RuneQuest 6 vs BRP for Base System

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, nDervish said:

Because the combat Special Effects in RQ6 are one of my all-time favorite things I've ever seen in RPG mechanics and I have no nostalgia for older versions, having never played them - my first experience with BRP systems was buying RQ6 and BGB, then sitting down and reading both of them.  I also prefer RQ6's stat+stat skill baselines and opposed rolls over the resistance table, so that pretty much makes it the obvious choice for my base system.  There are parts I port over from BGB, MW, etc., such as skill ticks, but, for all the really big core chunks, I like the RQ6 version better.

I also like the Special Effect. Loved them since I fist saw the critical hit system in Usagi Yojimbo (pretty much the same thing except you can get multiple specials). However I don't like opposed rolls, and I like the resistance table. I like category modifiers as they make attributes important.  I also prefer the RQ2/RQ3 magic systems. So that's why I use RQ3 for my base and import other stuff that I need.  

[jux]

OQ2 and Renaissance are the same thing. This is what I prefer and want the BRP Essentials to be based on.

[Warthur]

5 minutes ago, jux said:

OQ2 and Renaissance are the same thing. This is what I prefer and want the BRP Essentials to be based on.

Eh, not really. Renaissance includes a bunch of stuff that OQ2 doesn't. In particular, so far as I can make out Renaissance makes social class and professional mandatory in a way which OQ2 doesn't, and Renaissance has a basic skill/advanced skill split that OpenQuest doesn't do).

But they're very close siblings.

[jux]

I meant it in "base system" context. Yeah, Renaissance has some neat stuff - sanity for example.

[SDLeary]

21 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Is is that you don't like specials, and crits, or the difficulties inherent is doing so in a D100 blackjack system?

No offense, just curious about the game design. Plus, I had something similar in the works but with a form of success levels. 

Part of it is the difficulties, or more the cumbersome nature it would introduce. I could use doubles for specials for example. Combine that with criticals, and with hit location based major wounds... Also, with doubles as specials, someone would bring up how they are being nerfed out of a 1% here and there. In addition, I haven't really figured out specials for all weapons. I mean we have the examples from BRP, but I'm not sure that extra damage from the outset is right anymore. Bleeding, yes, but what else? With a critical at least, it can be described as a "really good hit", in the game literally a 1 in 100 shot.

Very loose and in flux like all house systems I guess.

SDLeary

Edited February 15, 2016 by SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, SDLeary said:

 In addition, I haven't really figured out specials for all weapons. I mean we have the examples from BRP, but I'm not sure that extra damage from the outset is right anymore. Bleeding, yes, but what else? With a critical at least, it can be described as a "really good hit", in the game literally a 1 in 100 shot.

Very loose and in flux like all house systems I guess.

SDLeary

You might like some of the "criticals" (read "specials") from the USagi Yojimbo RPG. The game gives each weapon type.Then a character might have acess to a couple more based on their other abilities. If you want I could send you a list. Most would translate into BRP and some are fairly interesting (UY's version of the impale, for instance, The rebound ability for polearms is another neat one.). 

[Mugen]

I'd use a mix of various BRP-related games.

-Generic Hit Points
-Localized Major Wounds using RQ rules for 0 HP in a localization
-Skill base equal to the sum of 2 characteristics
-Roll-under blackjack for skill oppositions
-Sorcery as base for magic/psionics system.

[KPhan2121]

I think BRP is much simplier and easier to teach to newer players, as well as being able to play well enough in any setting. RQ 6 works better in historical/fantasy settings where hand to hand combat is more prevalent, the current special effects should be expanded for ranged combat as well as ranged-melee interaction effects. Because of that, I put my vote towards Basic Roleplaying System. It just works the way it currently is.

[GianniVacca]

I like RQ2 as a referee because I am too lazy to remember/manage the intricacies of RQ6 combat. However, I prefer the RQ6 character creation system. But nowadays even RQ2 is too complex for me.... I use DEX instead of SR for combat.

Edited February 25, 2016 by GianniVacca

[muminalver]

I voted brp mainly because I have used it as inspiration, but should I bé honest i would have voted drakar och demoner + mutant the black box....

[Claudius]

On 14 February, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Atgxtg said:

I also like the Special Effect. Loved them since I fist saw the critical hit system in Usagi Yojimbo (pretty much the same thing except you can get multiple specials). However I don't like opposed rolls, and I like the resistance table. I like category modifiers as they make attributes important.  I also prefer the RQ2/RQ3 magic systems. So that's why I use RQ3 for my base and import other stuff that I need.  

I thought I was the only weirdo who thinks that Sanguine Usagi Yojimbo is a wonderful system. It is perhaps the only dice pool system that I actively like and enjoy, as opposed to "endure"

[Atgxtg]

Yeah. I liked quite a few things in Sanguine's Usagi RPG. It's streamlined quite a bit from Ironclaw and more playable. I really liked how the combat system incorporated character movement, and how the gifts system actually allowed character to develop a fighting style. Not like most games, when the weapon wielded pretty much dictates the fighting style. If facing a skilled opponent, it actually made sense to try and "feel out" you opponent's abilities over a few rounds. 

[pachristian]

Now I'm going to have to look at the Usage RPG.

I'm looking at my own mashup of RQ3, RQ6, BRP, Legend... RQ6 will impact most of it. RQ3 will impact some areas.

What I admire most about Chaosium RQ2 was it's simple completeness: Everything you needed in one short book, and nothing you didn't need. Although in fairness, the game did not really take off until Cults of Prax gave us some sample cults and organizations, and a feel for the world of Glorantha. What I didn't like was the attribute point cut-offs, and the way the game was heavily weighted to favor the smart and quick. Not that that's not 'realistic' but it meant that if you allowed point-buy you ended up with a whole party of STR 17, SIZ 8, INT 17 characters, who would then count on attribute training to raise CON and DEX, and pow gain checks to raise POW, and gaming in general to raise CHA.

I like Nash&Whittaker RQ's using two characteristics to produce a base in a skill. I like RQ6's "combat styles" systems. I like the simplified skill system. I like the I really like the fact that a Healing-6 matrix is no longer the first magic item you hand out to the players - it's a lot harder to take a character's limb off, and I prefer that. I like N&W's approach to divine magic, where you piece by piece commit your soul to your god until it's all used up.

I like RQ3's use of the resistance table, and the mathematical stability it brings to the attributes. I guess I'm one of the few people who didn't object to the "POW Economy"; I liked the way it created natural limits on a character's magical ability.

The combat system remains a sticking point. I never liked Classic RQ's "one attack, one parry, you're done" approach. N&W RQ's multiple actions per combat round is more flexible, but has its own problems; such facing two enemies and using all of your actions to parry them on the first wave of attacks, only to have them each have 2 more actions - realistic, maybe, but the character can't even run away at that point!

 

Ramble, ramble, ramble

[pachristian]

BTW - I'm in Drivethrurpg getting a copy of Usage Yojimbo now, thanks to endorsements here. I want to check out this combat system.

 

Now here's a tip for you: Check out Hackmaster (Kenner & Co). You can get the basic rules free online. The combat system is incredibly well written and balanced. It's a trifle complex, but it plays great.

[SDLeary]

8 hours ago, pachristian said:

The combat system remains a sticking point. I never liked Classic RQ's "one attack, one parry, you're done" approach. N&W RQ's multiple actions per combat round is more flexible, but has its own problems; such facing two enemies and using all of your actions to parry them on the first wave of attacks, only to have them each have 2 more actions - realistic, maybe, but the character can't even run away at that point!

 

Ramble, ramble, ramble

Have you tried an opposed roll system, such as the one in Pendragon? Each character can initiate a combat action each round. This combat action encompasses all attack and defense. Winner (highest roll under skill) gets to damage opponent. If opponent is partial winner (under skill but under winners roll), they get their parrying weapon in the way to reduce the damage they take; if they fail their roll they take the full damage. 

Wash, rinse, repeat when the opponents turn comes. 

The down side to this is that Criticals (and Specials if you use them) become more difficult, especially if you use 5% Crits. I simply say Crits are on roll of skill only (1%), and sometimes I use specials based on rolls of pairs. 

SDLeary 

[Atgxtg]

RQ2 wasn't really all that complete. RQ was firmly set in Glorantha is those days, yet the game gave very little information on the setting.

Oh, and Healing-6 matrices were not the first thing GMS gave out. I think you are missing the point behind RQ. Combat was supposed to be a more serious affair than in most of the (D&D variant) RPGs of that era. PCs who got limbs hacked off or mauled didn't necessarily get them back. Fights in RQ tended to be short and bloody. Characters didn't go through as many battles as a D&D group would have, and players were encouraged to use their brains rather than just standing there trading blows.  

 

As far as Usagi goes, it has some nice options that I'd love to port over to RQ. For instance when a character is attacked, he can opt to counter-attack instead of parry. This basically allows him to oppose the opponent's attack roll with his own. The winner gets to hit first. If the loser is disabled or killed, his attack doesn't get completed, but if he is able to act, his attack hits second. So the tactic is risky. Characters are restricted to one counter-attack or parry, but there are ways to get more parries and to recover your counter-attack to use again. Most polearms have a rebound  critical where they get to keep their counter-attack as a critical (read special in RQ) hit. So someone skilled with a polearm can fend off several attackers. RRebound and counter-attack also open up the possiblity for a character to act like a hero in a Samurai film, since in theory, someone who can rebound could counter-attack multiple times iand cut down a dozen oppoents or so in a round, if he gets beating them and getting critical to rebound with. 

[trystero]

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

As far as Usagi goes, it has some nice options that I'd love to port over to RQ. For instance when a character is attacked, he can opt to counter-attack instead of parry. This basically allows him to oppose the opponent's attack roll with his own. The winner gets to hit first. If the loser is disabled or killed, his attack doesn't get completed, but if he is able to act, his attack hits second. So the tactic is risky. Characters are restricted to one counter-attack or parry, but there are ways to get more parries and to recover your counter-attack to use again. Most polearms have a rebound  critical where they get to keep their counter-attack as a critical (read special in RQ) hit. So someone skilled with a polearm can fend off several attackers. RRebound and counter-attack also open up the possiblity for a character to act like a hero in a Samurai film, since in theory, someone who can rebound could counter-attack multiple times iand cut down a dozen oppoents or so in a round, if he gets beating them and getting critical to rebound with. 

Call of Cthulhu 7th edition has a somewhat similar system which my players and I are really enjoying: when attacked in melee, you can Dodge (which includes shield blocking and weapon parrying) or Fight Back. Dodging means you avoid the attack; the defender wins ties (equal levels of success on attack and defense rolls). Fighting back means you can hurt an enemy on their turn, but it's riskier; the attacker wins ties, so you only inflict damage on them if you get a higher level of success than they do.

You can make multiple Fight Back attempts per turn, but each attack after the first gets a bonus die (an extra tens die, used if it's lower than the roll's inherent tens die) to reflect that you're spreading your defenses thin.

I've found that this makes a single high-skilled character really dangerous against lower-skilled opponents, much like the Usagi Yojimbo game you describe above.

[K Peterson]

I voted BRP as a base system because that's primarily what I've used in the past. I am really fond of the new Delta Green Rpg, though, and could easily use that as a baseline going forward.

[Atgxtg]

On 2/29/2016 at 3:41 PM, trystero said:

I've found that this makes a single high-skilled character really dangerous against lower-skilled opponents, much like the Usagi Yojimbo game you describe above.

Yeah, that was the intention for Usagi. It simulates the Samurai film genre, so you can have one expert swordsman take down a small army in a round or two. It's not automatic, or easy, but it is possible to recreate scenes  from Yojimbo or Sanjuro. It requires an extremely good swordman vs. a bunch of mooks, and a bit of luck. And that's just what we got in the films. 

[SDLeary]

On February 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Atgxtg said:

... As far as Usagi goes, it has some nice options that I'd love to port over to RQ. For instance when a character is attacked, he can opt to counter-attack instead of parry. This basically allows him to oppose the opponent's attack roll with his own. The winner gets to hit first. If the loser is disabled or killed, his attack doesn't get completed, but if he is able to act, his attack hits second. So the tactic is risky. Characters are restricted to one counter-attack or parry, but there are ways to get more parries and to recover your counter-attack to use again. Most polearms have a rebound  critical where they get to keep their counter-attack as a critical (read special in RQ) hit. So someone skilled with a polearm can fend off several attackers. RRebound and counter-attack also open up the possiblity for a character to act like a hero in a Samurai film, since in theory, someone who can rebound could counter-attack multiple times iand cut down a dozen oppoents or so in a round, if he gets beating them and getting critical to rebound with. 

Take a look at the Delta Green QuickStart that I uploaded: Delta Green: Need to Know. They have adopted something like this.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

16 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Take a look at the Delta Green QuickStart that I uploaded: Delta Green: Need to Know. They have adopted something like this.

SDLeary

Thanks. I'll check it out. The counter-attack options is such an easy thing to port over to RQ/BRP. 

I'd love to port a lot of the Usagi combat rules and Gifts over to RQ somehow. I like how in UY characters don't just stand there and trade blows, but instead move around on the battlefield. I love the way the use retreats, and how some abilties are triggered under certain circumstances, which leads to fighting styles instead of just a generic weapon skill. 

 

[Chaot]

I voted BRP but it's really Elric! with bits and pieces added every time.

[Questbird]

On 3/5/2016 at 7:59 AM, Chaot said:

I voted BRP but it's really Elric! with bits and pieces added every time.

I voted other because Elric! is really my prime system, and it wasn't listed.

[Kloster]

Runequest 3

[SDLeary]

12 hours ago, Kloster said:

Runequest 3

This, though this can be assembled from the BGB for the most part.

SDLeary