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Apache6Actual

So does anybody remember Hawkmoon? ElfQuest?

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I do. I once had a copy of the game, and I curse my horrible fate due to having misplaced it years ago.

 

For those who don't know, Hawkmoon was another Moorcock series set in a far future where magic and technology both worked.

It used pretty much the exact same mechanics as Stormbringer.    There were, of course, scenario ideas in the back for crossover games with Stormbringer.

 

Any chance Chaosium would ever reprint it, I wonder?   Probably not. From what I remember it didn't sell well.

 

I also have a copy of ElfQuest. Somehow that didn't get lost over the years.

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The rights were lost ages ago, and I don't know really know how amenable Michael Moorcock is to licensing his IPs to Chaosium (or anybody) these days. My guess is that there's not a lot of profit to be made even if they did re-acquire the rights.

"Who knows?," is the only answer most people are going to be able to come up with is my guess.

Edited by Nick J.

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There was a Hawkmoon game released by Mongoose related to their Runequest release. I think it was pretty much a standalone game.

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Yes I remember them. I still have my copy of Hawkmoon, and it's supplement. It was very similar to Strombringer on purpose, for obvious reasons.

 

As far as reprinting it goes, not likely. What I've been told was that back when RQ and AD&D were the big FRPGs, Chaosium and TSR both contacted Michael Moorcock  and asked for permission to use Elric in their games. He very nicely said yes to both of them, and not anticipating the longevity of RPGs, let them do so for free, figuring that it would be a one time thing. A few decades and five editions later, he made a deal with Mongoose, which gave them the rights to at least some of his Eternal Champion stuff, and closed the door on Chaosium's Strombringer franchise.

It's possible that they could get the rights to reprint the old stuff, or even do a new edition, but they would probably have to pay to get the rights back, and Moorcock's stuff isn't as popular or well known today as it was back in the 80s, and might not be profitable.

 

 

Edited by Atgxtg

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1 hour ago, Apache6Actual said:

Hawkmoon had a supplement?

 

Damn.

Well, technically no, but functionally yes. Chaosium produced a Eternal Champion supplement called the Shattered Isle. I guess the idea was to combine Stormbinger and Hawkmoon RPGs into the full fledged Multiverse. But, the supplement is pretty much a "Granbretan Special". Included within were:

  • some new rules, notably aerial combat rules
  • new technology, with vehicles such as  including tanks and ornithopers,
  • a short story
  • guidelines for inter dimensional travel to the Young Kingdoms and Tragic Millennium Earth
  • A series of adventures that take place on Tragic Millennium Eire (with notes for generating Eirish characters).
  • Something like 50 different Orders of the Beast for Granbretan Characters, each with notes of their duties and characteristic modifiers (i.e. Bulls add an extra +1D6 to STR and +2 to SIZ).
Edited by Atgxtg
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The Elfquest rpg started to develop a new elven culture with the Sea Elves, which apparently alarmed the Pinis that now other creators had taken over their creation of Elfquest and were publishing something that fans might consider as canon. Given the fact that the Elfquest property pretty much was their livelihood, this may explain why they weren't amused about the perspective of losing control over that. In later years, they produced a number of spin-offs and follow-ups which included a tribe of mermaid-like sea elves, quite different from the scenario booklet for the rpg.

The game system (as far as I studied it) was pretty much that of RQ3 with just the magic adapted to the world of the two moons (the setting of the Elfquest comics and anthologies).

The later storylines saw the humans of that world develop from palaeolithic hunter-gatherers to a number of societies quite unlike our own planet's, although recognizably human. The two (interconnected) SF series of comics would make a very interesting setting for a near-future SF game with a pinch of elf magic and alien psionic powers.

On the whole, the overlap between fans of the comics and roleplayers eager to play in the World of the Two Moons appears to haven't been that great. Part of that may have been the great impact of the few protagonists of the comics on the story line. You were almost pushed to either choose some of those characters at some point in their history, or make up your own, entirely non-canonical clan of elves dropped someplace different from Cutter's band or their ancestors. The four known clans (wolf riders, sun villagers, mountain elves and reindeer elves), the two troll tribes and the community of preservers did get explored a lot by official publications of the Pinis, which never were translated into scenarios.

I guess the RQ3 system with its lack of social attributes wasn't the ideal engine for the kind of stories told in the comics. Still, at the time of publication, it may have been one of the best possible fits, one of the very few character-class-less designs around.

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The EQ game was kinda an '80's thing. Rumors of a movie were all over the place, or maybe an animated TV show. Nowadays all you see of the series are maybe one or two cosplayers, and they....are getting pretty long in the tooth, tbh.

IIRC the Pini's ended up shutting down their EQ website, which was a shame, I think.

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46 minutes ago, Apache6Actual said:

The EQ game was kinda an '80's thing. Rumors of a movie were all over the place, or maybe an animated TV show. Nowadays all you see of the series are maybe one or two cosplayers, and they....are getting pretty long in the tooth, tbh.

IIRC the Pini's ended up shutting down their EQ website, which was a shame, I think.

elfquest.com is online, and you can read all the series there. Quite generous...

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I still own the Mongoose version of Hawkmoon, and the Granbretan book. I really like the interpretation of lost technology as magic in that world, and the way the game used its magic system for that.

But I only bought it to read it. Most of the time, I prefer to create my own worlds for my campaigns - using the Young Kingdoms in my current campaign's first part is more due to nostalgia. :)

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On 10/30/2018 at 3:20 PM, Joerg said:

.The game system (as far as I studied it) was pretty much that of RQ3 with just the magic adapted to the world of the two moons (the setting of the Elfquest comics and anthologies).

Yup. I think the biggest difference between RQ3 and EQ was that EQ didn't use skill bases or categories but instead determined the skill scores by characteristics. For example Dodge was (INT+DEX) x2, and one melee and missle weapon started at (STR+DEX)x2. Possibly to simply and streamline things. I wonder if things had gone differently, and  Steve Perrin written and RQ4 if skill categories would have been eliminate d, or maybe simplified down to a formula such as STR+DEX for manipulation. 

 

On 10/30/2018 at 6:07 PM, Apache6Actual said:

The EQ game was kinda an '80's thing. Rumors of a movie were all over the place, or maybe an animated TV show. Nowadays all you see of the series are maybe one or two cosplayers, and they....are getting pretty long in the tooth, tbh.

IIRC the Pini's ended up shutting down their EQ website, which was a shame, I think.

EQ in general was kinda an 80s thing. It was also a bit of a cult thing. People seemed to either love it completely or be pretty much indifferent about it and bewildered by how much their friends liked it. That might be why it didn't do so well as an RPG. You needed to find a whole group of gamers who loved EQ to run a campaign. 

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On 11/4/2018 at 9:59 AM, Chaot said:

There was also the Hawkmoon monograph from Chaosium.

What was the differences between the monograph and the Hawkmoon RPG from the 80s?

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The background was completely rewritten, vastly expanding the descriptions of Tragic Millennium Europe. The original game was severely lacking in such detail. I also wrote the game to be compatible with BRP/Elric! Although it's largely stat-free. 

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1 hour ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

The background was completely rewritten, vastly expanding the descriptions of Tragic Millennium Europe. The original game was severely lacking in such detail. I also wrote the game to be compatible with BRP/Elric! Although it's largely stat-free. 

Ah, thanks. I did some websurfing and found an interview with you from around 2010, where you explained how it was supposed to be an updated/Elric! version of Hawkmoon, but ended up getting bounced around from one company to another following the CCG crash.  Pity that there doesn't appear to be much chance of any more Eternal Champion RPGs

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W e can always hunt down Moorcock and take him to a "gentlemen's club".  We pay for the booze and the lap dances, he'll agree to anything.....:) Last I heard he lives here in Texas. It'll be EASY.

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29 minutes ago, Apache6Actual said:

W e can always hunt down Moorcock and take him to a "gentlemen's club".  We pay for the booze and the lap dances, he'll agree to anything.....:) Last I heard he lives here in Texas. It'll be EASY.

LOL! From what I've read it's not so much that Moorcock won't license out the EC stuff, it's just that the license might not be profitable.He's not as well know or popular now as he was back in the 70s and 80s. It seems that most RPG licenses end up not making much money for the company once every is said and done. 

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I remember all of those games, and still have them on my shelf:

Stormbringer RPG

2006-X     STB          Stormbringer 1st edition
2101-Xp1 STB          Stormbringer 2nd edition (has cardboard figures and fold-out character sheets)
2101-Xp2 STB          Stormbringer 2nd edition (has no figures, but has book of character sheets/charts)
2102         STB          Stormbringer Companion
2103         STB          Demon Magic
2104         STB          Stealer of Souls
2105         STB          Black Sword
2106-X     HWK         Hawkmoon
2107         HWK         The Shattered Isle
2108         STB          White Wolf
2109-H     STB          Stormbringer 3rd edition (GW version)
2109-HA  STB          Stormbringer 3rd edition (GW version autographed by MM)
2110         STB          Stormbringer 4th edition
2111         STB          Rogue Mistress
2112         STB          Sorcerers of Pan Tang
2113         STB          Perils of the Young Kingdom
2114         STB          Sea Kings of the Purple Towns
2115         STB          Stormbringer 5th edition

Elfquest RPG

2601-X     EQ            Elfquest 1st edition
2602         EQ            Elfquest Companion
2603         EQ            The Sea Elves
2604         EQ            Elf War
2605         EQ            Elfquest 2nd edition

Monographs

308            STB          Gods of Chaos (tape bound)
327            STB          Hawkmoon (tape bound)
331            STB          Old Hrolmar (tape bound)
335            STB          Gods of Law

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Now that's pretty extensive. I have most of it, but I think you have it all. Might be easier for you to list the Chaosium products you don't have.

 

BTW< Anyone know what the -X, -X, and -HA suffixes mean? 

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X = box set

H = hardcover

HA = hardcover autographed (but I think Rick made that one up for his records; don't think it's an official Chaosium code)

Also, there are more printing variations of 1E and 2E than in Rick's list. See my recent post at the Acaeum clearing it up (we think): https://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=296537&amp;c=1#p296537

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6 minutes ago, TheHistorian said:

Also, there are more printing variations of 1E and 2E than in Rick's list. See my recent post at the Acaeum clearing it up (we think): https://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=296537&amp;c=1#p296537

Thanks. The stuff you did on the various incarnations of Strombringer had me laughing. Years ago, when Chaosium updated the rules  (the starting skills were a lot lower than in my original edition) I ran into a situation similar to the one I've described above in Pendragon. Same player, too. Only in this case his character was notably underskilled compared to the rest of the group because he was using the newer rules. I ordered the new version from my FLGS only to get the older version. Shop owner told me that his distributor claimed there was no such newer edition, but owner also told me his distributor was stopping by latter in the week, so if I wanted to explain it to the distributor I could. I brought 4 or 5 different versions of the game, with notes to help illustrate the differences The store owner (who I gamed with) backed me up.  When the facts were pointed out to the guy, the  distributor got angry and said "You got what you got."In the end the store owner dropped that distributor, not just because of that incident, but because it was indicative of how the guy handing his RPG stuff. He either didn't know the products or did but used ignorance as a means to push backstock. He went out of business about a year later. 

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Stormbringer was a great game, I still have many of those titles on my shelves. The BRP system worked well with it.

I love the ElfQuest comics, but in hindsight I'm not sure BRP was the best fit. Something simplier like the D6 system used in Ghostbusters or perhaps WEG Star Wars would have been a bit better. Something like Fate would work quite well these days. 

However I think BRP could do it well with a smaller skills set (even smaller than the original set of skills in EQ), or have no skills at all. Just use the core Characteristics for simplicity (perhaps using the CoC 7E difficulty levels, with the GM determining difficulty (ie DEX 15 =  15% / 38% / 75%). That would keep things pretty simple. And one or two knacks/feats provide Bonus/Penalty Dice. I would also add a few Passions to the mix, as EQ is very emotive, it would suit it.

However EQ was a great property to have, but I just think that even the slimmed version of BRP at that time wasn't slim enough for the EQ flavour, and the setting needed more support as it was difficult to come up with scenario ideas which wouldn't conflict with the actual story arc. If it had come out today it would have been much bigger, I think more women are into fanzine stuff now and EQ often appeals to women, given Wendy Pini's character pervades throughout it.

I might go back and try and collect EQ anyway, it still has possibilities

 

 

Edited by Mankcam

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I will of course always defer to people who were there at the time, but I have a feeling that some of the various "printings" were more a "use whatever stuff is on hand" than specific planned releases. I believe that as they ran out of rulebooks they got more printed, and incorporated the errata. When they ran out of boxes they printed more boxes, and updated them along the way. It's also possible that people made mistakes and used older stock when they were supposed to not use it. Regardless, I mainly see 4 printings at work here, centered around when they deliberately changed an item. I'm absolutely not trying to argue. 

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