Can a Shaman act as an intermediary for any god?

[EricW]

Are there any gods who only communicate through priests and rune lords, whom a shaman cannot contact and worship?

[metcalph]

Probably Zzabur.

[svensson]

I would submit that most gods communicate through their priestly hierarchy exclusively unless the faith has a shamanic component... Some Hunter gods have a shamanic branch of the faith, for example. But the whole point of having a priesthood is to make the powers the god offers exclusive to it and not available to just anybody with a fetch.

However, there is an oblique path shamans can use to access some theistic powers, that of summoning specific ancestors and receiving Rune spells through them.

[Geoff R Evil]

I would add that, even if a gm allows shamanic contact with a god it would only be if there was strong runic alignments….or if the god wanted something from the shaman….beware Gods with an ask!

[jajagappa]

To shamans, most gods will be "villains". They want something from the shaman (their soul!) which the shaman doesn't usually want to give up. So if your shaman encounters them, the gods will be devious and dangerous, perhaps offering Faustian bargains.

[mfbrandi]

15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

They want something from the shaman (their soul!) … the gods will be devious and dangerous, perhaps offering Faustian bargains.

But forewarned is forearmed — or in Orlanth’s case … well, you can make the punning adjustment, yourself — and the theist schmuck on the Clapham omnibus meets the gods “blind” (or at least “blinkered”)?

[Ynneadwraith]

2 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

I would add that, even if a gm allows shamanic contact with a god it would only be if there was strong runic alignments….or if the god wanted something from the shaman….beware Gods with an ask!

This is the way I see all interactions with gods in Glorantha happening (whether someone is a true believer or not). Providing magic to their followers is pretty much the only way they can still influence the world of Time, so they're going to use it to drive forward their agenda.

All gods have an 'ask'. Some people are just so blinkered that they cannot fathom that their god's ask might be something that's not in their individual best interest...

Though I do like my worldbuilding a little on the Lovecraftian side...

[mfbrandi]

6 hours ago, EricW said:

Are there any gods who only communicate through priests and rune lords, whom a shaman cannot contact and worship?

I love this question. Is it asking something like — please, do not mistake me for a theologian — whether Gloranthan reality is “catholic” (for some or all gods, a priestly class is required to interact with them) or “protestant” (with the right techniques, anyone can interact with any god — whether or not that is wise, whether or not the god welcomes the interaction)?

Malkioni might be a special case, taking neither the protestant nor the catholic line. According to them: the Invisible God is unreachable no matter who you are; anyone can contact the other so-called gods … but they are not really gods, as there can be only one.

Presumably, stroppy shamans — and I like to think they all have attitude — think that self-proclaimed gods are just spirits with pretensions and could be contacted.

As for worship, surely there is a lost Godlearner document detailing experiments to track the energy flow in worship — does it ever flow through the priest, and if it does, must it?

[mfbrandi]

12 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

All gods have an ‘ask’.

Or — to take the sorcerer’s view? — all tools have their limitations. Your problem isn’t much like a nail, but unfortunately the god/magic/tool you have hold of is very much a hammer; watch where you put your thumb. Experimental heroquests as attempts to reforge the tools.

[Ynneadwraith]

37 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Or — to take the sorcerer’s view? — all tools have their limitations. Your problem isn’t much like a nail, but unfortunately the god/magic/tool you have hold of is very much a hammer; watch where you put your thumb. Experimental heroquests as attempts to reforge the tools.

Now that's a beautifully Mostali way of looking at things.

Or, perhaps, a distortion of Mostali philosophy through a human-centric viewpoint (which fits neatly with that being the origin of sorcery). Mostali heroquest to reforge the world engine (the One True Tool). That's the end-goal of Mostali sorcery. Try teaching that to a human student that's only half paying attention, spending the rest of the time daydreaming about being a conqueror, and you could get something like 'you can heroquest to reforge these so-called gods into tools you can use to further your own power'.

I also like the insinuation that Orlanth is just an air conditioner that's got way above its station...

Edited March 28 by Ynneadwraith

[g33k]

My take is that the biggest difference between the "Gods" vs. the "Greater Spirits" is that the "Gods" mostly either (this list off the top of my head):

• have distinct interests in mortals / the mundane world
• prefer to deal with mortals in a theistic way
• simply find it most efficient/effective to deal theistically

(or all of these, of course).  It's not that they cannot interact via the Shamanic methods; but it isn't the way they usually do it, and they usually have their own very-good reasons for the way they do it.  So if you try to Shamanically-approach a "Greater Spirit" who prefers to be approached theistically (i.e. a "God") it's kind of like going up to a major political/business/religious figure saying "hey, you asshole, gimme some of your time."

This isn't likely to be your best approach; take a -50% on all rolls interacting with this "Greater Spirit."

As always, YGWV

Edited March 28 by g33k

[jajagappa]

Once upon a time, Greg described his views on how the approaches differed. You can see an overview of this in Arcane Lore p.15, but did appear in a number of other earlier sources that he drafted. The distinctions/approaches he provided in that work were:

Liturgism; Venerative worship and sorcery magic

• Veneration is the method of worship. It is submission of the individual to the All, usually through the agency of social institutions whose leaders (sorcerers) can direct a portion of this veneration energy to perform magic.

Animism; Ecstatic worship and shamanic magic

• Worship includes any ecstatic behavior that merges the person and world, such as trance inducing dances, deprivations, possessions, or other methods of merging with spirits or nature. Ecstasy is the personal experience of the Life Force inducing a transcendent event.
• Integration and rejection are the methodologies. Integration of the individual into the large world is experienced in the ecstatic moment, and subsequent training and experiences allow integration for longer periods of time and with larger entities. This results in magical actions performed by the person without effort. Integration of entities into the collective "us" is mutually rewarding, and internal adoption of disembodied entities is necessary to progress towards higher religious power and purpose, which is merger with Nature or one of the Great Spirits.
• In dealing with outsiders, whether "Them" people, spiritual, or demonic; interaction may be in the form of begging, bargaining, tricking, conquering, requesting, or surrendering. If successful, the natural entity or spirit merges with the shaman, granting its powers or its service.

Theism; Sacrificial worship and divine magic

• Theism is the practice of making sacrifice of time, attention, and material goods to cooperate with deities. Deities (gods and goddesses) are entities that underlie the whole world.
• Worship of a god consists of sacrifices to it to strengthen it, and to guarantee (as much as possible) that it will deliver its magic when promised. Sacrifices include time, by participating in regular ceremonies; material goods, both as sacrifices and to support priesthood; and includes following customary behavior and evaluations of right and wrong.
• Cooperation with the Greater Powers is the primary method of Sacrifice. Following the actions established in Creation, people engage in a non-equal but reciprocal relationship with the immortal powers of the world.

 

[Malin]

What are gods but greater spirits trapped by time?

[French Desperate WindChild]

See the gods as emperors or great kings. Forget that they are different in nature, just keep in mind that they have more powers and a court (their priests)

 

So, now imagine that an unknown (a shaman) wants to talk to this emperor.

I would say it is difficult. In some case, due to the culture (the pantheon), the emperor himself (the god), and the period (the cult) the access may be more or less difficult.

For example it is very easy to speak with the actual french temporary king (yes we use the nickname "president" but it is the same)

And I m pretty sure it was impossible to speak with the previous emperor of China.

But in all cases, once our "noone" meet the emperor.. What could think the emperor ? Who is this guy who disturbs me ? Why should I hear him ?

 

Now remember that our emperor is in fact a god. With all the dimensions, will all the divine powers.  What will happen ?

 

So impossible is not french shamanic but imo, it would be hard and in all cases the god reactions will probably be between neutral and hostile

 

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Malin said:

What are gods but greater spirits trapped by time?

I wonder whether we need the qualifier “greater”. Cannot an “insignificant spider spirit” and “the greatest of the great gods” be the same entity? Power and range of magic available to practitioners may be a function more of the size of cult, its R&D department, and its knack of parting worshippers from their POW than the nature and power of the god/spirit. If a shamanic one-person band cannot access sunspear that may be less about some supposed inability to contact Yelm and more about their status as sole trader (and not grand mucky-muck of the solar religion). Maybe … but this is not meant as a heresy.

[Squaredeal Sten]

All right, to the shaman gods are just very powerful spirits with a known agenda.  But the shamanic way is to dominate weak spirits and bargain with strong spirits.  A god must have near infinite power from the shamans perspective.  The shaman has no hope of dominating, and on the bargaining path - what does the god want that the shaman has?  His soul and perhaps some spirits. 

To bargain his soul is to join the god's cult (which some gods will accept). 

Otherwise maybe the shaman had control of a cult spirit, which would be a bargaining chip.  Or maybe the vastly more powerful god doesn't feel like bargaining today, and  will dominate the shaman.  It is risky approaching gods in the spirit world.

 

Edited March 29 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing: paragraphing for clarity.

[jajagappa]

25 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Or maybe the vastly more powerful god doesn't feel like bargaining today, and  will dominate the shaman.  It is risky approaching gods in the spirit world.

Much like Leto II in Children of Dune in finding the path between being dominated or overwhelmed by the inner spirits (the many spirits and demons of the Spirit World), being consumed by the worms or destroyed in the desert storms (the god powers), or integrating the whole into himself so that he can stand face-to-face with the god and stay himself.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Having said that, I think it is too bad that the question was posed in terms of a generic shaman.  It seems likely to me that most player shamans will be shamans of Waha or of Daka Fal. Either of those has already given parts of his soul to that god, and if she/he/they wants to approach that god the easiest path is through Worship.  The god is already on their side and giving  benefits, too.   If the shaman approaches that god in the spirit world it should be handled as an act of worship.

So the cult shaman's only remaining question is about other gods.  Now, I am not speaking canon here but IMHO a god can probably read a mortal's spirit like a  book. Links to gods will be visible.  So when the Waha shaman approaches another god, the likely reaction will be shown by the cult compatibility table.  

But what about shamans of spirit cults, or completely freelance shamans?  They are not used to dealing with god level spirits, and we should consider that they avoid doing so.  The risk of being gobbled up by a random god in the spirit world is high.  

 

Edited April 9 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 3/29/2024 at 9:38 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Having said that, I think it is too bad that the question was posed in terms of a generic shaman.  It seems likely to me that most player shamans will be shamans of Waha or of Daka Fal. Either of those has already given parts of his soul to that god, and if she/he/they wants to approach that god the easiest path is through Worship.  The god is already on their side and giving  benefits, too.   If the shaman approaches that god in the spirit world it should be handled as an act of worship.

So the cult shaman's only remaining question is about other gods.  Now, I am not speaking canon here but IMHO a god can probably read a mortal's spirit like a  book (Consider the shamanic powers, then amplify and add for a god.)  . Links to gods will be visible.  So when the Waha shaman approaches another god, the likely reaction will be shown by the cult compatibility table.  

But what about shamans of spirit cults, or completely freelance shamans?  They are not used to dealing with god level spirits, and we should consider that they avoid doing so.  The risk of being gobbled up iby a random god in the spirit world is high.  

 

dou le post. mods please delete.

Edited April 9 by Squaredeal Sten

[jajagappa]

35 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But what about shamans of spirit cults, or completely freelance shamans?  They are not used to dealing with god level spirits, and we should consider that they avoid doing so.  The risk of being gobbled up iby a random god in the spirit world is high.  

This is part of what the Shaman teaches their apprentices. It is why they teach Spirit Lore, Spirit Travel, and Spirit Dance so they can recognize when they start entering the region of a God and move away. As the shaman becomes more powerful, and has bound lesser spirits, they begin to accumulate other tools to use in their Spirit World adventures. If for instance, they end up confronting a god unexpectedly, they might throw away a lesser spirit as a distraction or sacrifice to delay the God and facilitate their own escape.

[soltakss]

Quote

Can a Shaman act as an intermediary for any god?

In my Glorantha, Shamans can interact with any deity by contacting that deity and negotiating either personal Runespells or Runespells for a Spirit Cult. Not that Malkion probably doesn't count as a deity in this case, unless he grants Runespells in which case he can be contacted.

On 3/28/2024 at 8:11 AM, EricW said:

Are there any gods who only communicate through priests and rune lords, whom a shaman cannot contact and worship?

Most deities have Priests or Rune Lords but they can still be contacted by Shamans.

On 3/28/2024 at 12:53 PM, Geoff R Evil said:

I would add that, even if a gm allows shamanic contact with a god it would only be if there was strong runic alignments….or if the god wanted something from the shaman….beware Gods with an ask!

Shamans generally have few Runic ties. If they do then they probably belong to a Spirit Tradition and find it easier to contact similar deities. However,  a Shaman of a Water-Rune based Spirit Tradition could, in theory, contact a Fire deity, it is just harder.

 

[John Biles]

I would expect a Shaman could try to negotiate with any God of whatever pantheon he is linked to, so a shaman of Kolat could approach the Storm Gods, though he will likely end up with a poor bargain.

 

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Daka Fal … already given parts of his soul to that god

On 3/28/2024 at 2:26 PM, jajagappa said:

To shamans, most gods will be “villains”.

Ah, but whisper it: Daka Fal is no god; Daka Fal is us. The story of Daka Fal/Grandparent Mortal (and possibly Malkion, too) is the finger pointing at the villainous gods/wanton boys and calling them out for their murderous sport, isn’t it? And the gods, too, will have to look into that unrevealing mirror and face judgement, won’t they?

[Eff]

In good ol' RQ2, any time a shaman went looking for spirits, there was a 1% chance they would encounter a deity on the Spirit Contact table, with "Deity" POW and "Unlimited" INT, and the notes indicate that deities normally ignore spirits unless they "actively intrude on their sphere of activity". Now, the shaman obviously couldn't make such a deity a controlled spirit, without at least "Deity" POW of their own, 1 POW left over for their body, and 1 POW in the spirit world. But the deity could potentially reverse the equation, offering POW for service in the same way shamans do to spirits and with similar termination conditions on the contract. Within RQ2, this would come down to the referee's decision about what the deity thinks of shamans, of course. But it seems to me very relevant to the Arcane Lore thoughts on "integration" and "rejection".

[Joerg]

A bit outside of the original question, but just about any holy person should be able to lead propitiative worship to whichever entity that requires it, whether lowly spirit or overpowering otherworldly entity.

Propitiative worship doesn't result in spells being offered or feats being understood, but it would be a common task.