Help me understand lunar theology, philosophy and ideology

[scott-martin]

20 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

can

Operative word there. It's a fine theological point: the cult considers every place where they make a Market Circle to be a seat of worship, full stop. Drive the pegs, say the words, burn the points and that's holy ground where anybody can worship and replenish until you pull the pegs and move on.

The question is whether people can keep the points in reserve in case they need a Market on the go. If not, yeah, you're going to have to get back to town or cross paths with the next Free Trader on the road who has the pegs, free set-up time and the points to spend. If he or she spends the points, lay out the beads the next morning and you're worshipping. You both get a shot at getting your points back. Your friend is out nothing but time. 

Of course if you're within a day of the next standing store, it's faster to start walking.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

The question is whether people can keep the points in reserve in case they need a Market on the go. If not, yeah, you're going to have to get back to town or cross paths with the next Free Trader on the road who has the pegs, free set-up time and the points to spend. If he or she spends the points, lay out the beads the next morning and you're worshipping. You both get a shot at getting your points back. Your friend is out nothing but time. 

 

Not that an Issaries travelling merchant would find such a task to be onerous or a chore. That’s the meat and taters of yer itinerant trader, surely. Finding another individual with something one wants and trying to figure out what to trade to get it. And if a market is required to get it, why waste a perfectly good opportunity...

Quote

 

Ice cream! Getcher tootsie frootsie ice cream!
—chico marx

 

 

[scott-martin]

Just now, Bill the barbarian said:

Not that an Issaries travelling merchant would find such a task to be onerous or a chore. That’s the meat and taters of yer itinerant trader, surely. Finding another individual with something one wants and trying to figure out what to trade to get it. And if a market is required to get it, why waste a perfectly good opportunity..

It's just the cost of doing business. The Harstings stay put and the Market comes to them, so you don't need a lot of priests on the circuit. 

All traveling sales jokes aside, the real constraint on the pop-up shrine store is worshipper population. You still need the ice cream truck to gather a total of 75 kids who know the score for the point replenish on wild day. The Harstings can come running as long as they know you're open. Good for everyone going into the territory to know the routes and keep the customers incentivized. Safety in routine.

[Bill the barbarian]

5 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

All traveling sales jokes aside, the real constraint on the pop-up shrine store is worshipper population. You still need the ice cream truck to gather a total of 75 kids who know the score for the point replenish on wild day.

All joking aside... I dare ya ta say that to a Eurmali, I dare ya!

Anywho, simply do what chico does, set up beside  the track...

 

Ice cream! Getcher tootsie frootsie ice cream!

Edited November 24, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[scott-martin]

3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Ice cream! Getcher tootsie frootsie ice cream!

God smiles, points are exchanged, everybody happy.

My initial "beads on the shingle" was of course too vague and people have every right to push back on it. Now, however, an opportunity has opened up for emergency deployment of Market Makers to operate as a kind of portable lightbringer "glowspot network" or "glowline." Send them out to population centers so they're in place on Fireday and can set up, protect the sites until the doors open and suddenly all the friendlies have a place to worship. 

Mother Market recoups dues from all friendlies not currently paid up and splits the door with the priests. All we need is a month lead time to get everyone Harst membership so they're good to go. Go go go. It's the Hero Wars. If we're lucky this will get built into Reaching Storm.

[Bill the barbarian]

12 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

My initial "beads on the shingle" was of course too vague and people have every right to push back on it. Now, however, an opportunity has opened up for emergency deployment of Market Makers to operate as a kind of portable lightbringer "glowspot network" or "glowline." Send them out to population centers so they're in place on Fireday and can set up, protect the sites until the doors open and suddenly all the friendlies have a place to worship. 

I have a feeling after having read your stuff as long as I have that I will never have a reason to "push back on it" with you! Love your stuff and incredibly friendly manner so really hope you saw no malice, yet still I must sincerely apologies for having a chuckle but please no, it was not at your expense but out of love for what you have brought to the community. If it gave you a smile my work here is done (poor trade for you, a smile and a chuckle for years of great yeoman service, but it’s the best I can do!).

Really, @scott-martin my first response minus joke was to say that I agreed with your idea of the merchant requiring little more than the beads, shingle, RPs and  someone to trade with and something to trade.

Cheers

Edited November 24, 2019 by Bill the barbarian
old! get off my lawn!

[scott-martin]

1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said:

yet still I must sincerely apologies for having a chuckle

Push back makes us all stronger! It's how dumb ideas become actual tactics and change our hobby world. 

I always love your commentary and that of everyone here. We're all in this together.

As for Issaries I waste a lot of attention and money supporting puppet shows because I keep the story of how the merchant got so caught up in his routine that he froze up. Eurmal pushed him over and before you knew it they were all laughing again.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

@scott-martin The operative word is that the rules state that all "Temples are Markets".  Which, as proven by the Myths of Venn, does not mean that all markets are temples.  Now, a friendly GM might allow what you propose, I might, but would force you to attract 75 shippers.  A strict GM would squash your idea.

Issaries merchants use the Create Market spell that sanctifies the area as a Market and Create Great Market that lumps them all together. I would allow a sanctify spell to be stacked with the Create Market to make it a sanctified area.

[Qizilbashwoman]

Uh so the problem I'm seeing here is that existing markets in Lunar Sartar are going to be sacralised to Etyries.

While we've seen Argan Argar and Issaries share markets-as-temples in Nochet, I don't think that's the case in Lunar Sartar. Etyries has subcults that are devoted to proselytisation, like Orvenus Speak the Words.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[scott-martin]

14 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Uh so the problem I'm seeing here is that existing markets in Lunar Sartar are going to be sacralised to Etyries.

 

It's covered.

Who owns the Create Market spell? Who can turn it off for Etyries if there was actually a problem? Does it go the other way? Business is business.

[Eff]

14 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Uh so the problem I'm seeing here is that existing markets in Lunar Sartar are going to be sacralised to Etyries.

While we've seen Argan Argar and Issaries share markets-as-temples in Nochet, I don't think that's the case in Lunar Sartar. Etyries has subcults that are devoted to proselytisation, like Orvenus Speak the Words.

I'm not sure that's the case. Apart from MGF as a principle, Lunar cults don't appear to generally displace pre-existing cults. Deezola doesn't replace Oria or Ernalda or Chalana Arroy or Erissa, Yanafal Tarnils doesn't displace local wargods, Irippi Ontor hasn't replaced Buserian. In general, Lunar cults seem to place themselves "atop" existing cults as a point of entry to the Lunar Way (and not incidentally form a kind of bureaucracy as a consequence). 

And we know that Issaries was the god of markets in Peloria before the Lunars, because Lokarnos is a god of wagons/tribute collection, rather than free trade, so unless we presume Etyries has completely replaced Issaries in the Empire, entirely unlike any other Lunar cult, I just don't see a Gloranthan reason why Issaries would be suppressed in Sartar. 

That being said, what does Etyries do that makes her cult a distinct one from Issaries? Perhaps Etyries focuses on the creation of large trading enterprises as opposed to the small individual traders of traditional Issaries life? (And of course the bookkeeping techniques associated with that.) So the markets will be sacralized to both under the occupation. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

what does Etyries do that makes her cult a distinct one from Issaries?

Etyries is different in that She can replace Issaries; in all facets, She is able to replace His worship. She additionally replaces Lokarnos; there was even a Dart War about it.

This is different than, say, the three scholar deities, whose focuses are very different. Etyries has caravan and outreach; she manages established home markets; she has tribute and explorer.

Also, Issaries in Lunar Sartar is a different thing than elsewhere because that's a hotbed of rebel troublemaking. Sure, they say they're tolerant of everything but Orlanth but edging out the goddess of markets?

[g33k]

Let me just say, for the record -- I'm enjoying the different POV's on the Merchant Gods, and enjoying the different game-able Glorantha's they each present!  Y*GWV, M*GWV, E*GWV

 

 

* Your

* My

* Everyone's

 

[Eff]

22 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Etyries is different in that She can replace Issaries; in all facets, She is able to replace His worship. She additionally replaces Lokarnos; there was even a Dart War about it.

This is different than, say, the three scholar deities, whose focuses are very different. Etyries has caravan and outreach; she manages established home markets; she has tribute and explorer.

Also, Issaries in Lunar Sartar is a different thing than elsewhere because that's a hotbed of rebel troublemaking. Sure, they say they're tolerant of everything but Orlanth but edging out the goddess of markets?

I have several objections to this. I'll start with the mostly purely Gloranthan one.

Firstly, it supposes that the Lunar Empire performs a massive top-down social transformation within its borders, one which touches every single facet of daily life, solely and specifically for replacing the existing infrastructure of trade from the top down. This is completely uncharacteristic for them, and it raises the question of why they don't do this for any other facet of the Lunar Way, especially ones that would seem much more core to it than the question of which god the village merchants pray to to ensure their rice harvest makes it to market and fetches a good price. That is, why aren't they engaging in social engineering to crush Dara Happan traditionalism (which has been a frequent problem for the Empire!) or to eliminate slavery, or something? This ends up handing the Lunars a level of power they never really demonstrate elsewhere, and thematically disrupts the sense that the Lunars are trying desperately to balance forces that could very easily overwhelm them if they aren't handled properly. 

Secondly, there's not really any sense that the Lunars want to replace any gods beyond possibly Orlanth (certainly they suppress Orlanth's worship, but their rhetoric is about healing and calming him, not about eliminating him). In other words, if the Lunars make no effort to replace Ernalda in Tarsh, as opposed to explaining how Ernalda is related to the Red Goddess, and if they have a ready-made explanation for a Lunar relationship for Issaries, by declaring Etyries is Issaries's daughter, (or taking advantage of a pre-existing belief related to that), then why would they not do with Issaries what they do with Ernalda? 

Thirdly, I feel that this is something of a backwards way to approach things. If we see a pattern in Lunar deities where they more or less have a kind of non-overlapping magisterium with regards to the existing gods of various cultures, such that Irippi Ontor coexists with Buserian and Lhankor Mhy, Yanafal Tarnils coexists with Shargash and Daxdarius and Urvairinius and Humakt and Polaris and Yelmalio, Deezola coexists with Oria and Ernalda and Chalana Arroy and Erissa, Teelo Norri doesn't displace other youth and childhood deities, Jakaleel's spirit practices haven't wiped out existing spiritism, etc. etc., then why would we presume that a particular deity breaks the pattern? In other words, why wouldn't we assume Etyries is like other Lunar deities in that she's a deity that's been adopted and used for the purposes of running a multicultural empire that explicitly sets its ruling class apart from all the cultures that it rules and adopts specific deities that can be set above existing ones without creating problems? And then once we have looked at her from this functionalist perspective, we can develop the ways in which she fits this pattern.

Fourthly, it's just not really fun to tell Sartarite and Praxian players, "Okay, here's this god of traders and rhetoricians and diplomats, but his cult was effectively wiped out and forced underground until this very year, (or is currently forced underground if you're playing at any point between 1602 and 1625) and all the cool stuff you can read about in the background materials... just doesn't exist anymore. It will all have to be reconstructed." And then there is no other option- Etyries isn't playable as of yet, and won't be playable until GaGoG comes out. It's bad from a "making Glorantha playable" perspective because it's taking core setting elements (most people are going to be reading Lightbringer stuff where Issaries is prominent as their introductory/early material) and severely restricting them in the most developed parts of the setting to play in. 

Fifthly, I do think it kind of degrades a major conflict in the setting. If the conflict isn't "Sedenya versus Orlanth" but "The Moon versus the Storm Tribe", the question of collaboration becomes a lot less complicated because it's a genuinely existential conflict. Ernaldans can't say that there's always another way when the Red Goddess wants to eliminate them entirely, etc., whereas if it's something where it seems like 90% of Sartarite life can go on as usual, just with some slight modifications to make Destor and Barntar the names you use in the ceremonies, then the internal conflicts within Sartar become much more mutable. Obviously this is less of an issue if you start at the default RQG date of post-Dragonrise, but pre-Dragonrise Sartar should be gamable and the conflicts caused by the occupation should be, and this is of course all my opinion, very much ones that aren't clear-cut for players, even if characters find it very clear-cut that Uncle Vengaharl did something unforgivable by going to the Seven Mothers temple in Wilmskirk for food for the stead during the Great Winter. 

That being said, I am only laying out my reasons why I find this perspective unconvincing for myself and arguing for why I think my take on Etyries is more fruitful. 

[JonL]

The Lunars made Gringle a tax tribune at one point, so they're evidently not actively hostile to the Issaries cult.

I would expect the mercantile gods & their cults to negotiate a deal for coexistence. It's what they do.

Edited November 25, 2019 by JonL

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Etyries is different in that She can replace Issaries; in all facets, She is able to replace His worship.

Actually, no. She does not have the ability to magically create neutral market grounds. 

[Grievous]

12 hours ago, Eff said:

Secondly, there's not really any sense that the Lunars want to replace any gods beyond possibly Orlanth (certainly they suppress Orlanth's worship, but their rhetoric is about healing and calming him, not about eliminating him). 

I could see Orlanth in the Red Goddess' pantheon and mythology relegated to mostly a bandit god, venerated by outcasts and renegades, a king of nothing but his band, who occasionally (with the Goddess' indirect or direct guidance) takes his rebellion against tyrants and authority figures who have lost their righteousness (ultimately as judged by Sedenya, of course). His natural ill-manned oafishness thus sometimes helps to restore things to a better order. Sedenya can't entirely fix the bandit god, but she can ensure that his contribution to the cosmos finds it's right course.

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Please elaborate.  E.g., Do you really think Issaries Markets are "neutral"?  And which rules are you referencing for Etyries?

Etyries has never had the ability to create markets or neutral grounds. Her short writeup was done back in RQ3 Gods of Glorantha Cults Book. She had Rune magics of Exchange Spells, Path Watch, and Reflection. Only Issaries has the magics to create warded market spaces. There are no changes in that regard coming for RQG.

 

[JonL]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Etyries has never had the ability to create markets or neutral grounds. Her short writeup was done back in RQ3 Gods of Glorantha Cults Book. She had Rune magics of Exchange Spells, Path Watch, and Reflection. Only Issaries has the magics to create warded market spaces. There are no changes in that regard coming for RQG.

 

I'm not surprised. Issaries is the owner of the Communication/Trade rune. He should have more to offer with it, just as Orlanth's worshippers can do more with Storm/Air than Odaya or Urox worshippers can.

[Sir_Godspeed]

44 minutes ago, Grievous said:

I could see Orlanth in the Red Goddess' pantheon and mythology relegated to mostly a bandit god, venerated by outcasts and renegades, a king of nothing but his band, who occasionally (with the Goddess' indirect or direct guidance) takes his rebellion against tyrants and authority figures who have lost their righteousness (ultimately as judged by Sedenya, of course). His natural ill-manned oafishness thus sometimes helps to restore things to a better order. Sedenya can't entirely fix the bandit god, but she can ensure that his contribution to the cosmos finds it's right course.

From what I can remember, quite a few cultures outside of the Orlanthi heartland conflate Orlanth and Eurmal, making their Orlanth-amalogue sort of a storm-bandit-trickster-lover sort of fellow. I believe that happened in Imther (unless that's based entirely on @jajagappa's interesting material) and... pre-Lightrbringer Ralios, I think? I might be overstating this trend.

Then there's Danfive Xaron, which is arguably the stand-in for Orlanth (or Eurmal??) in the Seven Mothers-Lightbringer glossary. Repentant criminal now serving the Goddess. Good boy. Sit.

/aside

[jajagappa]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I believe that happened in Imther (unless that's based entirely on @jajagappa's interesting material)

That was purely based on my campaign and subsequent writeups of that. But the line between Orlanth and Eurmal can be quite thin.

Just consider what happens when you bring two Air Runes together - you recognize Disorder lies at the heart!

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by jajagappa

[Joerg]

23 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That was purely based on my campaign and subsequent writeups of that. But the line between Orlanth and Eurmal can be quite thin.

Just consider what happens when you bring two Air Runes together - you recognize Disorder lies at the heart!

I always thought of Disorder as overlapping moon runes:

 

If you squint, you'll find one harmony for each three disorders.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Joerg

[JonL]

WRT Gods and runes generally. Halberd Games compiled and hosts an excellent index and concordance of gods and runes with references to source works. It more or less uses the same Rune roster as the Guide & HQG. It predates RQG, so it doesn't list the compromise-to-the-character-sheet substitutions, but helpfully also refrains from going deep into the weeds with super niche sub-runes like Ice and Victory or tons of runes that just represent a god's name from the big Issaries-era roster. (The latter is handy when you're looking for a deep-cut, but muddies the waters otherwise.)

It would be nice once GaGoG drops to do a reference mapping of their character-sheet-substitutions to in-fiction runes, e.g. Death & Beast standing in for Eternal Battle for Urox, Harmony standing in for Communication/Trade/Equal-Exchange for Issaries. (Outright revisions to the setting-as-published like giving Dendara Ernalda's runes are a different matter, but it would be good to document them in one place as well too.)

[JonL]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I always thought of overlapping moon runes:

 

Yet Stasis is there too. That's Moon for ya.

[Eff]

Obvious, Disorder is what happens when you remove the middle string of Harmony, causing the other two to get tangled. 😛