Can a Shaman act as an intermediary for any god?

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Propitiative worship doesn't result in spells being offered or feats being understood, but it would be a common task.

To propitiate seems a simple — and perhaps a rational — decision to make, but in this brave new world in which worship is a skill, maybe it is not so simple actually to do it. There is a trick to it one may fail to grasp. The village wants to propitiate Mallia and avoid the plague, but it hasn’t got the knack and she cannot hear. When she turns a deaf ear, a particularly piercing and intricate prayer is required? 😉

[Joerg]

24 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

To propitiate seems a simple — and perhaps a rational — decision to make, but in this brave new world in which worship is a skill, maybe it is not so simple actually to do it. There is a trick to it one may fail to grasp. The village wants to propitiate Mallia and avoid the plague, but it hasn’t got the knack and she cannot hear. When she turns a deaf ear, a particularly piercing and intricate prayer is required? 😉

Propitiation may not work on the first try. The Heimskringla has a nice episode about the period they settled Jämtland, with three consecutive years of bad harvests. In the first year, they sacrificed some beasts, but the harvests remained bad, so in the second year they sacrificed a slave. Harvests still failed, so they sacrificed their king (aka chief priest). When that still failed, they got the hint and moved onward.

[soltakss]

20 hours ago, Eff said:

In good ol' RQ2, any time a shaman went looking for spirits, there was a 1% chance they would encounter a deity on the Spirit Contact table, with "Deity" POW and "Unlimited" INT, and the notes indicate that deities normally ignore spirits unless they "actively intrude on their sphere of activity".

Soltak Stormspear gained several new Runespells, became Illuminated, and gained some Nysalor Riddles through such interactions, they were great fun.

[Darius West]

On 3/28/2024 at 7:57 PM, metcalph said:

Probably Zzabur.

Zzabur is/was mortal.  We can be sure he broke caste, and used spells to increase his longevity.  Now, however he has been zapped out of existence along with Brithos since the Second Age.

Edited April 1 by Darius West

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Zzabur is/was mortal.  We can be sure he broke caste, and used spells to increase his longevity.  Now, however he has been zapped out of existence along with Brithos since the Second Age.

Zzbur is a God who thinks he is mortal.  And I doubt he has broken caste or destroyed himself.

[Akhôrahil]

I don't think shamans are any better at handling gods than your average initiate, unless that god specifically has a Spirit World version or connection (like Waha or Storm Bull, the ones that would have been classified as Great Spirits in the HW era). Most gods probably don't, although with Orlanth, Lightning Boy and Little Brother are reflections/incomplete versions of him in the Spirit World, and it's doubtful to what extent Kolat isn't just "Spirit Orlanth".

Edited April 1 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

On 3/29/2024 at 6:53 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

So impossible is not french shamanic but imo, it would be hard and in all cases the god reactions will probably be between neutral and hostile

I think you forget - curious!

Using the same analogy, many adventurous spirits (people) were able to get into the courts of the elite because they were different, interesting, etc,. and even often came to prominence in such courts.

 

For me, I think shamans most certainly could interact with the gods, and bargain for certain abilities in much the same way as any priest or initiate - usually trading POW for something (Rune spell??) Especially if the god is trying to maintain a foothold in the world - being able to expand their presence into an area (or way) not previously done may well be an attractive bargaining point (and, yes, I would require Bargain rolls to make it happen, along with reasonable gifts and exchanges).  And, like a spirit cult, I don't see why the shaman couldn't be a 1-person cult to said god...

 

On 3/29/2024 at 9:01 PM, mfbrandi said:

its R&D department,

I think it's less about R&D, and more Marketing.

[French Desperate WindChild]

30 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think you forget - curious!

Using the same analogy, many adventurous spirits (people) were able to get into the courts of the elite because they were different, interesting, etc,. and even often came to prominence in such courts.

an interesting point I hadn't in mind. However it may depends on both the shaman and the god.

Not sure Yelm will agree with you -or even to consider curiosity as a divine value, but Ernalda why not yes.

the danger then is to consider (imo) that any shaman is by default "a curiosity". I would in that case ask why the god (or its guards) may accept to meet the character. In all case that should be a challenge

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Not sure Yelm will agree with you — or even to consider curiosity as a divine value

Illuminated Yelm has no time for curiosity? Nysalor’s is the cult of asking questions, and on one way of looking at it, Nysalor is the sun (or a fragment or aspect of the sun). Perhaps before finding himself on the sharp end of Death, Yelm lacked curiosity, but now? (And perhaps Orlanth is more changer than changed or changing — a catalyst, rather than a subject of chemical change. Locked outside of Time, indeed.)

As for whether Yelm is interested in shamans:

• I find the incorporation of shamanism into the Yelm cult (the Golden Bow) particularly fascinating. We have a great celestial entity (the Sun God) who has several sons and messengers who are charged with watching and helping mortal beings. The shaman is an initiate who specializes in dealing with the spirit world … The Golden Bow is a path for a Yelm initiate who becomes a shaman.
  — Jeff Richard, Notes on Shamans

Maybe we can consider the Golden Bow to be a son of the sun in the same way as we (in these dark days) consider Vinga to be a daughter of the wind. And I concede that this says nothing about independent or “Horned God” shamans and the sun/Yelm.

Another way of looking at it is to see a god as a collection of short tape loops of musical clichés which can be mixed and amplified — edited if you are an experimental heroquester (otherwise read only) — to produce magical effects, with more sacrificed POW getting you a bigger PA. To that way of thinking, the gods have no interests — no mental states of any kind — and shamanism is just one approach to working in the studio.

[Eff]

Looking at the real world for a bit- (always a dangerous thing with Glorantha) shamanic religious practices that I am personally familiar with tend to rely on who or what you know, spiritually. An oungan or manbo must know the proper veve to call a particular lwa for a ceremony and invite them into a participant's body. A miko can be expected to deal with a kami that's enshrined in the jinja she works at, and familiar gods and spirits, but an unusual or foreign one requires some preparation and careful ritual work to understand them. 

But foreign kami and previously unknown lwa (perhaps most notoriously, Mademoiselle Charlotte) still find their way in regardless, and so the practitioners have to be able to learn their ways and record their veves, subject to the willingness of the god to be part of the system. If the god isn't willing to play ball (Mademoiselle Charlotte can be summoned, but she only helps people she takes a fancy to), there's not much you can do. Try again next year.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

Illuminated Yelm has no time for curiosity? Nysalor’s is the cult of asking questions, and on one way of looking at it, Nysalor is the sun (or a fragment or aspect of the sun). Perhaps before finding himself on the sharp end of Death, Yelm lacked curiosity, but now? (And perhaps Orlanth is more changer than changed or changing — a catalyst, rather than a subject of chemical change. Locked outside of Time, indeed.)

As for whether Yelm is interested in shamans:

• I find the incorporation of shamanism into the Yelm cult (the Golden Bow) particularly fascinating. We have a great celestial entity (the Sun God) who has several sons and messengers who are charged with watching and helping mortal beings. The shaman is an initiate who specializes in dealing with the spirit world … The Golden Bow is a path for a Yelm initiate who becomes a shaman.
  — Jeff Richard, Notes on Shamans

Maybe we can consider the Golden Bow to be a son of the sun in the same way as we (in these dark days) consider Vinga to be a daughter of the wind. And I concede that this says nothing about independent or “Horned God” shamans and the sun/Yelm.

Another way of looking at it is to see a god as a collection of short tape loops of musical clichés which can be mixed and amplified — edited if you are an experimental heroquester (otherwise read only) — to produce magical effects, with more sacrificed POW getting you a bigger PA. To that way of thinking, the gods have no interests — no mental states of any kind — and shamanism is just one approach to working in the studio.

well I was speaking about the 'traditionalist' Yelm, the one who ruled the world before this !$$* wind disturbed the perfect and endless world

Of course when I spoke about shaman vs Yelm, it was about shaman who were not initiate of Yelm. Would Yelm be curious by this weirdos hunshen shaman who just want to say to his clan "hey have you seen that ? now I can let the sun blink with my hand !"

That doesn't mean a hunshen shaman will always be "ejected", just that is not because a shaman is able to meet a god, a foreign god (I like @Eff's words), that of course the god will accept to discuss. it must be hard, it needs preparation. Hard like a heroquest. Preparation like a heroquest.

[Darius West]

On 3/28/2024 at 7:11 PM, EricW said:

Are there any gods who only communicate through priests and rune lords, whom a shaman cannot contact and worship?

That is a fair question.  I would suggest that worshipping non-spirit deities is hard for shamans.  That is not to say impossible.  The shaman will need a physical object that has been in contact with a deity during God Time (it can be a place).  When they set up their worship, the shaman is likely effectively creating an Associated Deity shrine, such as one might find in the temples of friendly deities.  They are unlikely to get more than one Rune spell from such a shrine, as while the shaman can effectively self-initiate by spending a point of POW to form a link, they simply don't know the full mythology and rites of the god in question, and so cannot do more.  The shamans are generally limited as to how many followers they can attract to their shrine as well.

Case in point, the Praxian shamans can contact Pole Star, who is an important solar deity with quite an arsenal of Rune Magic, but the Praxian shamans can only access the Rune Spell "Captain Souls".

Edited April 5 by Darius West

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 4/5/2024 at 9:43 AM, Darius West said:

non-spirit deities

by the way, is this notion still relevant  :  gods (like Orlanth or Yinkin) are different than great spirits (like Kolat or Fralar) ?

I have deliberately opted for Yinkin because I have a memory of a war between gods and spirits with Yinkin "betraying" the beasts spirits, choosing  Orlanth's side.

both "no" and "yes" make sense for me, with the only issue with "yes" is there is a question to answer "what is the difference then ?"

 

 

 

[metcalph]

14 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

by the way, is this notion still relevant  :  gods (like Orlanth or Yinkin) are different than great spirits (like Kolat or Fralar) ?

No.  It's more like the Gods have a preference for the type of magic that they give.  

 

 

[Darius West]

20 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

by the way, is this notion still relevant  :  gods (like Orlanth or Yinkin) are different than great spirits (like Kolat or Fralar) ?

I have deliberately opted for Yinkin because I have a memory of a war between gods and spirits with Yinkin "betraying" the beasts spirits, choosing  Orlanth's side.

both "no" and "yes" make sense for me, with the only issue with "yes" is there is a question to answer "what is the difference then ?"

The obvious answer is that spirits don't have an infinity rune, but gods do.  When a shaman sees a god, the god seems impossibly large and powerful, blotting out the horizon.  A shaman will know that this means they have an infinity rune, as they are part of the very weave of the world, and blessed by the Spider herself.

Now some major spirits have very high POW and enough connection to their rune to grant rune spells to those who venerate them with worship, but they have no infinity rune, so technically they can still be defeated in spirit combat, regardless of how unlikely that might be.  Gods can't be defeated in spirit combat.

At some level, Gods are just very big spirits, but they are also more than that.  Perhaps that is why shamans can't get much more magic out of the Gods than 1 point or so?  A lack of insight?  Personally I doubt it.  I think shamans can turn into rune priests if they learn the inner secrets of the spirit they venerate, but that is a form of "spiritual marriage" that most shamans are reluctant to enter into, as it would cost a good portion of their spiritual autonomy.

That's my opinion, anyhow.

[Akhôrahil]

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Gods can't be defeated in spirit combat.

This is an interesting suggestion, because they can be defeated in physical combat, on HeroQuests. Perhaps it's rather that you need the correct mythical framework (I don't know exactly who the Bad Man is, but shouldn't he be vastly stronger if he's the enemy of someone divine or godlike? this suggests that a mythic frame has been created where a would-be shaman has a chance of fending him off).

Edited April 7 by Akhôrahil

[EricW]

On 4/8/2024 at 8:55 AM, Akhôrahil said:

This is an interesting suggestion, because they can be defeated in physical combat, on HeroQuests. Perhaps it's rather that you need the correct mythical framework (I don't know exactly who the Bad Man is, but shouldn't he be vastly stronger if he's the enemy of someone divine or godlike? this suggests that a mythic frame has been created where a would-be shaman has a chance of fending him off).

Isn't facing the bad man part of awakening a fetch? Or maybe the horned man, for chaotic NPCs awakening a fetch?

Surely in a sense awakening a fetch must be a mini hero quest, at least as much as any initiation ceremony is. 

If a shaman meets a god on the spirit plane, are they protected by the compromise? Is there a risk of meeting a god who is not fully bound by the compromise, like encountering Wakboth if a Shaman wanders the spirit plane in Prax? Are gods accompanied by large spirits who might not feel bound to respect the compromise?

[mfbrandi]

A bit of non-canon but sympathetic text:

• At the heart of this world were the Runes, the building blocks of Gloranthan reality. Darkness, Storm, Sky. Fertility, Harmony, Death. The two-dozen or so Great Runes defined the pantheons and powers of the gods, explained the nature of spirits, and contained the transcendent essences of existence … “Magic” in Glorantha was how you related to these Runes, and this in turn shaped how you saw the world.  A Shaman would see the Runes as great primordial spirits to be bargained with, a Theist would see them as gods to be sacrificed to, and an atheistic Sorcerer would see them as impersonal essences to be studied and controlled.
  — Andrew Logan Montgomery, Review of HeroQuest Glorantha

So maybe:

• Rune “compound”, spirit, and god are not distinct entities, but those using the different terms view the same reality in different ways. Don’t ask whether Orlanth is a god, merely a spirit, or simply a compound of , , and , as none of these excludes any other.
   
• Don’t worry about scale. Don your Western sorcerer’s pointy hat — or your alchemist’s safety glasses — and think that whether you are dealing with a mountain of gunpowder or just a few grains, you are dealing with the same chemicals — the same “impersonal runic essences” and so the same gods or spirits. There is a lot of gunpowder in the world, but you don’t encounter it all at once; it is safe to set light to a small amount of it, and that doesn’t ignite all the other samples, but you are still dealing with gunpowder, the real thing, the whole essence.
   
• So a shaman can “encounter” Orlanth, or the Bad Man, or whoever “as a spirit” and beat it in spirit combat or successfully bargain with it — i.e. come to understand its essence — but that is not to say that anyone could stand against the strongest storm or all the winds in the world at once. To learn the magic of something is to grasp its quality, not to overcome everything instantiating that quality. And the whole god is present in the smallest sample, as carbon dioxide is present in a single molecule.
   
• Saying that the gods are locked out of time is a Platonic move: you can “bump into” atoms of carbon, but the “form” of carbon is not any of those atoms, nor is it all of them taken together — the Platonic form of carbon is not part of the furniture of the mundane world of time and the senses — and yet, so the story goes, each atom of carbon partakes of the form of carbon. So it is with any gust of Gloranthan wind and . Understanding of the natural world is mystified and confusion ensues as Gloranthan philosophers want the forms/runes/gods to be like and simultaneously unlike middle-sized dry goods, the ordinary clutter of the mundane world. The gods are like people. The gods are nothing like people.

Edited April 12 by mfbrandi
plurals

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, EricW said:

Surely in a sense awakening a fetch must be a mini hero quest, at least as much as any initiation ceremony is.

Yes, hence the idea that you can defeat god-like beings in Spirit Combat within a heroquest framework.

4 hours ago, EricW said:

If a shaman meets a god on the spirit plane, are they protected by the compromise? Is there a risk of meeting a god who is not fully bound by the compromise, like encountering Wakboth if a Shaman wanders the spirit plane in Prax? Are gods accompanied by large spirits who might not feel bound to respect the compromise?

1. Yes. Any gods you meet will act according to their behaviour in the myths. Possibly this might not hold true if you meet a heroquester who has taken on the role of the god, but even in this case, acting out of character opens them up for an identity challenge.

2. I say no. The god world and the herorealms have a timeless quality to them, where you can encounter entities before they get destroyed. I don't think the Spirit World shares this quality. Wakboth in a heroworld heroquest, yes; in a spirit world quest, no.

3. This seems perfectly reasonable. Although most spirits act only in accordance to their natures as well.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 4/7/2024 at 5:55 PM, Akhôrahil said:

This is an interesting suggestion, because they can be defeated in physical combat, on HeroQuests. Perhaps it's rather that you need the correct mythical framework (I don't know exactly who the Bad Man is, but shouldn't he be vastly stronger if he's the enemy of someone divine or godlike? this suggests that a mythic frame has been created where a would-be shaman has a chance of fending him off).

I am also not clear about who or what the Bad Man is.  But I doubt "he" is a god, because apprentice shamans bucking for a promotion can occasionally beat him in a round of spirit combat.  Prosopaedia page 13 says "powerful maleficient spirit" and shamans' special foe, who seeks to halt the dissemination of magical knowledge. 

What is Bad Man's relation to the Horned God, or Horned Man, since both terms are used?  Evidently a perpetual but inferior opponent.  Or a punching bag, always sprining back to be whacked by the next apprentice. 

Who is the Horned Man and why the confusion of names?

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 3/28/2024 at 7:33 AM, svensson said:

I would submit that most gods communicate through their priestly hierarchy exclusively unless the faith has a shamanic component... 

Does that mean that mere Initiates cannot use Divination?  

Does that mean there are no portentous dreams except for priests?

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

I guess — I don’t claim to be any kind of expert — that you do it with proxies, with someone “identifying as” Wakboth, as W his bad self is out of commission. The question then is, who is the proxy if a Wakboth cult is not currently viable? Who plays the rôle of a god besides their cultists? I freely confess that the answer is above my pay grade. (I imagine one meta-reason for a cult of Wakboth being declared impossible is to prevent PC diabolists.)

Argrath’s LBQ — like its prototype — is different because at that point the Devil is loose.

Maybe see the thing with another perspective :

a) when you heroquest you meet the god. or a proxy but for you it should be the god because if you start to doubt that’s not the god, you are in a path where at the end you will remember you are not wearing your god’s aspect but just a wood mask (or tattoo or … any mundane gear) and your quest may fail only because this.

b) when you meet the god, you may learn things (for example how to cast runespell) so why not you learn a wakboth runespell 

c) then you come back and now you are in the mundane world and you know how to cast Wakboth spell

d) so as any « good evil », you cast the spell… the only issue is there is no one who will answer (no Wakboth) because now he is not here. Then no one answer, you are  the gate , fine but the god’s energy will not use the gate just because there is no energy now

e) no energy no spell effect

f) no spell effect = no need to worship no one

g) of course meeting a chaos god may give you some chaotic feature because even if Wakboth is not any more, chaos is still here.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Does that mean that mere Initiates cannot use Divination?  

Does that mean there are no portentous dreams except for priests?

 

Initiates are part of god's hierarchy, though not part of the church. Initiates have donated POW, made the commitment oaths, and have some dedication to the faith. They are not ordained but they can conduct worship if no Rune level is available. They can cast Divination [it is a Common Rune Spell] but only via their cult connections. For example, an Orlanth initiate cannot use Divination for information that would rightfully belong to Yelmalio, etc. Just because an opposing Yelmalion initiate breathes Air does not mean that Orlanth knows what he's up to - - this works vice-versa of course... Just because an Orlanth initiate is working under Yelm's light doesn't mean that a Sky pantheon initiate knows anything about him either.

So, yes, Initiates can get Divination and/or prophetic dreams from their deity, but they may have to consult with the priesthood to understand the meanings [aka 'failed the Cult Lore skill roll to understand the allegories'].

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

Initiates are part of god's hierarchy, though not part of the church. Initiates have donated POW, made the commitment oaths, and have some dedication to the faith. They are not ordained but they can conduct worship if no Rune level is available. They can cast Divination [it is a Common Rune Spell] but only via their cult connections. For example, an Orlanth initiate cannot use Divination for information that would rightfully belong to Yelmalio, etc. Just because an opposing Yelmalion initiate breathes Air does not mean that Orlanth knows what he's up to - - this works vice-versa of course... Just because an Orlanth initiate is working under Yelm's light doesn't mean that a Sky pantheon initiate knows anything about him either.

So, yes, Initiates can get Divination and/or prophetic dreams from their deity, but they may have to consult with the priesthood to understand the meanings [aka 'failed the Cult Lore skill roll to understand the allegories'].

Yes, I know what initiate means.  And I know that priest is essentially synonymous with intermediary.  What got me was the "only" part, since as I understand it if there is no ordained priest available SOME initiate will lead Worship on appropriate days.  And initiates can divine, can consecrate (temporarily), and more important for game purposes they can use the god's powers (rune magic).

 

[svensson]

But initiates are not ordained in the priesthood... they're committed worshipers only. Yes, they can worship without a priest/ess, but there are functions they can't do... My point in my first comment on the thread is that Shamans with no connection to deity cannot access the deity's magic. Initiates have a connection with the deity granting the powers and a place in a cult's hierarchy that shamans simply don't have.

There are exceptions, of course, Kolatings sometimes have access to Orlanth-given Rune magic for one example. Shamans can Summon a Specific Ancestor to gain access to a deity's Rune magic if the shaman knows of the Specific Ancestor by name. A shaman would have summon his ancestor 'Bob, son of Joe', not 'I summon one of my ancestors who was a Barntar initiate'.

I suppose we'd need a mechanic to sort out whether or not a given Shaman knows of a specific ancestor that was an initiate of a specific deity. Off the top of my head that would probably be a Customs [Own], Cult Lore, or Insight [Own] roll, probably requiring a Special or Crit success.