Killing the Golden Goose

[Sumath]

9 hours ago, midwinter said:

It's clean and nice. Whitewashed and no warts. There is no need to bring all that ugliness up.

Oh, come on. Read back what you've written. If this is what you're expecting for HPL then you're basically asking for a safe space for yourself, in which nobody denigrates your literary hero.

And you're objecting to Chaosium telling the truth about HPL's thoughts about other people. You're essentially asking for a cover-up. 

There is no need to bring all that ugliness up? So you think it's best that people remain blissfully unaware that HPL was a racist, and considered other people to be subhuman? Why should anyone who held those views have their image pampered? Why is that more important than knowing the truth about what he believed and what he wrote?

[midwinter]

4 hours ago, Sumath said:

Oh, come on. Read back what you've written. If this is what you're expecting for HPL then you're basically asking for a safe space for yourself, in which nobody denigrates your literary hero.

And you're objecting to Chaosium telling the truth about HPL's thoughts about other people. You're essentially asking for a cover-up. 

There is no need to bring all that ugliness up? So you think it's best that people remain blissfully unaware that HPL was a racist, and considered other people to be subhuman? Why should anyone who held those views have their image pampered? Why is that more important than knowing the truth about what he believed and what he wrote?

I already have my safe space, void of pharisee leeches bleeding a troubled but long since dead man dry. Save your fifty lashes for the living. Do you feel subhuman? If not, don't let old views bother you today. Unless you want to be pampered yourself, perhaps? Do you want to feel like a victim of a dead author and his views?

Otherwise you can lay down your shiny Seattle Armour, your Lance of Righteousness and the Shield of Woke and focus on playing a horror game. 

[Sumath]

42 minutes ago, midwinter said:

I already have my safe space, void of pharisee leeches bleeding a troubled but long since dead man dry

Good, don't let me trouble you then. But equally, don't imagine that your Never Never Land in which HPL was some beleaguered innocent is ever going to be accepted as the real world. 

46 minutes ago, midwinter said:

Otherwise you can lay down your shiny Seattle Armour, your Lance of Righteousness and the Shield of Woke and focus on playing a horror game. 

Or... you could give up:

- pretending you're a victim;

- the idea that literary history and matters of record should be whitewashed in order for you to feel better about your favourite author;

- trying to stifle other people's freedom of speech;

- generally behaving like such a ludicrous fanboy.

[midwinter]

5 minutes ago, Sumath said:

Good, don't let me trouble you then. But equally, don't imagine that your Never Never Land in which HPL was some beleaguered innocent is ever going to be accepted as the real world. 

Or... you could give up:

- pretending you're a victim;

- the idea that literary history and matters of record should be whitewashed in order for you to feel better about your favourite author;

- trying to stifle other people's freedom of speech;

- generally behaving like such a ludicrous fanboy.

Pretending to be a victim of what? You have to be more precise here. And when have I stifled free speech? I'm not the one ignoring people or closing comment sections of promotional videos. Do you think you crying out RACISM! all the time will change the way I view Lovecraft's horror stories? It won't. I like them alot. So yes, I'm a fanboy. Hey, I also like Sean Connery. He is a wife beater. And I love Schwarzenegger. He's a cheater (as was his wife). We all have our weird ideas, warts and faults. Some wear Che Guevara T-shirts without giving zero f*cks about him being a murderous communist bastard. Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. But we, the more anonymous ones, our warts and faults are more of the hidden variety. But we might be just as bad or even worse than Lovecraft was. Just maybe in different ways. BAD comes in all shapes and forms. A racist or a father who abandons his own children, who is worse? A friend who talks shit behind your back but smiles to your face? A woman who leaves her bf/husband when he ends up in a wheelchair after an accident? Who's heart tips the scales compared to Maat's Feather of Truth (or Sumath's Feather of Truth?)

[soltakss]

On 8/12/2019 at 6:00 PM, seneschal said:

Think about who the women of the Twenties and Thirties were

They were Flappers, escaping the horrors of the First World War, partying because the War to End All Wars had finished.

They were the children of Suffragettes, or had been Suffragettes themselves, so they knew they had fought to get the vote.

They were breaking down barriers, becoming the first woman to do many things.

They were the children or grandchildren of Pioneers, with horror stories of their own.

They were the women of the Great Depression, with horror stories of their own.

They were the children or grandchildren of slaves.

They were all of the above, or none of the above, or some of the above.

[soltakss]

And this used to be such a nice Site.

I wonder what happened.

[midwinter]

40 minutes ago, soltakss said:

And this used to be such a nice Site.

I wonder what happened.

Isn't it a nice site anymore, you mean? Is it because of me, The Odious One/The Lovecraft Fanboy Extraordinaire, or someone else? Was this your safe space? Has the site changed because some might have vastly different opinions than you do? Could you elaborate why it isn't a nice site anymore?

[soltakss]

6 minutes ago, midwinter said:

Isn't it a nice site anymore, you mean? Is it because of me, The Odious One/The Lovecraft Fanboy Extraordinaire, or someone else? Was this your safe space? Has the site changed because some might have vastly different opinions than you do? Could you elaborate why it isn't a nice site anymore?

Because of all the bitching, bad language and nastiness in several threads recently.

Never had that back in my day. Damn kids. Get off my lawn ...

Edited August 16, 2019 by soltakss

[Trifletraxor]

57 minutes ago, soltakss said:

And this used to be such a nice Site.

I wonder what happened.

Just don't read this thread and report if it blows up anywhere else. We'll quarantine it here.

[midwinter]

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

Because of all the bitching, bad language and nastiness in several threads recently.

Never had that back in my day. Damn kids. Get off my lawn ...

My language might be too muscular for you. Reading me is like watching a young Arnold do concentration curls. It's like a mass of granite and iron.

[...REMOVED BY ADMIN...]

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Trifletraxor
Too baiting.

[soltakss]

8 minutes ago, Trifletraxor said:

Just don't read this thread and report if it blows up anywhere else. We'll quarantine it here.

If I don't read the thread, how would I know about all the bitching, bad language and nastiness?

6 minutes ago, midwinter said:

My language might be too muscular for you. Reading me is like watching a young Arnold do concentration curls. It's like a mass of granite and iron.

Notice the lack of snowflakes in this video:

Nah, watching Arnie is fun ...

[midwinter]

6 minutes ago, soltakss said:

If I don't read the thread, how would I know about all the bitching, bad language and nastiness?

Nah, watching Arnie is fun ...

Well, I'm not here to amuse people. If I was, I would charge you an entrance fee, like at a circus or a old fashioned freak show.

By the way, why is my reputation "neutral"? It is because of the lack of hearts on this site?

Edited August 16, 2019 by midwinter

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

They were Flappers, escaping the horrors of the First World War, partying because the War to End All Wars had finished.

They were the children of Suffragettes, or had been Suffragettes themselves, so they knew they had fought to get the vote.They were the children or grandchildren of Pioneers, with horror stories of their own.

They were the women of the Great Depression, with horror stories of their own.

They were the children or grandchildren of slaves.

They were all of the above, or none of the above, or some of the above.

And a majority of those points apply to the wonderful women of the sixties as well...

They were Hippies, escaping the horrors of the Mutually Assured Destruction, partying because the War to End All Wars was coming.

They were the children of Feminists, or had been Feminists themselves, so they knew they had to fight to get the ERA and many other rights yet to be won.

They were breaking down barriers, becoming the first woman to do many things

They were the women of the Me too movement before there was one, with horror stories of their own.

They were the children, grandchildren or great grandchildren of slaves or oppressed minorities.

They were all of the above, or none of the above, or some of the above.

Well done, as always, soltakss!

Cheers!

Edited August 16, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[The Hooded Claw]

1 hour ago, Trifletraxor said:

Just don't read this thread and report if it blows up anywhere else. We'll quarantine it here.

It's your forum. But it disturbs me that certain attitudes and derogatory terms are being allowed without any moderator censure. All this 'woke', 'snowflake', 'SJW' crap.

At some point a laissez faire attitude becomes enablement.

Certain types just want attention.

I also can't see this as doing the forum, or indeed the company, any good whatsoever.

I think you're being naive.  This thread isn't 'quarantined'. Anyone who sticks their head around the corner of 'new posts' is going to be led to this car crash.

If that's fine with you then I think Chaosium need to make it crystal clear to new comers that this isn't their forum and the actions of the moderators are not necessarily endorsed by them.

Like I said, I have  received several communications from newcomers saying that this isn't a place they feel safe coming to.

But again, it's your forum.

[soltakss]

45 minutes ago, Addison said:

Like I said, I have  received several communications from newcomers saying that this isn't a place they feel safe coming to.

Which has never been the case until recently.

It is bad when people won't come to a Forum that Chaosium use as their official Forums because some people think it is toxic.

[Cultist of Sooty]

49 minutes ago, Addison said:

It's your forum. But it disturbs me that certain attitudes and derogatory terms are being allowed without any moderator censure. All this 'woke', 'snowflake', 'SJW' crap.

At some point a laissez faire attitude becomes enablement.

Certain types just want attention.

I also can't see this as doing the forum, or indeed the company, any good whatsoever.

I think you're being naive.  This thread isn't 'quarantined'. Anyone who sticks their head around the corner of 'new posts' is going to be led to this car crash.

If that's fine with you then I think Chaosium need to make it crystal clear to new comers that this isn't their forum and the actions of the moderators are not necessarily endorsed by them.

Like I said, I have  received several communications from newcomers saying that this isn't a place they feel safe coming to.

But again, it's your forum.

Yes, this is a site where I feel unwelcome and unwanted. I might read here for Chaosium news but I won't be posting here as it stands.

I've been a fan of RuneQuest  and Call of Cthulhu since 1983. But I don't feel totally comfortable posting here because someone might object if I (horrors!) mention that I'm gay, or if I call out sexism or racism. And it feels like the moderation/ownership would be on their side instead of mine.

And, frankly, I'm nervous about sticking my head up and posting this because I feel sure I will be attacked for it. But it's how this forum comes across.

[rsanford]

41 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Which has never been the case until recently.

It is bad when people won't come to a Forum that Chaosium use as their official Forums because some people think it is toxic.

Nobody has had a problem since I joined in 2015. The trouble started recently.

[soltakss]

40 minutes ago, Cultist of Sooty said:

But I don't feel totally comfortable posting here because someone might object if I (horrors!) mention that I'm gay, or if I call out sexism or racism. And it feels like the moderation/ownership would be on their side instead of mine.

Most of the people on the site will be supportive of this.

40 minutes ago, Cultist of Sooty said:

And, frankly, I'm nervous about sticking my head up and posting this because I feel sure I will be attacked for it. But it's how this forum comes across.

And, for me, that is a really big problem.

Some people will argue that people are snowflakes, shouldn't read certain threads or whatever, but if people want to post things and feel they cannot because they will be attacked, then there is a problem there.

18 minutes ago, rsanford said:

Nobody has had a problem since I joined in 2015. The trouble started recently.

That is the impression I get, too.

Sure, we had arguments about the tiniest bit of Gloranthan trivia, or how rules were interpreted, but they were gaming arguments, by and large.

This new trend of verbally attacking people, dragging baggage from other forums and so on is unpleasant and toxic, in my opinion.

If it scares people off from posting on the site, then, for me, that is a big problem.

[g33k]

9 minutes ago, Cultist of Sooty said:

Yes, this is a site where I feel unwelcome and unwanted.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  I hope you'll post sometimes anyhow... but I entirely understand your sentiment.

Thank you for posting this much, in any case!

 

10 minutes ago, Cultist of Sooty said:

... But I don't feel totally comfortable posting here because someone might object if I (horrors!) mention that I'm gay, or if I call out sexism or racism...

I hope it's equally clear that there are other "someones" here who will speak up in support of you!

 

Finally, I've bolded something that looks awfully significant, but I've left it in the whole post for context:

12 minutes ago, Cultist of Sooty said:

Yes, this is a site where I feel unwelcome and unwanted. I might read here for Chaosium news but I won't be posting here as it stands.

I've been a fan of RuneQuest  and Call of Cthulhu since 1983. But I don't feel totally comfortable posting here because someone might object if I (horrors!) mention that I'm gay, or if I call out sexism or racism. And it feels like the moderation/ownership would be on their side instead of mine.

And, frankly, I'm nervous about sticking my head up and posting this because I feel sure I will be attacked for it. But it's how this forum comes across.

I won't speak for @Cultist of Sooty as to WHY they feel this way; what have they read, and from who, etc.

And that they "feel this way" doesn't mean that it's true -- that admin's here would side with sexists & racists.  But I note that for every person speaking up, there's usually a bunch who don't (and upthread, I see there are private communications voicing the same sentiment).  So the impression is not unique to one person.

I hope this is something -- that multiple fans "feel like" (rightly or wrongly) the Mod's here will side with racists and sexists, rather than siding with people they slight -- that gets @Trifletraxor and @Jeff and @Ellie and a HUGE bunch of @Others @Chaosium (and yes, I know Triff isn't Chaosium) start talking about WTF is going on, and why fans feel this way.

 

[klecser]

1 hour ago, Cultist of Sooty said:

Yes, this is a site where I feel unwelcome and unwanted. I might read here for Chaosium news but I won't be posting here as it stands.

I've been a fan of RuneQuest  and Call of Cthulhu since 1983. But I don't feel totally comfortable posting here because someone might object if I (horrors!) mention that I'm gay, or if I call out sexism or racism. And it feels like the moderation/ownership would be on their side instead of mine.

And, frankly, I'm nervous about sticking my head up and posting this because I feel sure I will be attacked for it. But it's how this forum comes across.

It took a lot of courage for you to post this. I hear you. You aren't the only one that I've heard from who has expressed concern to me. 

I repeat the concern that @Addison raised: it appears as if there is uneven moderation. I find it a hard sell that anyone reads consistent, insulting, hurtful language from a particular individual, and no action is taken whatsoever by mods. Maybe I should unhide that person so that I can report. Because just in the quotes, I'm seeing some pretty shocking language that is not being mirrored in the comments of others involved. Whether intended or not, it can be perceived as enablement. Is that perception wrong? Then change the perception through action.

I can only speak for myself. My goal here has been to encourage gaming for ALL. That has generally been Chaosium's message as well. That concept seems to be so frightening to some people that they are willing to post in ways that chase people away. Which is a PR problem for the game. So why is it tolerated on the forum?

Chaosium games should welcome all people. Period.

Edited August 16, 2019 by klecser

[Bill the barbarian]

on the 50th anniversary of the Festival of Three Days of Peace and Music, might I recommend that some of us take the advice of Canned Heat and Go up to the Country, Go someplace we have never been before.... Check these crazed Donandar Devotees, hard at worship!

https://youtu.be/eYKY2lpxMg8

Hey.isn't that Greg Stafford at 1 minute and 18 seconds?

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

21 hours ago, rsanford said:

I would add that if you are a conservative living in Dallas and you have mostly conservative friends you are most likely to hear words like privilege on the nightly news (CNN, MSNBC, etc) or during the recent democrat presidental candidate debates. In those cases privilege is nearly always directed at conservatives as a slur. It happens so often that for many of us the definition of the word that pops into our heads is ALWAYS an insult. Obviously I know your taking the time to explain your thoughts and are acting in good faith and I can see the difference, but I am not confident that your use of the word is the normal use of the word. I think the insult form is the normal use of the word. I am glad to discuss this point as it might be just me. So feel free to educate me ... CNN routinely tells me the "way things are" and I roll my eyes.

I am entirely willing to believe you:  that the uses of "Privilege" that you see and hear have at least some "insult" as used, and often are heavily insulting.  It's worth noting that a given partisan community -- liberal or conservative -- isn't likely to carry everything from the "other side:"  they will, in general, only do a "share" of the most objectionable bits (I observe this as "human" behavior, and neither liberal nor conservative); so you may not be seeing a "representative sample."

I will at least suggest -- without real data, only the hope that I'm correct -- that you're seeing a biased subset of the usage of "Privilege" and not a normalized usage.

But I am frankly bothered that you equate MSNBC with CNN; they really aren't very comparable.  MSNBC is much more partisan (to the Left), CNN is much closer to center (though still noticeably Left).  You can probably tell I'm something of a "leftie" myself, but personally... I can barely tolerate MSNBC coverage.  I can get op-ed commentary & partisan crap easily; I want my news shows to be news, dammit!  If you watch MSNBC much, you must have a stronger stomach than I do.  My mom loves them, and I have to tolerate them a bit; usually, I will find lots of "chores to do" in another room.

CNN... sure, take 'em with a grain of salt, but also notice whether you're looking at their "commentary" segments or their "news" segments -- the news is (usually) closer to center, and more fact-based, with less editorial-opinion / pseudo-fact sneaking in.  But yes, they have leaned over leftward from their original mission.  They are chasing ratings, and telling their core audience the things they want to hear; and probably, to be honest, being pushed leftward by, e.g. Trump constantly harping on "fake news" (the people there are only human, too; and will react to the constant vitriol).

So it bothers me that you should equate them, when I see such a clear difference.

Also please note -- if you're watching Fox and considering it a "reasonable" news source:  it isn't.  It is (at least) as bad in its right-leaning errors as MSNBC is in left-lean; they have never been anything other than feeding their core audience what they want to hear.

 

23 hours ago, rsanford said:

Theoretically I agree with this but I have a feeling we would clash on the details. I may know nothing about endorinology but I might not trust someones judgement or maybe even their motives. I am very likely to hire my own endocrinology doctor and I would expect them to be listened too also.

Here is my question to you, based on what you said (and maybe we are drawing the analogy too far, and it falls apart?):  would you decide on your preferred diagnosis or treatment recommendation (or decide you just DIDN'T want the one you got, and ANY other would do), and then shop around until you got a doctor to support that?

Because I guarantee you'll find an incompetent or unethical quack who will take your money and say whatever you want said.

And honestly:  no, they don't necessarily get listened to.  Not every voice is worth listening to.   How to decide???

As a non-expert, faced by two conflicting experts, I would probably go looking for a large pool of experts (not gonna look it up, but I bet there's specialty endocrinology associations with "best-practices" recommendations; most medical specialties have them, and update them regularly) to see if there's consensus, and go with THAT.  If there IS no real consensus... then sure:  two doctors disagree, let's sit down and figure out how to proceed.

But is there good reason to doubt "your" 2nd-opinion doctor?  Ethics reviews, medical-board reviews, etc (or even just your endocrinologist's view being sharply at odds with the vast majority of other endocrinologists)?  Then I would be very unhappy giving them equal credence... because that's giving the one voice (in this case, the voice paid to agree with you) equal standing with an entire profession of healers...

Frankly, if I do get that large pool of experts with a consensus, I'm likely going to follow their advice... even if I don't like it.

I mean:  if 100 pilots tell me a plane is unsafe to fly, I'm not taking my family on board... even though we really wanted that trip to Hawaii... even though the airline found a pilot who says its safe.  100 pilots with no motivation except their own professional integrity, vs. the company selling me something, and their paid mouthpiece?

 

23 hours ago, rsanford said:

... Also if your the expert and you make a decision that's going to adversally affect me you will need to either convince me, the voter, or at least convince my representative in government.

Yeah, this is where things get sticky.  Getting socio-political data -- solid, unimpeachable data -- is often tougher than getting medical data.

I am big into making policy based on facts/data, instead of ideology and preconceptions.

Sometimes it's not clear from the available facts what policy should be set; but even with facts available showing a clear direction... policy all too often is more ideological than factual.  Cognitive and implicit biases (and ideology) lead to some very dubious decisions.

 

So again, my question:  how do I convince you? (or you convince me)?  I mean... this stuff is hard.  Endocrinology is complex and difficult!

Should your one endocrinologist, paid to have an opinion, should be given equal weight with the entire profession and multiple, repeating scientific studies?

Even if you find an unpaid / pro-bono expert (presumed better because money's influence can corrupt), should one person be given equal voice with 10, or 100?  Even if he's maybe just a whackadoodle with a pet theory and a love of the spotlight?

Should 100 random folk's opinions be given equal credence as 100 experts with evidence?

Etc...

 

 

[klecser]

To what extent should anyone's generalized distrust of expertise guide any policy?

To what extent should anyone's lack of experience with diversity in gaming drive their opinions about what level of diversity is "appropriate" in gaming?

From my perspective, this is all about how some people with very little verifiable table experience with diverse perspectives seems to want to set policy for everybody else about diverse perspectives at the gaming table.

What exactly makes Keepers without any successful experience with political correctness the judge, jury, and executioner for the hobby? People may object to that question, because how do I know they haven't been successful? I don't. I also don't consider "politics isn't allowed at my table" to be success. It's avoidance, not success.

Edited August 17, 2019 by klecser

[Ian Absentia]

9 hours ago, midwinter said:

Well, I'm not here to amuse people.

!i!

[Trifletraxor]

@midwinter I would appreciate if you would leave the topic for now. You have stated your views and are unmoved by the arguments against it, which fair enough, but the last pages show signs of trolling. The debate has gone on long enough and is as I've stated before utterly pointless. So I'm asking you - and the rest of the keyboard warriors of high emotion here - please drop the topic.

@Cultist of Sooty I can only talk for myself, but my views on the topic pretty much align with what @Sumath has written in this thread. I probably react more to foul language and reductio ad hitlerum than baiting rants, which might show itself in the few instances of moderation there has been.