best cults for Alchemists

[Manu]

One of my player wants to play an Alchemist. Nice; But no idea of the cult he can join.

[Brootse]

Black Fang is a cult that resembles a bit the historical Assassins. They're found in the Great Rubble in Prax. Where's your campaign taking place? And what kind of a character is it?

[jajagappa]

Lhankor Mhy.

[jeffjerwin]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Lhankor Mhy.

Who is the son or brother of Mostal, the god most closely associated with alchemy... but who is dead.

[jajagappa]

Lhankor Mhy has all the knowledge/lore skills, plus in places like Nochet access to lots of ingredients.  And typical for Lhankor Mhy, his cult keeps close guard on the knowledge.

For certain types of potions (e.g. Healing potions, Love potions, Herbal poisons/antidotes, etc.) you could have Ernalda (or possibly Asrelia).  Chalana Arroy will have some skills in this too.

[The God Learner]

4 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Mostal, the god most closely associated with alchemy... but who is dead.

Cannon Cultist, mayhap?

 

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Who is the son or brother of Mostal, the god most closely associated with alchemy... but who is dead.

Actually it's Quicksilver most strongly associated with alchemy.  RQ3's Gods of Glorantha did hint at human worshippers of Quicksilver but no writeup eventuated.  

[David Scott]

34 minutes ago, Manu said:

One of my player wants to play an Alchemist. Nice; But no idea of the cult he can join.

RQG cults that teach alchemy: Chalana Arroy (page 290) & Lhankor Mhy (page 298) , 

GoG (tease) says Gorgorma and Mostal as well.

32 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Black Fang is a cult that resembles a bit the historical Assassins

Black Fang as a spirit cult in RQG does not specifically teach alchemy, although that doesn't preclude one of its 300 members teaching it. In RQ2 the cult had a requirement for prospective Rune Lords to be able to brew poison, although the cult didn't teach it. It's clear to me from Cults of Terror  that Black Fang's associate cult status of Krasht is the source of the skill.

RQ3 GoG says "Initiates are taught to brew poison", however I feel that is an attempt to correct the RQ2 Rune Lord requirements. I like that a tiny cult, doesn't have resources.

[g33k]

I'd allow Pavis and any other Dwarf-Friend cults to -- at least potentially -- have access to Alchemy; at least on an individual basis if not as a "Cult-wide" feature.

But yeah - Lhankor Mhy.  Not even a stretch.  It's a Lore so it's straight-up LM core skill.  Classic "Alchemist Adventures" seeking lost knowledge in ruins, hidden knowledge from Trolls & Elves & other Elder Races, etc etc etc.

 

[Julian Lord]

eh, this has long been seen as a blind spot in Glorantha by French RQ/HW/HQ players ...

Having said that, Alchemy as such belongs to the Mostali.

OTOH Alchemy historically in RW has mainly been associated with balance and healing, rather than with any trite nor auriferous chemistry ...

The Arroin non-Rune-cult-and-no-magic-either anyway has some knowledge of it.

[Joerg]

RW alchemy comes in two appearances - mystical writings involving astrological symbols and hermetic principles, and laboratory methods that actually work in having material transmutation through what we now understand as chemical reactions.

Alchemy as a quasi-religious practice is indistinguishable from astrology as a form of magic.

Alchemy as a natural philosophy trying to answer the Faustian questions, what does hold the world together in its innermost parts, does provide some concepts.

Projecting philosophical questions on material transformations is only a form of sympathetic magic. Some of this was categorized as alchemy, other instances ran by other names, e.g. traditional Chinese medicine, homeopathy, or in modern times nutrition advice.

Personally, I would group metallurgy as one of the greatest transmutations ever effected by mankind under alchemy. Glassmaking and ceramics are similar, if a little less spectacular. So are various dyeing techniques or mummification practices. Perfuming, distillation of spirits and vitriols, fermentation, crysallisation, precipitation are all great showmanship techniques used in chemistry, too.

 

In Gloranthan context, to me alchemy is a knowledge-based magic concerned with the matter that makes up Glorantha. Runic associations of matter can collect or release energies for spell magic.

[Thyrwyn]

According to page 175 of the book, the Alchemy skill is a cult secret of Chalana Arroy, Lhankor Mhy, and certain Lunar cults. YGMV

[Manu]

15 hours ago, Thyrwyn said:

According to page 175 of the book, the Alchemy skill is a cult secret of Chalana Arroy, Lhankor Mhy, and certain Lunar cults. YGMV

OK, but in the same book, in the 'healer' occupation, you have alchemy +10 and possible cult : Eiritha. !!

And I would easily see a alchemist selling herbal preparation and more for more than just curing. Potion of Fertility for Ernalda temple, powder to sharpen swords for Warriors, Potion to mimic animal odor for hunters, ...

[Joerg]

RQG alchemy really is basic ancient lab-work. The stuff you need to know to make the glue for your composite bow, high quality pitch to set your flintstone arrowtips to the shaft, to make the dyes and stains that you need to mark your leathers with your tribal patterns, to prepare the tanning agents, to prepare ointments from animal fat, ground herbs and other stuff, or to extract the scents from despicable innards or other organs that can be made into powerful wooing aids or pest repellants.

This kind of alchemy was already practiced by paleolithic hunter-gatherers. Sedentary and literate cultures just expanded the list of materials and applications somewhat.

Making woad is a form of alchemy, too, subsumed in a ritual spell. There will be other such hidden alchemy skills.

[Manu]

The Invisible God could also be a cult for the Alchemist

[Brootse]

16 hours ago, Manu said:

The Invisible God could also be a cult for the Alchemist

Good point.

[Jeff]

Of the published cults, Lhankor Mhy - Lord of Knowledge - is most closely associated with alchemy. Although real-world alchemy was often associated with gnosis and personal transformation, Gloranthan alchemy is more like Chinese or Indian alchemy, and largely used to create medicines and potions of various effects.

[Julian Lord]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Of the published cults, Lhankor Mhy - Lord of Knowledge - is most closely associated with alchemy. Although real-world alchemy was often associated with gnosis and personal transformation, Gloranthan alchemy is more like Chinese or Indian alchemy, and largely used to create medicines and potions of various effects.

Most traditional Western alchemy was too, until about the 16th and 17th Centuries when at the same time Alchemy shifted towards mysticism, whilst Chemistry started its disengagement from it.

Certainly most European Mediaeval alchemists were primarily concerned with what today we'd call chemistry, herbalism, and pharmaceutics.

[David Scott]

18 hours ago, Manu said:

OK, but in the same book, in the 'healer' occupation, you have alchemy +10 and possible cult : Eiritha. !!

The RQG book isn't wrong with alchemy +10 and possible cult : Eiritha.

According to the cult table, Eiritha Cultists are friendly with Chalana Arroy cultists, they can learn it from them. Alternatively trained by another Eiritha cultist with a higher skill level or researched up to 75%. Cult Skills: These are the special skills favored and taught by the cult at a reduced price. This doesn't preclude cultists having other skills, it's just not the most important thing to know in a nomadic beast rider cult. Overall I don't believe that all alchemy is cult linked, it's source is clearly Mostal, but lots of people will have the skills do some Alchemy. Looking the Bestiary, black elves, dwarves (quicksilver, lead), troll nurses, all know alchemy, so plenty of adventuring opportunity. As the description says it's used with specific materials, so I think things like this are common:

Soothing Cow Balm for calming distressed calves made from the fruit of the chaparral nightshade that rarely blooms in the Purple Flowers Grassland of the Wastes. 2D6+6 POT if the Alchemy roll is made. POT vs CON of the calf to soothe it for POT hours. 

[Joerg]

I had the impression that alchemy is a way to draw magic from materials - a way of creating magic without pouring one's self into the process, controlling magic from the outside. It is neither the alchemist nor the spirit who provides the healing, but it is the processed material going into the potion. This will draw on the inherent magic of mineral material (such as crystals), possibly tied to its history of precipitation in myth, or the life-force of plant or animal matter used in the production.

The earliest mention of alchemy in published Glorantha was the Alchemical Transformer, one of the gifts available by making an alliance attempt at the Dwarf Mine of Isidilian. This device was simply a booster of the controlling magician's abilities, doubling e.g. the range over which a magical attack (or defense) could be projected. Its description involved slaves worshipping the apparatus, providing it with some of that power, but from the name there are bound to be some materials involved, too.

Mostali alchemy is clearly delineated in the Guide in the description of the Quicksilver Caste:

Quote

They know the art of transmutation and the science of alchemy. They brew terrible compounds in their fuming labs, and know the secrets of gunpowder, medicine, and all forms of vitriol and potions. They also make the dwarf version of food. Although they use magic, they specialize in manipulating physical elements.

They know the art of transmutation. Transmutation includes the production of metal from ores, which appears to be outside the expertise of both the metal-working castes (copper and brass). Who would you go to to have Truestone transformed into Adamantium?

 

25 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

Most traditional Western alchemy was too, until about the 16th and 17th Centuries when at the same time Alchemy shifted towards mysticism, whilst Chemistry started its disengagement from it.

Some sort of analytical chemistry was ancient knowledge of smelters of ores - probing. The 16th century author Georg Agricola dedicated one of his IIRC 13 books on the art of mining on the techniques of probing the ore, and assaying metal contents. The knowledge he describes has been around for centuries, and probably dates back to Roman times, or even back to Cyprus and the Levante with the first copper industries.

When I started learning chemistry, I complained about the extensive knowledge about the behavior of compounds one had to master, but I was able to approach the subject within a systematic frame that allows predictions of similar behavior based on other knowledge. This is a huge advantage no ancient alchemist possessed. There might be some general idea how to arrive at vitriols, but each flavor would be different.

Gloranthan alchemists are in a somewhat better position as they have the runic correspondences which help determine material and magical properties of substances. But then, I think they (and alloyists) can discern the difference between brass and bronze where a chemical analysis wouldn't. A material scientist probably would be able to point out differences in crystallization inside the metal, demonstrable e.g. at breaks forcibly induced on items of either (Gloranthan) brass or bronze. There are likely to be differences in coloration, too, that are independent of the copper-tin ratio but dependent on the treatment history of the material. But then, a Runic analysis could determine the Powers and Conditions involved in those processes, beyond the mere Elemental make-up.

 

 

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Overall I don't believe that all alchemy is cult linked, it's source is clearly Mostal, but lots of people will have the skills do some Alchemy.

Alchemy and transmutation are clearly aspects of Making, which does point to Mostal. There is knowledge involved, which makes all know-it-all approaches like Malkioni Logic or Lhankor Mhy knowledge repositories a starting point. There is hands-on work experience involved, whether for Orlanthi Woad, healers' herbalism (and use of animal glands and similar exotic body parts, as opposed to muscle meat).

 

There are few crafts that have a truly dedicated deity. Gustbran the Redsmith is possibly the closest, but every other profession has at best some obscure subcult of a more common deity. Jacks of all crafts (and masters of none) are available, e.g. aspects of Lodril.

[Julian Lord]

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I had the impression that alchemy is a way to draw magic from materials - a way of creating magic without pouring one's self into the process, controlling magic from the outside. It is neither the alchemist nor the spirit who provides the healing, but it is the processed material going into the potion. This will draw on the inherent magic of mineral material (such as crystals), possibly tied to its history of precipitation in myth, or the life-force of plant or animal matter used in the production.

I agree -- I've always seen it as an Inner World magic, a type of magic has been alluded to in some older supplements, where the magician treats the Inner World much as most magicians treat the otherworlds.

Healing through Alchemy, which in Glorantha IMO would almost certainly incorporate herbalism, would thus be the magical knowledge of how to bring the bodies of the sick and the injured to heal themselves from their own individually magical nature and powers.

[jeffjerwin]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Of the published cults, Lhankor Mhy - Lord of Knowledge - is most closely associated with alchemy. Although real-world alchemy was often associated with gnosis and personal transformation, Gloranthan alchemy is more like Chinese or Indian alchemy, and largely used to create medicines and potions of various effects.

Tantric Hinduism involves a great deal of mystical alchemy, as does Taoist magic. Of course, like western alchemy there's a lot of sexual symbolism as well (in the case of esoteric tantrism and taoism, indeed there's real sexual practices that are expressed in alchemical terms). So if you're comparing Gloranthan alchemy to East and South Asian alchemy there's a case to be made that it has heady mystic overtones as well.

Note the mixing of the elements, the Burtae, is often expressed as a sexual or consort relationship and 'birth of a child' in Gloranthan theism...

Edited November 8, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[The God Learner]

Mostali are the key alchemists as I see it. They work far below and can mine, extract, transform, transmute and make, among many other things, quicksilver and gun powder (again, cannon cultism might be a way in). It could be that this body of knowledge is part of the operating manual of the World Machine. I expect that other elements apart from Earth have less alchemical options, though one can of course see some twists with Water and Air and who knows what can be found in the more rarefied parts of Glorantha.

Recall also that of course Mostal had some connections with us humble, yet humbled, God Learners.

(With a warning that this may be discredited, apocryphal knowledge. Use it as you will.)

[soltakss]

Chalana Arroy used to have the Preserve Herbs spell, very useful to herbalists and maybe alchemists, and the Recognise Healing Plants, or something similar, to enable them to gather healing plants as ingredients. They should certainly be able to make healing potions, poison antidotes, curatives against disease and so on.

Quicksilver Mostal is obviously the best cult for Alchemists, as it had a lot of nifty spells. It is only available to Mostali, though.

Lhankor Mhy is the best choice, I would think. 

Does anyone have any idea where the Alchemy rules will appear and how compatible they are with RQ2 Alchemy?

[g33k]

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

Does anyone have any idea where the Alchemy rules will appear and how compatible they are with RQ2 Alchemy?

Yes, of course!

But if that were information Chaosium was willing to share at this point, I expect we'd have heard it from Jeff, when he popped in with his perspective ...  🙂