is manifest, the magician’s or their god’s?

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

The first step is to walk like Waha until Waha walks like you, is it not? (The second step is to be in concord that, yes, kicking ass and taking names is one of Waha’s dance steps.)

Looked at another way, one of the prices of being Waha is the risk of being Waha. It’s not just you that the half-elf is mending, not the way that the story will remember it.

[soltakss]

Waha Khans can use the Call Founder spell to incarnate the founder of their tribe. A logical extension of this would be to call Waha temporarily. In my opinion, this is what happened when Pavis wrestled with Waha, he forced all the Tribal Khans to use Call Founder to incarnate Waha and then wrested with him. Alternatively, Pavis could have gone to the God Time and wrestled with Waha on a HeroQuest.

Don't forget that the excellent Nomad Gods has many of the Deities of Prax present and incarnated on the gameboard. The Hero Wars allows such things.

[Malin]

A very tangential echo of this might be how the Lunars managed to "kill" Orlanth and Ernalda in Dragon Pass, leading to the Windstop. Acts on the mundane plane temporarily affecting the local otherworld, needing to be undone by more heroquesting.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Don't forget that the excellent Nomad Gods has many of the Deities of Prax present and incarnated on the gameboard. The Hero Wars allows such things.

The tribal deities (or spirits) seem to have been available already prior to the Hero Wars. Nomad Gods is about the Jaldon games, communal training exercises/holy ritualized warfare between the tribes.

No idea whether bringing along the tribal deities would work outside of Sacred Prax and/or the Wastes. The oasis spirits are localized entities which may be unavailable outside of the Praxian theater.

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

In my opinion, this is what happened when Pavis wrestled with Waha, he forced all the Tribal Khans to use Call Founder to incarnate Waha and then wrested with him.

Logically, I figured out that this meant having the khans working together to call up Waha, but in my heart, I’m still envisioning Pavis fighting half a dozen Wahas off like Gustav Vigeland’s “Man Attacked By Babies.”

Edit: the Inverse Waha Law states that the threat level of Wahas is inversely proportionate to their numbers…

Edited February 18 by Tatterdemalion Fox

[Eff]

I think it's a valuable exercise here to imagine for a moment that this struggle took place on a removed metaphysical or metaphorical plane, and ask what the material/middle world results were: Pavis built his city.

Here's an interpretation building on that, then, as an example. The struggle was over whether Pavis could build a city, and Pavis's victory meant he hobbled Waha, that is, he reduced Waha to the status of slave in Praxian terms, and also reduced his mobility.

Pavis then healed Waha, giving him some of his mobility back and restoring some of his status, but rendering him subordinate to Pavis. Or to put it another way, Pavis threatened to destroy the freedom of the Animal Nomads with his city, but settled on simply subordinating them through subordinating their god. This subordination was so potent that the Praxians had to summon a power outside of Waha, Jaldon Goldentooth, to change the relationship between them and the city. 

So I think that in physical terms, the conflict between Pavis and Waha probably occurred in such a way as to make it credible that this was over the status of the Animal Nomads and the shape of Prax, meaning that however Waha manifested, it probably involved all of the big five and some of the independents participating in that manifestation.

[Nick Brooke]

Greg used to call this “heroforming,” didn’t he? Great Khans do it, Masks of Moonson do it, and I’m sure there are plenty of others.

[John Biles]

On 2/18/2024 at 9:07 AM, Joerg said:

The tribal deities (or spirits) seem to have been available already prior to the Hero Wars. Nomad Gods is about the Jaldon games, communal training exercises/holy ritualized warfare between the tribes.

No idea whether bringing along the tribal deities would work outside of Sacred Prax and/or the Wastes. The oasis spirits are localized entities which may be unavailable outside of the Praxian theater.

People incarnating Jaldon can raid Sartar, so I would assume Waha could ride you all the way to plunder Glamour if you didn't die first.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, John Biles said:

People incarnating Jaldon can raid Sartar, so I would assume Waha could ride you all the way to plunder Glamour if you didn't die first.

Jaldon was a mortal who became an immortal, re-incarnating hero. Waha is a deity or greater spirit and might need (non-chaotic) support similar to the Bat if carried out of his turf.

[David Scott]

9 hours ago, John Biles said:

People incarnating Jaldon can raid Sartar

That's actually Jaldon!

[David Scott]

On 2/17/2024 at 3:05 PM, Darius West said:

We are also told that the "Greatest Khan" in Prax at any time is imbued with a portion of Waha's power.

This is effectively Call Founder (RBM 21 and LB 147) where the emergency is so great an avatar or (as @Nick Brooke says) a khan heroforms Waha. This is mainly so he can appear on the board in the Hero Wars or other earlier event:

  Waha has no combat factor, a very high magic factor, a good move and disrupts chaos units automatically. (Disrupted units may not move nor attack)

[radmonger]

9 hours ago, John Biles said:

People incarnating Jaldon can raid Sartar, so I would assume Waha could ride you all the way to plunder Glamour if you didn't die first.

As Jaldon is not only mortal but dead, heroforming would involve first dying, and then having his spirit possessing your corpse. Most people with the power to perform the ritual prefer to use a pre-existng corpse. Ideally Jaldon's original, but any he possessed before will do.

[Darius West]

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of Nomad Gods btw?

[Joerg]

11 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of Nomad Gods btw?

The rules are up for sale as a pdf in the Chaosium shop. The game pieces and game board would need some DIY, but unit listings and unit graphics are available for the virtual tabletop.

Check the God Learners episode on Nomad Gods (Part 1) transcript for the links.

[Scotty]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of Nomad Gods btw?

Yes, have a look at the VASSAL page on the Well of Daliath, all the info is on there, plus the links to get the game and the rules.

• Install the VASSAL software (free)
• Install the Nomad Gods module (free)
• Buy the rules PDF ($8.95)
• Find a friend who wants to play

alternatively scour ebay etc and pay a lot...

Over the years I've played about a dozen games with it.

[EricW]

On 2/18/2024 at 1:05 AM, Darius West said:

Something that we haven't discussed before afaik is the fact that during the First and Second Ages, Waha took a physical body in Prax.  We are also told that the "Greatest Khan" in Prax at any time is imbued with a portion of Waha's power.  Is this the same thing?  Or was Pavis and the Faceless Statue's defeat of Waha in the Second Age the defeat of Waha as an actual incarnate superhero?  That tale specifically mentions Waha being hamstrung by the Faceless Statue and cured by Pavis, which is hard to do without a physical body to attack   It is certainly possible for Waha to be incarnate, given that He is the direct ancestor of many Praxians, and hence can be summoned to possess them via Daka Fal rituals.  It can be argued that Waha is a comparatively minor deity, no more powerful than Harrek, Jar-Eel, Androgeus, or Belintar, and thus can become incarnate without affecting the Great Compromise, given that he was potentially alive and incarnate at the Dawning like Androgeus. 

I am interested in other people's opinions on this.

Arkat was a superhero who underwent apotheosis, so he did walk the mundane plane, then he left. Then he returned in a confusing way, the multiple Arkats. Or maybe Argrath is his true avatar. 

Maybe they're all avatars of Arkat. Perhaps apotheosis is something which superheroes who want to uphold the integrity of Glorantha have to do, to prevent the return of the gods war. 

The interesting thing for me is the avatar suggestion hints at higher Waha powers which can be accessed. Waha did some pretty impressive things for a minor deity, he cleansed Prax of the lingering presence of Wakboth after Storm Bull crushed the devil under the block. But few of these feats are reflected in the rather sparse collection of rune magics Waha worshippers seem to access. So Avatars of Waha might have access to some interesting anti-chaos powers, and heroic abilities to change the courses of waterways and other interesting feats, which could be pretty useful in a desert. 

[Darius West]

On 2/24/2024 at 1:09 AM, EricW said:

Arkat was a superhero who underwent apotheosis, so he did walk the mundane plane, then he left. Then he returned in a confusing way, the multiple Arkats. Or maybe Argrath is his true avatar. 

Maybe they're all avatars of Arkat. Perhaps apotheosis is something which superheroes who want to uphold the integrity of Glorantha have to do, to prevent the return of the gods war. 

The interesting thing for me is the avatar suggestion hints at higher Waha powers which can be accessed. Waha did some pretty impressive things for a minor deity, he cleansed Prax of the lingering presence of Wakboth after Storm Bull crushed the devil under the block. But few of these feats are reflected in the rather sparse collection of rune magics Waha worshippers seem to access. So Avatars of Waha might have access to some interesting anti-chaos powers, and heroic abilities to change the courses of waterways and other interesting feats, which could be pretty useful in a desert. 

Hmm, I doubt Arkat was born a superhero.  I think he was just good at rolling his ups, especially after his skills went over 100%. 😆

As for your point about Waha doing a great deal but only having very limited rune magic to show for it, I heartily agree.  I give Waha Khans the ability to tie special knots that can control hostile elementals, called The Knots That Catch.

 

[EricW]

21 hours ago, Darius West said:

Hmm, I doubt Arkat was born a superhero.  I think he was just good at rolling his ups, especially after his skills went over 100%. 😆

As for your point about Waha doing a great deal but only having very limited rune magic to show for it, I heartily agree.  I give Waha Khans the ability to tie special knots that can control hostile elementals, called The Knots That Catch.

 

Maybe Waha is the the law equivalent counterpart of Cacodemon, a divine intervention option is to summon avatar of Waha. 

Edited February 27 by EricW

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, EricW said:

Maybe Waha is the … counterpart of Cacodemon

I like this.

• The ogres eat people.
   
• Waha’s people eat “beasts”
  but claim it is OK because they magically unpersoned them
  with a totally fair and above-board lottery.

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 2/17/2024 at 10:29 PM, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

The first step is to walk like Waha until Waha walks like you, is it not? (The second step is to be in concord that, yes, kicking ass and taking names is one of Waha’s dance steps.)

Mantling, hell yeah!

[Darius West]

On 2/27/2024 at 10:25 PM, mfbrandi said:

I like this.

• The ogres eat people.
   
• Waha’s people eat “beasts”
  but claim it is OK because they magically unpersoned them
  with a totally fair and above-board lottery.

Was this written by a Lunar Vegan? 🤣