Satarite exiles in Pavis

[Rob Darvall]

A very basic question but two hours of trolling through various archives yield no results & my books are mostly in storage.

Which Sartarite clans/tribes/Identities were exiled to Pavis both after Boldhome fell & Starbrow's rebellion?

[Haimji]

Hi

Many rebellious sartarites are from Kheldon, Colymars & Culbrea. One of the most famous exiles is Prince Argrath, but Garrath Sharpesword and Argrath whitebull are famous too.

[Ian Cooper]

2 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

A very basic question but two hours of trolling through various archives yield no results & my books are mostly in storage.

Which Sartarite clans/tribes/Identities were exiled to Pavis both after Boldhome fell & Starbrow's rebellion?

IMO it's not quite like that. Individual Sartarites would have left their clans to go to Pavis. Some would have gone when Sartar fell but Pavis was free - those were likely those most unwilling to live under the Empire, or simply afraid of what it might mean. We might term these refugees. Some would just be looking for a new life, others to ferment rebellion from safety. Mostly whole clans would not have gone, unless they were mostly destroyed, and the scattered survivors fled to Pavis. In the pre-Starbrow's Rebellion period survivors of the Telmori annihilation of the Maboder may well be amongst these (we name them in The Coming Storm, not too hand as I write this).

After Pavis fell then the refugees would have declined, but the number of exiles would have increased. Now, exiles from one tribe always need to go 'somewhere else' but are unlikely to find a welcome in other clans as these are kinship based societies, so usually would take service with a king, or join a mercenary company, or get a job in a city. Many of these exiles may only have been temporarily sent away, but need to 'cool their heels' until things settle down at home. Some of these will always have gone to Pavis - to avoid those seeking revenge on them, or believing that they can 'get rich quick.'  But later the number will increase as rebels against the Empire have to flee, exiled to prevent retribution falling on their kin, often with a price on thier head. These could come from any clan. Those tribes that do collaborate may have many leave, simply because they cannot live with the Lunar sympathies of their kings, such as when the Balymr king collaborates.

The destruction of the Dundealos will have produced many refugees, a large number of whom went to the Pol Joni, but other doubltess found their way to Pavis, ad a similar event  the punishment of the Firebull clan of the Sambari may have created refugees.

In summary, a Satarite exile could probably come from any clan or tribe, but no whole clan or tribe made the journey.

[Baelor]

Below is my non-canon situation for Sartarites in Pavis and the River of Cradles region:

In my Borderlands-inspired campaign, Brightwater Saga, Sartarites have emigrated to Pavis, both before and after its conquest, and both as individuals and as significant clam populations. Most have not found anything but misery in overcrowded Pavis. Some have become itinerant poor, working for food or little better in the city. A few have become adventurers, plying the Rubble for whatever they can scavenge, and/or joining the rebel gangs of Orlanthi hiding out there. A few larger groups have established themselves in the Rubble, crowding out, or negotiating for space with more established settlements.

At least one sizable group has recently been driven to travel to the Weis Cut and seek admission at Brightwater. A large portion of this group is Colymar. In my game, they are in the process of being welcomed to Brightwater and assimilated into its population, but there are likely to be some issues as members strive to remain Colymar.

[Corvantir]

Baelor, I have checked Borderlands & Beyond, Pavis: Gateway to Adventure and the Argan Argar Atlas and I have found no hint of Brightwater near the Weis Cut.

Is Brightwater a creation of yours or did I miss something ?

Besides that, in the Argan Argar Atlas, Ronegarth is placed where the Duke's Fort is in Borderlands & Beyond whereas Ronegarth in Pavis: GtA is placed where the village of Weis is in Borderlands & Beyond.

Sometimes this setting is driving me crazy...  

[Runeblogger]

17 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

Is Brightwater a creation of yours or did I miss something ?   

Corvantir, check this other thread from some days ago:

Baelor has changed a couple of things in his Glorantha, as everyone does sooner or later.

[Baelor]

Yes, Corvantir, Brightwater is my campaign, which you can check out in the thread above. I don't want to try to highjack this thread, but my cmapaign placed a settlement sponsored by Lighterbringers at the spot where Ronegarth/ Rausfort would be, primarily because I knew my players would NEVER play ball with Raus.

You can read about it in the Brightwater settlement post i that Runeblogger so kiindly pasted to this thread, if you care to.

 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Baelor

[Mankcam]

3 hours ago, Corvantir said:

Besides that, in the Argan Argar Atlas, Ronegarth is placed where the Duke's Fort is in Borderlands & Beyond whereas Ronegarth in Pavis: GtA is placed where the village of Weis is in Borderlands & Beyond.

Sometimes this setting is driving me crazy...  

I thought Ronegarth is the actual name of the entire settlement which includes Fort Raus and the village of Weis.

Or perhaps Fort Raus itself was renamed Ronegarth, and Ronegarth is the epicentre of the settlement of Weis.

Locals probably just collegial refer to the fort itself as the Duke's Fort. 

Yes it's confusing...

Edited September 27, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

In regards to the Sartar Exiles, I agree that they are probably an assorted mix of individual outlaws as well as refugee families. The largest recent refugee population may have come from an influx of Kheldon, Colymar, and Cubrea fleeing persecution after the failed Starbrow's Rebellion, although I don't think it was a mass migration of tribes; rather that the most recent exiles are more likely to be from these tribes.  

Any Sartarite outlaw fleeing Sartar Lunar Provinicial rule may end up in Pavis where the Lunar governance is less oppressive due to its frontier nature.

 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Mankcam

[Corvantir]

Runeblogger and Baelor, thank you for your answers, things are clearer now. I will have a look at the Brightwater thread.  

Mankcam, I will do some research about Ronegarth and see if I can find something explaining why Weis would have been renamed Ronegarth.  

[g33k]

On 9/27/2016 at 3:55 PM, Mankcam said:

I thought Ronegarth is the actual name of the entire settlement which includes Fort Raus and the village of Weis. 

???
I had pegged "Rone" and "Raus" as being like the family-name vs "House of..." you sometimes see discrepantly in European nobility ...

 

[Jeff]

On 9/28/2016 at 0:55 AM, Mankcam said:

I thought Ronegarth is the actual name of the entire settlement which includes Fort Raus and the village of Weis.

Or perhaps Fort Raus itself was renamed Ronegarth, and Ronegarth is the epicentre of the settlement of Weis.

Locals probably just collegial refer to the fort itself as the Duke's Fort. 

Yes it's confusing...

Ronegarth is the name of Raus Fort. It is what Raus and the Lunar occupation forces called it.

[Mankcam]

Settled - done and dusted. Thanks for clarifying it Jeff

Edited September 29, 2016 by Mankcam

[Corvantir]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

Ronegarth is the name of Raus Fort. It is what Raus and the Lunar occupation forces called it.

Thank you for your answer Jeff, you saved me some time and things are even clearer now.  

[Rob Darvall]

Thanks for the answers, my campaign now has a definite shape.

Baelor, hijack away, that's when the interesting details emerge.

[Baelor]

What are you planning with yours, Rob Darvall? Using Borderlands?

[Rob Darvall]

P&BR running a game using the Deadheads in New Pavis as a jumping off point for my early teens gamers to get into the system. I want Oldtown to be really detailed (the street gangs know who lives where, what they eat, which pubs they frequent etc) with the adjoining areas (Farmers and Public) a bit less so as the kids really only go there to get to the markets, temples, granaries, and public admin  (courts) buildings. Rich Hill, Downtown, Suntown, and Riverside will be strange and foreign places, whilst Zebraside, Badside & the river will seem actively dangerous. The Rubble is an adventure(s) to which all decent street urchins aspire.

I think this will have the right combination of cultural introduction and dungeon bashing.

[Byll]

On ‎29‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 8:31 AM, g33k said:

???
I had pegged "Rone" and "Raus" as being like the family-name vs "House of..." you sometimes see discrepantly in European nobility ...

 

He's Duke Raus of Rone isn't he? like Henry Beaufort Duke of Somerset or Henry Somerset Duke of Beaufort, Rone is his estate/inheritance/dignity as a Duke, Raus is the family from which he comes. If he really annoys Moonson, the Dukedom could be taken off him and given to a more pliable member of his family, or to a different family entirely. 

[Zit]

On 29.9.2016 at 11:45 AM, Jeff said:

Ronegarth is the name of Raus Fort. It is what Raus and the Lunar occupation forces called it.

And Weis is a native hamlet under the Duke's jurisdiction and gave its name to the whole district, right ?

2 hours ago, Byll said:

He's Duke Raus of Rone isn't he? like Henry Beaufort Duke of Somerset or Henry Somerset Duke of Beaufort, Rone is his estate/inheritance/dignity as a Duke, Raus is the family from which he comes.

This is how I unerstand this as well.

[Haimji]

I'm not

On 30/09/2016 at 11:21 AM, Byll said:

He's Duke Raus of Rone isn't he? like Henry Beaufort Duke of Somerset or Henry Somerset Duke of Beaufort, Rone is his estate/inheritance/dignity as a Duke, Raus is the family from which he comes. If he really annoys Moonson, the Dukedom could be taken off him and given to a more pliable member of his family, or to a different family entirely. 

I'm not sure. In old roman Empire, Duke was a military rank for someone who rule part fo army in a broderland province. It was a nobility rank after, when Roman Empire fell.

So, even if Lunars are not Romans, i believe than Raus is Duke because he has military autority in a borderland, but Count Sor-Eel in Pavis have got civilian autority. Count is above of Duke for that.

[Byll]

7 hours ago, Haimji said:

I'm not sure. In old roman Empire, Duke was a military rank for someone who rule part fo army in a broderland province. It was a nobility rank after, when Roman Empire fell.

So, even if Lunars are not Romans, i believe than Raus is Duke because he has military autority in a borderland, but Count Sor-Eel in Pavis have got civilian autority. Count is above of Duke for that.

It's an interesting idea, certainly Raus is qualified to fill a role of military defender of a far-flung province. He might have been something like a late Roman Dux at one time in his career, but I don't think he is just after Moonbroth when the Grantlands are being carpet-bagged. I think if his title was a command position rather than a mark of descent it would come with military units, and as far as I remember the Marble Phalanx, Silver shields and Antelope Lancers report to the Count of Prax (which is a recent civil/military creation that still has clearly defined duties and responsibilities).

Duke of Rone has always sounded vaguer to me than Count of Prax. I think Ronegarth is named after the Duke of Rone and that Rone itself is/was somewhere else. Although some Dukedoms recognise territories where people feel a strong sense of common identity and can survive with a significant amount of power for centuries, others decline due to economic or strategic realignment, or to court intrigue. Rone may be split between several other estates/terrirories by now, or even is a rump of it still exists it may be a less significant location than would be expected for someone who was being newly made a duke as a reward for recent services to the empire.

[soltakss]

I always assumed that Rone was the House back home. Raus might always have been a Duke, it doesn't necessarily mean that he became Duke when he came to Prax. Of course, he might be named after the Rone Grantlands, but I don't think so, the House of Rone is mentioned in Borderlands, so predates the Grantland. There are other Grantlands along the Zola Fel, which would make good campaign settings.

Edited October 2, 2016 by soltakss

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

always assumed that Rone was the House back home.

This was my interpretation as well.  Rone was a place or location (or perhaps an ancestor) in Kostaddi, where Raus was from.

From Borderlands: "Raus is from the Redlands of the Lunar Empire, his ancestors were from Kostaddi, and he served with distinction in the Lunar army. Though his household still uses them, the duke’s titles and honors are now meaningless. The political authorities who stripped him of his previous status..."

The Grantlands were presumably named by Sor-eel or other Lunars when carving up the River of Cradles, hence Weis Domain for the small hamlet there.

Raus names his fort in honor of his ancient home/ancestors.

 

[Haimji]

Duno, duke as nobility titles remind me too much modern or middle age, Lunar Empire, even is not like Roman Empire, is closier to Roman Empire than England Middle-age.

So, i can imagine Lunar Emperor give a land to Raus, and rights to rise a little army to protect the land. Land is on a broder, so Raus will protect Empire border with mercenary payed by himself instead of paying taxes. So Duke can be a military title for Lunar citizen with right to rise a private Army. Empire is far than a democracy so i guess only a few citizens can rise a private army. And Duke is on a border, no real fear of a Coup. ANd Duke must report to a Count Sor-Eel, so Duke is under watching.

Duke Raus lose all his former titles, jajagappa said that too : " The political authorities who stripped him of his previous status ". So Duke is a new status for me.

Rone can be his former land and so he name his new town form that.

That's only my opinion, perhaps i m wrong !

 

[M Helsdon]

20 hours ago, Haimji said:

I'm not sure. In old roman Empire, Duke was a military rank for someone who rule part fo army in a broderland province. It was a nobility rank after, when Roman Empire fell.

So, even if Lunars are not Romans, i believe than Raus is Duke because he has military authority in a borderland, but Count Sor-Eel in Pavis have got civilian autority. Count is above of Duke for that.

Just as in the Roman Empire, Duke, originally meaning the leading military commander in a province has become a hereditary title in addition to an appointment. Raus inherited the title of Duke of Rone, though his land grant in Prax doesn't warrant such an elevated title.

In contrast, Wulfsland in Sartar is ruled by Duke Jomes Wulf, and Harvar Ironfist was appointed Duke of the Far Place; both intended as hereditary grants.

In The Holy Country the title was given to military commanders of one of the Sixths, but either didn't have time to bed into an hereditary title or Belintar didn't allow that to happen.

In the West, the  title originally referred to the chief military commander of a prefecture of the Middle Sea Empire but now has become the title of a local ruler beneath prince or king.

If anyone believes the term Duke is too Roman, it is worth remembering that the European term is roughly equivalent to the Chinese Gong and Guogong, the Japanese Kōshaku and the Mongol Noyan. Military authority, as a warlord, tends to become established as a 'civil' title of aristocracy as well.

Edited October 2, 2016 by M Helsdon