How corrupt does a Lunar Chaotic Have to Be to Draw Attention?

[Ynneadwraith]

3 minutes ago, theconfusingeel said:

I assume turning into a broo means you become a goat broo

Why stick with a goat when the world is your oyster (or hummingbird...or even Bat).

[Ian Absentia]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

My own interpretation [of a Yanafal Tarnils Sword becoming a "broo"] is that they do grow horns and goat feet.  I am not sure about the psychological effects, because they have to pass through Illumination, but  I admit I am thinking about how to GM it.  Another consideration is whether they are disease carriers, but I am thinking that  depends on whether they are Malliants.  I will GM it that they are seen as broos by others, because if they are not then what is the point?.

Broo-ness seems to be open to wide interpretation, but I've always generally interpreted it according to two criteria:

1) Corrupted, physically and morally, by Malia the Mistress of Disease Thed the Mother of Broos and goddess of rape, being an agent of her divine nature.
2) A hybrid physical and moral form, combining Man and Beast in degraded manner.

The base template, at least in popular Gloranthan culture, appears to be a randy goat, (almost?) always male, and (almost) never known for subtlety.  I don't know what to make of the idea of under-cover broos, and the notion of Yanafal Tarnils Runelords becoming broos is news to me (though I don't doubt that broos might become initiates of YT).  Debate should ensue comparing and contrasting the nature of the broo with that of the beastfolk, and the confusion that must cause among the common folk of Glorantha.

!i!

Edited May 24 by Ian Absentia

[Ian Absentia]

29 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Why stick with a goat when the world is your oyster (or hummingbird...or even Bat).

Let us not consider the lowly oyster-broo.  Guaranteed to induce shellfish poisoning.

!i!

[Joerg]

Becoming a broo might involve as little as receiving a different reproductive organ, nascent horns, possibly a more hirsute skin condition and possibly some weird joints.

[AndreJarosch]

2 hours ago, theconfusingeel said:

I assume turning into a broo means you become a goat broo
otherwise becoming an ogre might make more sense

Since there are so many different kind of Broos (chicken broo, frog broo, etc.) why goat? 
Just because it is the most commonly known form?

If becoming a broo means growing horns and goat feet, why aren´t they call it "becoming a satyr"?


IMHO becoming X is just a metaphor. 
If you eat humans, you are a cannibal, and if you do it on a regular basis that proves that you are an ogre. 
If you rape someone, you are a rapist (and exiled or killed), and if you do it reaccuringly it proves that you are a broo, no matter what if you have horns, hooves or how you look like. 

That is what confuses me about "becoming a broo". 

Edited May 24 by AndreJarosch

[Ian Absentia]

3 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

If becoming a broo means growing horns and goat feet, why aren´t they call it "becoming a satyr"?

A satyr and a broo meet in the woods.  They recognise certain familiarities, but reject each other.  Why don't they acknowledge each other as brethren?

Me?  I recognise the goat-ish form as the baseline, for whatever mythical or cultural reason, as the physical manifestation of "broo-ness".  Not fair to the goats of the world, but that's just how it looks on the outside.  And that "goat"-like form is what corrupts and debases the Beast or Man that falls prey to it, and I see nothing subtle about its manifestation or the mythical events that inspired it.

!i!

Edited May 24 by Ian Absentia
Syntax

[theconfusingeel]

1 hour ago, AndreJarosch said:

If becoming a broo means growing horns and goat feet, why aren´t they call it "becoming a satyr"?

 

because satyrs are deers in glorantha
Edit: apperantly I missremembered, they either have goat or horse legs.
also noticing that it's a question aimed towards me, I imagine it's a full change because there's nothing stopping a chaos tainted human from being a rapist or doing any of the stuff chaos drives broo to do, I don't see why becoming a broo doesn't literally mean the victim becomes a broo.
 

Edited May 24 by theconfusingeel

[Eff]

Why are the Yanafal Tarnils cultists becoming broos, specifically? If they're undergoing chaotic mutation, why is it only into the form of a metaphor for being a rapist? 

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Eff said:

Why are the Yanafal Tarnils cultists becoming broos, specifically? If they're undergoing chaotic mutation, why is it only into the form of a metaphor for being a rapist? 

Anybody who gains a chaotic feature has a chance of becoming a Broo.  As per the Red Book of Magic

Quote

Each additional Chaotic feature taken results in a
cumulative 10% chance that the caster permanently changes
into a broo. This transformation cannot be resisted or
altered. Roll for the transformation immediately upon the
assumption of another Chaotic feature.

p24

It is not a metaphor for becoming a rapist, it is a metaphor being part of the Conspiracy of the Unholy Trio.

 

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Anybody who gains a chaotic feature has a chance of becoming a Broo.  As per the Red Book of Magic

It is not a metaphor for becoming a rapist, it is a metaphor being part of the Conspiracy of the Unholy Trio.

 

That simply pushes the question back to "why exactly is it only the metaphor for rapists that Chaos can mutate you into?", leaving aside your insistence that said metaphor isn't there. There is an immediately relevant NPC, one General Roan-Ur, who seems like a fairly easy case for another kind of chaotic mutation, becoming a literal cannibal ogre from being a metaphorical ogre devouring the lives of his troops. And many other Chaotic entities that would seem like even more natural things to mutate into, like gorp. So- why broos and only broos?

[Ian Absentia]

22 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Anybody who gains a chaotic feature has a chance of becoming a Broo.  As per the Red Book of Magic

Oh. 😕

But why?  To be more specific, unless there's a clear connection to Thed (I mentioned Malia up-thread, mea culpa), why are chaotic features directly connected to broo-ness?

!i!

Edited May 24 by Ian Absentia

[metcalph]

20 minutes ago, Eff said:

That simply pushes the question back to "why exactly is it only the metaphor for rapists that Chaos can mutate you into?", leaving aside your insistence that said metaphor isn't there. There is an immediately relevant NPC, one General Roan-Ur, who seems like a fairly easy case for another kind of chaotic mutation, becoming a literal cannibal ogre from being a metaphorical ogre devouring the lives of his troops. And many other Chaotic entities that would seem like even more natural things to mutate into, like gorp. So- why broos and only broos?

Roan-Ur isn't canon and the details of his villainy aren't set in stone - I do not know whether he was born an Ogre or became one through participation in atrocities (I have criticized the Wendigo hypothesis in the past).  People who gain chaotic features do so by being part of the participation in the Conspiracy of the Unholy Trio whose original participants were Broos.  This has nothing to do whether they have raped anyone.

If there were another method of becoming gaining chaotic features - lets say a Kralori version involving the eating of corpses - then people who gain chaotic features through that method might become Ogres instead of Broos.  I have postulated something similar for the Borists in the past.  But the Conspiracy of the Unholy Trio would still be the most common version in Dragon Pass and elsewhere and that is why chaotics are likely to become Broos.

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

I don't think there's a good Watsonian explanation for why you explode into a broo as the result of getting chaos features. It's just "somebody thought this would be a cool effect for the spell to have: randomly roll to see if the character becomes unplayable!" One of the limitations of the popular system, as it were. You can try to rehabilitate it or give it an interesting explanation, but if it causes problems (like extrapolating all-Broo regiments of Scarlet Scimitars), toss it out on its ear. MGF and all.

(I shall be hypocritical and toss out an explanation anyway: the first Broos were, in fact, human, and the condition of being a run-of-the-mill Broo is just what happens when a person gets parts of their soul scraped out and replaced with Chaos. Then there's a whole lot of interbreeding with animals that goes on over generations, and then ta-da! Modern Broo herds.)

[radmonger]

26 minutes ago, Eff said:

That simply pushes the question back to "why exactly is it only the metaphor for rapists that Chaos can mutate you into?"

yes, there may be some over-generalisation going on there. YT -> Humakt -> Ragnalar is a pretty direct mythic connection; I think that makes YT a broo's second cousin.

Other Lunar cults will have closer connections to other forms of chaos. So they may have other thing go wrong when they make inappropriate use of unsanctioned mutations.

 

[Eff]

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Roan-Ur isn't canon and the details of his villainy aren't set in stone - I do not know whether he was born an Ogre or became one through participation in atrocities (I have criticized the Wendigo hypothesis in the past).  People who gain chaotic features do so by being part of the participation in the Conspiracy of the Unholy Trio whose original participants were Broos.  This has nothing to do whether they have raped anyone.

If there were another method of becoming gaining chaotic features - lets say a Kralori version involving the eating of corpses - then people who gain chaotic features through that method might become Ogres instead of Broos.  I have postulated something similar for the Borists in the past.  But the Conspiracy of the Unholy Trio would still be the most common version in Dragon Pass and elsewhere and that is why chaotics are likely to become Broos.

"People who gain chaotic features do so by being part of the participation in the Conspiracy of the Unholy Trio whose original participants were Broos."

This would not apply to anyone who had Chaos Gift cast upon them, which is a source that is not related to Thed, Ragnaglar, or Mallia. So this fails on its own terms. 

In any case, I am asking from an out-of-universe perspective- why is it the case that chaos mutation only works in this way, as a creative decision? Especially given the context of the multiple Stafford statements about what, in his opinion, does turn you into a broo?

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Eff said:

"People who gain chaotic features do so by being part of the participation in the Conspiracy of the Unholy Trio whose original participants were Broos."

This would not apply to anyone who had Chaos Gift cast upon them, which is a source that is not related to Thed, Ragnaglar, or Mallia. So this fails on its own terms. 

But Chaos Gift does not cause you to become a Broo.  Only the Spell Chaos Feature does.

1 minute ago, Eff said:

In any case, I am asking from an out-of-universe perspective- why is it the case that chaos mutation only works in this way, as a creative decision? Especially given the context of the multiple Stafford statements about what, in his opinion, does turn you into a broo?

I just gave you my answer.  If you don't like it, too bad.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

• 1 in 10 initiates have a permanent Chaos Gift if they choose to take a gift = Chaos Rune 20%
• 1 in 10 Scimitars have a permanent Chaos Gift if they choose to take a gift

This assumes that one in 10 initiates choose Gift #10.  The actual fraction could be lower.  Or higher.

It will be interesting in a year or so to poll RQG players who run Yanafail to find out which gifts are the most popular.  I'm guessing that #3, increase a raiseable characteristic, will be very popular. 

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Eff said:

Which comes from Primal Chaos. Not from any of the Unholy Trio. But the childishness of your response makes this clearly a waste of breath on my part.

But *who* brought the Primal Chaos into the world?  Could it be... the Unholy Trio?  But as for the allegation of childishness, you aren't doing so great by recklessly declaring a non-canonical character to be a convincing rebuttal as well as a slapdash conflation of Chaos Gift with Chaos Feature.

[EricW]

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

But *who* brought the Primal Chaos into the world?  Could it be... the Unholy Trio?  But as for the allegation of childishness, you aren't doing so great by recklessly declaring a non-canonical character to be a convincing rebuttal as well as a slapdash conflation of Chaos Gift with Chaos Feature.

I'd always assumed the goddess met something horrible as part of her goddess quest, possibly an encounter with Krjalk who convinced her she needed to embrace chaos to heal the world, but I've never read a description of that event. Is there a canonical explanation for how and why the goddess embraced chaos?

[theconfusingeel]

3 hours ago, EricW said:

I'd always assumed the goddess met something horrible as part of her goddess quest, possibly an encounter with Krjalk who convinced her she needed to embrace chaos to heal the world, but I've never read a description of that event. Is there a canonical explanation for how and why the goddess embraced chaos?

She's chaotic because she was created during time.
Her godquest has 7 steps:
-She enters the godtime
-She is defeated by some demon, in the lunar way it's Gorgorma, but I've heard it be Wakbot too
-She meats Arachne Solara
-She met Nysalor and gbaji, and separated the two or something along the lines. Either way she was illuminated.
-She tamed the sky bear and rode it
-She defeats the demon from the second step
-She reenters the mortal world riding the bat

[Ali the Helering]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

But *who* brought the Primal Chaos into the world?  Could it be... the Unholy Trio? 

IIRC Primal Chaos predates the Unholy Trio, owning the Chaos rune before it passes to Wakboth.  Since it is Primal it already existed, and the world arose out of the Void of Chaos in the first place.  Primal Chaos is implicit to the world, nobody needed to 'bring it'. 

[AndreJarosch]

3 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

IIRC Primal Chaos predates the Unholy Trio, owning the Chaos rune before it passes to Wakboth.  Since it is Primal it already existed, and the world arose out of the Void of Chaos in the first place.  Primal Chaos is implicit to the world, nobody needed to 'bring it'. 

Prior to the deeds of the Unholy Trio Primal Chaos existed OUTSIDE of the natural world after it was created. The Natural World was a bubble or encapsulated sphere inside the Primal Chaos, but Primal Chaos was not inside this Natural World. The Unholy Trio made a crack into the shell of the buddle, which allowed the Chaos to enter. 

[David Scott]

18 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

What does "have turned into broos." mean in this?

If it happens to one of my players, i'd use this:

18 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Will their behaviour change to that of broos (smeaing feaces all over themselves, getting more agressive, always horny)?

No. that will depend on their man/beast rune and other traits.

18 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Will their appearance change (do they grow horns)?

I'd say that it basically changes their form in into the standard goat broo - goat head, horns and hooves (3pt armour on head). As broo stats and human stats are roughly the same, i'd keep those as is.

18 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Or will either of this change, but their can be detected as broos, as seen as broos by others, etc.?

They look like a broo. At this point they are likely illuminated so how they detect is up to their illumination skills.

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

This assumes that one in 10 initiates choose Gift #10.  The actual fraction could be lower.  Or higher.

Yes, my back of a beer mat exercise assumed it used the D10 table and was random. 

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Prior to the deeds of the Unholy Trio Primal Chaos existed OUTSIDE of the natural world after it was created. The Natural World was a bubble or encapsulated sphere inside the Primal Chaos, but Primal Chaos was not inside this Natural World. The Unholy Trio made a crack into the shell of the buddle, which allowed the Chaos to enter. 

This rather depends upon your understanding of the miniscus of a bubble.  I see it as implicit to it, not separate from it.

Quoting the Well of Daliath item on the Creation:

The egg of the world was formed in a way which even gods cannot understand. It was suspended in the Void of Chaos, an emptiness pregnant now with potential. The egg opened. From within emerged It, the primal androgyne, an infinite dragon. The entire cosmos and two other beings came from It. They were Maker and Grower.  Maker and Grower were each a creative energy, and each sought to improve the place where they resided. They used their powers so that the world grew and was built greater.  Maker and Grower, often called The Two, rose from The One, and from them rose The Third. Born was the Great Goddess, Glorantha, mother of the world which bears her name, who is the source of all mystery and compassion.

If the gods don't understand it then I doubt we are going to.  However, it is worth noting that these beings emerged from the egg, not within it, and therefore existed within Primal Chaos.  Again, Jeff in the Well

They wove a great magical ritual of potency far greater than anything before accomplished, for they had discovered the wonder and power of Primal Chaos, and used it to magically strengthen themselves for what was to come. They then engaged in their rituals of Chaos-birth.

One cannot "discover the wonder and power of" something without having some contact with it, and there is no indication that they broke into Glorantha from the outside.  Therefore they utilised the power of something to hand, Primal Chaos, within the world.  The cracks allowed Chaos to attempt to swamp the world, not to enter it.