Chaos and Broo Chicanery

[g33k]

24 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I disagree.

People who worship Malia is a non-propitiatory fashion are chaotics.  Since most such worshippers of Malia are broos and the people who worship Malia in a propitiatory fashion are not broos, broo worship of Malia is chaotic is a truism.

I guess we'll need to see how it's written up in the forthcoming Cults book.  This question may not even get fully resolved...

Mallia is associated with the Runes of Death and Darkness, her foundations and heritage. 

If she isn't essentially Chaotic, there are presumably non-Chaotic Rune-levels.  It would seem... odd ... for the most-active sorts of Malia-worship to be Chaotic.  Do the non-Chaotic ones see Chaotic worship as some sort of "heresy?"

Etc... 

[Akhôrahil]

20 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Apologies for the resurrection, but does this mean that the summoning and controlling (and perhaps even the siccing on someone) of disease spirits is not a chaotic act? 

It seems reasonable that a shaman could sic browbeaten disease spirits on people without it being chaotic. Worshipping disease, as opposed to merely sometimes using it, and spreading it on principle, is likely the boundary to chaoticism.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[metcalph]

12 minutes ago, g33k said:

Mallia is associated with the Runes of Death and Darkness, her foundations and heritage. 

She is also associated with chaos and has been since her first appearance in Cults of Terror.

 

[metcalph]

12 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It seems reasonable that a shaman could sic browbeaten disease spirits on people without it being chaotic. 

Still chaotic.  It might not be an active worship of Malia but it is still a chaotic act is the same way as hiring an assassin of Krasht to do in a rival.

[Rob Darvall]

21 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It seems reasonable that a shaman could sic browbeaten disease spirits on people without it being chaotic. Worshipping disease, as opposed to merely sometimes using it, and spreading it on principle, is likely the boundary to chaoticism.

I love the very fine line this can create.
Joe shaman beatles about Prax sicing disease spirits on his enemies til one day he drops back in to Bob's Bison Burgers only to be spontaneously attacked by the previously not-so-hostile clientele.

Hilarity ensues.

[Shiningbrow]

Worship of Malia is not required to summon disease spirits.

Also, if the intent of the summoning is a) selfish (to get POW), or b) to give immunity to a person/clan; and the destruction of the disease spirit - why chaotic?

[Qizilbashwoman]

41 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Still chaotic.

Is cursing your enemies with disease spirits Chaotic? That's just Darkness.

I think the issue is worshipping Mallia rather than trying to bribe Her. If you give Her magic points, you're following a Chaos god.

If you send disease spirits at another tribe, you're... doing your job.

[metcalph]

17 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Worship of Malia is not required to summon disease spirits.

Handling disease spirits is a chaotic act.

17 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Also, if the intent of the summoning is a) selfish (to get POW), or b) to give immunity to a person/clan; and the destruction of the disease spirit - why chaotic?

Chaos doesn't care about intent. - there's no guilty mind requirement for a chaotic act.  It's like violating a taboo, it doesn't matter whether you actions were good or bad, you are still trafficking with Disease Spirits, which are like chaotic, and in doing so you are promoting chaos.

The only possible exception would be the Summons of Evil or similar spells, which explicitly condemns the enemy as evil.  But then you have to face the most powerful disease spirit around, so good luck with that..

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

Handling disease spirits is a chaotic act.

But disease spirits aren't Chaotic unless the disease in question is a Chaos curse. Disease is within the remit of Darkness.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, g33k said:

There is, it seems, some degree of "it's part of the natural cycle" to Malia's work in the world, however unpleasant it may be.

Only Broos' worship is auto- Chaotic.

Sending demons against your foes is always a destructive use of magic.

Does ordering chaotic beings make you chaotic? Then you shouldn't shout a "stand back!" at a group of broos approaching your rescuee.

Does it have to be a magical command that makes you chaotic? Then don't use "Dominate human" on these broos (yes, with the penalty for being the wrong shape, but still works).

So you are the leader of a mercenary company serving as auxiliaries with the Lunar Empire, and general Roan-ur has made you the leader of a raid which also includes some of his special forces - broos, ogres, or whatever else chaotics he may have contracted. Does this make you a chaotic when you send these forces against an enemy?

Does a shaman capturing a disease spirit before it can infect anybody make this shaman chaotic? Does the shaman register as being chaotic while his fetch holds a captive spirit which is chaotic? Does holding a chaotic spirit captive taint the fetch (and thereby the shaman) with chaos?

It is possible to use disease spirits against broos, even broos who are initiates of Malia, as long as they have not become carriers of that disease. They may decide to become carriers after suffering a first consequence of that disease, but that will cost them 2 points of POW, which is a form of damage, too, making them easier to target with spells or other spirits.

Now, would such a use of a captured disease spirit count as being chaotic?

 

All of this is a closer brush with Chaos than is comfortable for most people, but I don't think any of this leaves an indelible chaotic taint with the practitioner.

 

5 hours ago, g33k said:

Presumably other worshipers can access the full suite of Disease spirits (and spells?  Are there any spell-caused disease in Malia's Rune Magic?) without automatically being Chaotic.

There is one type of Orlanth's spirits of reprisal, the impests, which is functionally a form of disease spirit.

[Darius West]

If anyone gets impregnated by a broo, the time honored method of sorting it out is to call a shaman for an abortion.  Spirit sight can see a baby within the mother, and a broo baby within the host.  You then send in a spirit to possess the broo baby in spirit combat, then you remove the possessed broo baby from the host, while it is co-operative, then you heal the host and  put the broo baby in a good thick jar and disrupt it to death.  If you happen to have a helper who can skewer it instead, so much the better.  I believe that this is also compatible with Chalana Arroy vows.  Technically this could also be done with an unwanted baby, but that would be against Chalana Arroy vows.  No doubt the earth goddesses have tricks for switching babies from mother to mother in their arsenal of tricks too. 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Darius West

[Joerg]

An involuntary initiate of Malia doesn't receive a Chaos taint. Neither does a normal victim possessed by the spirit or the disease it caused.

The ultra-strict interpretation by the usual suspect that you cannot worship any entity that turned to Chaos at some point without becoming chaotic creates a quandary for worshipers of Arkat. If any form of Arkat always is an aspect of Arkat the Chaos Monster, then 80% of the Safelstrans are chaotic, and not just some outliers like the Guild of Chaos Monks or the high Register of the Boristi.

And by the same logic, worship of the Seven Mothers automatically makes you a Chaotic because it gives you access to the spell Chaos Gift.

But the logic seems to be that you have to be a recipient of the spell Chaos Gift in order to gain the taint.

 

What deities do we know that converted to Chaos?

There is of course the Unholy Trio, but did Mallia actually take on the Chaos taint? Probably from proximity, similar to anyone unlucky enough to enter the environment of the Maggot in that infamous tunnel complex in northern Dragon Pass.

Vivamort got captured by the Devil, and sacrificed his soul. And we usually learn that the Esrolians equate their evil Death coming for Ernalda is equated with Vivamort.

However, I think that the invading Death deity Tada hid Eiritha from by burying her under her hills was a non-Chaotic Nontraya. His encounter with Ernalda on the other hand may have fallen already after his encounter with Wakboth - but not necessarily so.

This leaves a lot of the undead horde of Nontrayan subservient spirits beings of the Underworld but not actively Chaotics.

[Bill the barbarian]

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

An involuntary initiate of Malia doesn't receive a Chaos taint

Did I mss this earlier? If so, I do apologize, but what is an" involuntary initiate of Malia’?" Someone forced into worship in a propitiatory manner to the degree they are willing to sacrifice a point of POW.... sounds like a slippery slope...

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Did I mss this earlier? If so, I do apologize, but what is an" involuntary initiate of Malia’?" Someone forced into worship in a propitiatory manner to the degree they are willing to sacrifice a point of POW.... sounds like a slippery slope...

I needed to check out Cults of Terror (actually the Cults Compendium p.257, but RQ3 Lords of Terror would have worked, too) to find the exact rules. Basically, if a disease is killing you, you can sacrifice 2 points of POW and become a carrier of the disease that will infect others, but you are no longer dying. This is called an involuntary initiate of Malia. You aren't required to infect anyone actively, and your propitiary initiation has already feld Malia with twice the permanent POW  voluntary initiation would have cost, and you still are infectious - a win-win for Malia.

You can still go to a Chalana Arroy priestess once you have stopped your lethal disease this way, but be prepared to pay a higher price for the cure, and to be tossed into an isolation cell for a prolonged time while the Arroyans cure time-critical patients. But it beats losing lots of points in the affected stat, or exploding from Thunder Lungs or similar fun diseases.

[David Scott]

On 9/28/2019 at 8:31 AM, Brootse said:

Mallia has a Chaos rune according to Bestiary p. 93. Carry Disease spell uses Death and Chaos runes and cause disease uses Darkness and Chaos runes. Mallias diseases are chaotic.

From discussions with Jeff for Malia in Prax, Mallia has Death & Darkness when propitiated and the Chaos Rune for When Broos worship her.

For HQG disease spirits, it's clear to me that her diseases fall into three rune categories:

Death, the attribute reducing diseases, not Chaotic (they kill you).

Darkness, the minor ailments, not Chaotic (don't normally kill you).

Chaos, Plague,  Chaotic.

You can propitiate the first two, but not the last, which is the goal of all good HeroQuesting Mallia initiates.

9 hours ago, g33k said:

Presumably other worshipers can access the full suite of Disease spirits (and spells?)

Like Peter's analogy to protection money to gangsters, that doesn't make you a gangster, no one propitiates Malia with the intent of accessing her magics, that's called joking up.

9 hours ago, g33k said:

 Are there any spell-caused disease in Malia's Rune Magic?) without automatically being Chaotic.

Mallia's three special Rune spells are unique to her:

ALTER SPIRIT OF DISEASE (Chaos)

CARRY (DISEASE) (Darkness or Chaos)

CAUSE (DISEASE) (Death or Chaos)

 

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

Still chaotic.  It might not be an active worship of Malia but it is still a chaotic act is the same way as hiring an assassin of Krasht to do in a rival.

You think you would register on Sense Chaos after doing that (I mean, more than you would from just hiring any old assassin in the first place)? I’m not so certain. Also, it raises the question about whether it matters if you knew about the assassin’s allegiance.

Since Praxians can obtain Broo mercenaries without then being killed by their own Storm Bulls for registrering on Sense Chaos, this kind of thing doesn’t seem as though it would taint you (if done in moderation and for otherwise non-Chaotic ends).

Edited December 27, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[g33k]

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

...

Mallia's three special Rune spells are unique to her:

ALTER SPIRIT OF DISEASE (Chaos)

CARRY (DISEASE) (Darkness or Chaos)

CAUSE (DISEASE) (Death or Chaos)

So let's take "Cause (Disease)" (via Death Rune).  It COULD be Chaotic, but is not.  Presumably there are some foully-unnatural Chaos diseases that the mere Death-Rune version of the spell cannot "Cause()" ... but we aren't talking about those for THIS instance.

Let's say the caster succeeds -- the target has the Disease.  No Chaos involved, it seems.

What just happened?

Did the Malian actually Summon a disease-spirit to attack the victim?  Did they "create" a new disease-spirit (what would that mean)?  Did they just create a vulnerability, which an ambient/local Disease-Spirit took advantage of?  Did they cast some sort of curse or "target designator" such that all the local spirits did an attack-until-target-catches-Named-Disease?  Or...?

And, of course, the Big Question -- is this, in fact, something non-Chaotic?

Edited December 28, 2019 by g33k

[Pentallion]

21 hours ago, metcalph said:

She is also associated with chaos and has been since her first appearance in Cults of Terror.

 

So Subere is chaotic then?   I don't think so.  She bade Malia to guard the secret of death because nobody liked going near Malia and her disease spirits.  This was long before Chaos entered the world.  Diseases weren't chaotic.  Malia wasn't chaotic.  Thed originally wasn't chaotic. Even the Mad God Ragnaglar wasn't chaotic.  Only when the three of them brought the Devil into the world did they get associated with Chaos.

What possible difference would that make to the disease spirits that existed since the time of Subere?

[g33k]

33 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

... Even the Mad God Ragnaglar wasn't chaotic.  Only when the three of them brought the Devil into the world did they get associated with Chaos...

Although I've got to admit, I find Ragnalar's actions there to BE essentially Chaotic, even though he wasn't "yet" infected.  I think on the whole, he was infected even "before" then.  Maybe it happened in some Chaotic non-Time-bound effect whereby Ragnalar ALWAYS had some echo or resonance of chaos-to-come within him.  Maybe it was from his failure in the Pit.

I dunno...  But my gutcheck says "already Chaotic."

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I think on the whole, he was infected even "before" then.  Maybe it happened in some Chaotic non-Time-bound effect whereby Ragnalar ALWAYS had some echo or resonance of chaos-to-come within him.  Maybe it was from his failure in the Pit.

His failure in the pit drove Him mad. Essentially, He suffered horrible sexual abuse. Nobody understood this, because He "walked it off", which let it fester inside Him. I think we literally all know men like this. I do. They either implode or explode if they aren't helped.

Thanks, murderous uncles, for bringing the heat-death of the universe into existence.

When we talk about "toxic masculinity" in real life, this is one of the effects. Without help, they turn on others, themselves, or (usually) both.

Ragnaglar sure did.

But I digress.

One of the reasons I think we need to be clear about disease spirits is that

* disease is darkness, not Chaos. Chaos can be in any rune: there are chaos wind spirits. Icky =/= chaos

* when we talk about shamanism, 95% of it involves disease in real life. don't take this away from me! it's literally a shaman's primary job to handle spirits, either throwing them out or siccing them on an unfriendly tribe. if you had to describe shamanism in a sentence, that would be most of the sentence.

[g33k]

16 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

His failure in the pit drove Him mad. Essentially, He suffered horrible sexual abuse. Nobody understood this, because He "walked it off", which let it fester inside Him. I think we literally all know men like this. I do. They either implode or explode if they aren't helped ...

I'm just gonna point at the old Gloranthan "rape is Chaos" trope...

Yep Ragnalar was Chaotic from long before the "Unholy Trio."

But it didn't start with him.

[Shiningbrow]

Undead (and their creation) is not chaotic.

Slavery is not chaotic.

Succing passion spirits on someone to drive them mad is not chaotic.

Killing, including genocide, is not chaotic. Removing a person's soul from their body is not chaotic.

 

Chaotic is not simply evil (or "icky", as @Qizilbashwoman said above).

 

[scott-martin]

13 hours ago, g33k said:

Although I've got to admit, I find Ragnalar's actions there to BE essentially Chaotic, even though he wasn't "yet" infected.  I think on the whole, he was infected even "before" then.  Maybe it happened in some Chaotic non-Time-bound effect whereby Ragnalar ALWAYS had some echo or resonance of chaos-to-come within him.  Maybe it was from his failure in the Pit.

The backstory around the Pit is interesting. "These were all uncles of the children gods, so although they hated them they could not kill them. Instead, they decided to destroy them without having to take responsibility for the deed. They lied to the children, and said that they had prepared tests for each of them, and that afterwards they would be gods. In truth, they took the children to various wicked places which they could not understand, and they put a child in each. They hoped that one would destroy the other, and thereby lessen the number of foes."

These were preexisting sites that frightened even the uncles. But that last line has always relied on broken grammar for its ambivalence. Were they hoping that the site would destroy the child or that one of the children would destroy the others? All you need is one success to poison the band of brothers or at least lessen their number. 

The people who play the uncles now in initiations probably don't set up for the Sex Pit. It just worked too well and instead of revealing the initiate's hidden strength only succeeded in its wickedness. Mourn the other brother but pray he doesn't come back.

[Akhôrahil]

17 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The people who play the uncles now in initiations probably don't set up for the Sex Pit. It just worked too well and instead of revealing the initiate's hidden strength only succeeded in its wickedness. Mourn the other brother but pray he doesn't come back.

I could imagine things sometimes going awry, though, just as with how Red Cow initiations can take a swerve into Ogre initiation. If you find yourself in the Sex Pit during initiation, you’re in massive trouble.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

I could imagine things sometimes going awry, though, just as with how Red Cow initiations can take a swerve into Ogre initiation. If you find yourself in the Sex Pit during initiation, you’re in massive trouble.

The Sex Pit is arranged ahead of time, in real life, not in liminal time. No chance at escape is given because it is not liminal, it is real, it's gangsta shit.

And the woman is unknown, so it's not a "crime", per se.