Sorcery as presented in The Smoking Ruins

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

@Jeorg:  I didn't know you had it in you   Spirit combat munchkinnery at its finest!  I think you could outmunchkin my munchkins!

The curse of being a GM...

But better than to bring that curse other people's gamemastering. (Unless giving them pointers how to make the most of their precious monsters)

There is one Humakt rune spell which may be anti-climactic in spirit encounters: Release Ghost. The question is, whether that spell works on other bound spirits (like Urvantan's Guardian Spirits - which btw is a name mis-appropriated from Daka Fal ancestor worship

 

  

40 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

I disagree.  It explicity comes with a condition, that condition that only you can use the spirits mps and it also has the condition that the spirit can only be commanded to give its magic points, not cast spells.  These conditions prevent a shaman from doing anything but seeing the spirit.

There is a third command that can be given - to leave the crystal and ... e.g. attack its former master in spirit combat.

The condition is that in order to to take MP out, either from the spirit or from the storage, someone has to touch the crystal. If it is an enchantment, for an extra POW you can add a restriction as to who may use the enchantment (or who may command a spirit in the binding). No such option with a dead crystal serving as temporary housing for a spirit.

And you can take out MP only to fuel spells - there is no way to re-distribute stored MP. A spirit may be ordered to put its MP into a storage rather than to give them directly to your magic.

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Joerg

[Pentallion]

2 hours ago, Kloster said:

Only you can use the MP, this is true, and only you can cast the spell known by the spirit, but anybody that can perceive it can target it with a control spell that automatically succeed (p250).

The rules on spirit trapping crystals are pretty clear:  you can ONLY use the spirit to draw upon its magic points.  You can't use a spirit trapped in a crystal to cast spells.

pg 122 (GM Pack):

Quote

. . Binding a Spirit: If one does not wish to put
a bound spirit into an animal as a familiar, one
must find or buy a spirit trapping crystal. Once
a spirit has been bound within such a crystal, the
POW of the spirit is available for the use of the
binder. The spirit may not throw spells itself or
take other independent action unless the binder is
attempting to control more spirits than their CHA

Nor does it say anywhere that binding the spirit in the crystal gives you allied spirit capabilities so you can't cast its spells either.  Also, it binds the spirit.  shamans and others with control spells cannot simply cast control over it while it is trapped in its binding.  The conditions of a spirit trapping crystal supercede that.

The part on page 250 you're missing is this:

Quote

Anyone
that can use the item can also cast spells on the entity trapped
inside: they do not need to be in physical contact with the
item to affect the entity with spells, although they must use
magical means of seeing (such as Pierce Veil, Second Sight, or
Soul Sight) to target spells against a bound entity in this way

That' bolded part is the kicker.  per the rules on spirit trapping crystals only the binder can use the item.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Pentallion

[Shiningbrow]

"Also, a control spell supersedes the innate control held over an entity bound into an item. An enchanter who does not use conditions (see below) to restrict the use of their items may find their bound entities stolen or turned against them by crafty opponents using the proper control spells. Anyone that can use the item can also cast spells on the entity trapped inside: they do not need to be in physical contact with the item to affect the entity with spells, although they must use magical means of seeing (such as Pierce Veil, Second Sight, or Soul Sight) to target spells against a bound entity in this way."

 

RQG P250

 

Also, there are other bits that are contradictory... Some bits say you can use the spells (or command the spirit to), other bits say no....

[Joerg]

42 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Also, there are other bits that are contradictory... Some bits say you can use the spells (or command the spirit to), other bits say no....

Use a control spell to get the spirit out of its shell, cast its spells as many times as required, and then return to the crystal. Use the spirit's own MP to do so.

This is the only real use the "control (species)" spells really have in the hands of non-shamans (or other folk who can discorporate and wrestle down spirits). A spirit overcome in spirit combat is useless for at least half a day if you trap it before it loses visibility (and otherwise gone for the day), and the victor may well be weakened significantly, too. Embodied beings are prone and unconscious.

Dissuading players new to RQ from taking "Control (Species)" is a common task for the GM.

[Shiningbrow]

Well, I was more referring to whether you can get it to do other stuff within the binding without a control spell. 

A control spell might just get the spirit to stop the spirit combat! (But yeah, very situational).

[Kloster]

10 hours ago, Pentallion said:

The rules on spirit trapping crystals are pretty clear:  you can ONLY use the spirit to draw upon its magic points.  You can't use a spirit trapped in a crystal to cast spells.

RQG p 366:

Spirits may be bound into a magic crystal, or into a specially prepared object or animal as described in the Binding Enchantment section (page 249). The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells.

[buckwheats]

I hope some of you can help me with my following question. I too was thoroughly underwhelmed by Sorcery as shown in TSR and so I was in trouble.

As a new and enthusiastic GM to RQG I presented Sorcery to one of my players a week prior to TSRs release as the kind of Sorcery the others don't have and as such it would be his characters u.s.p..  Since he trusts me, he took the bait creating a Lhankor Mhy initiated Scribe (he didn't want to go for the philosopher).

So now I am thinking, what should his next steps after gaining some experience be?

How could I help him achieve a modicum of impact in the game (provide him with a sorcerous entourage? magic items? bound spirits? new spells?).

All this should be using RAW in their best, player-friendliest version. I am no friend of munchkinnery, but since we did some D&D lately I wanna soften the shock of transition a bit. 😉

Thanks you all.

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by buckwheats

[Shiningbrow]

If it's hack'n'slash, then it's not going to be easy. If it's a lot more roleplay, and using skills more, then he'll be much more valuable. 

So, basically, as a GM, make the characters worthwhile and useful.

[buckwheats]

10 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

If it's hack'n'slash, then it's not going to be easy. If it's a lot more roleplay, and using skills more, then he'll be much more valuable. 

So, basically, as a GM, make the characters worthwhile and useful.

It could be both since we will start with the new Apple Lane adventures and transition to The Smoking Ruins afterwards, if they can be persuaded to it. I wanna give my players the possibility to choose to go wherever and follow whichever play-stile they want. So they could derail "my plans" pretty quickly, if they choose to leave Apple Lane to itself and head in the general direction of Magastas Pool.

Please don't get me wrong. I don't think, that there is something wrong with Sorcery in RQG. It is not my intention to try to emulate D&D. See I am aware, that Sorcery in RQG has a much different role in Glorantha, It is an asset in rpg-heavy adventures, that I wanna highlight for sure. But since I am new to RQG (but sure not RPGs as a whole) I just wanted some pointers from those who know more about Runequest.

[Bill the barbarian]

24 minutes ago, buckwheats said:

Please don't get me wrong. I don't think, that there is something wrong with Sorcery in RQG. It is not my intention to try to emulate D&D. See I am aware, that Sorcery in RQG has a much different role in Glorantha, It is an asset in rpg-heavy adventures, that I wanna highlight for sure. But since I am new to RQG (but sure not RPGs as a whole) I just wanted some pointers from those who know more about Runequest.

Alas, I am afraid that my advice may come to you too late...

I really do not recommend sorcerers to new players or GMs as they are complicated. I ran one in the simpler RQ 3 and found it was not as bad as everyone said for complexity so that being said, hang on for a day or two and maybe one of the wise will get back to you with some simplifying tips. Trial by fire might make you the resident expert in a few months and I will be coming to you for tips to make my sorcery easier.

Cheers

[Joerg]

On 12/28/2019 at 10:33 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Well, I was more referring to whether you can get it to do other stuff within the binding without a control spell. 

The binding gives you one command for free when you release the spirit. You will have to re-summon it, and then convince it to re-enter the binding.

On 12/28/2019 at 10:33 AM, Shiningbrow said:

A control spell might just get the spirit to stop the spirit combat! (But yeah, very situational).

No, it won't, because for Control to work it must have been fought down to zero MP.

I really wish that RQG had replaced that mechanic, or introduced an alternative spirit magic spell to "strongly suggest" behavior in spirits.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, buckwheats said:

I hope some of you can help me with my following question. I too was thoroughly underwhelmed by Sorcery as shown in TSR and so I was in trouble.

As a new and enthusiastic GM to RQG I presented Sorcery to one of my players a week prior to TSRs release as the kind of Sorcery the others don't have and as such it would be his characters u.s.p..  Since he trusts me, he took the bait creating a Lhankor Mhy initiated Scribe (he didn't want to go for the philosopher).

So now I am thinking, what should his next steps after gaining some experience be?

How could I help him achieve a modicum of impact in the game (provide him with a sorcerous entourage? magic items? bound spirits? new spells?).

Place him in on-and-off service with an accomplished sorcerer who may teach him some stuff and who might provide some tools (on loan, or enchanting some for a fee and most of the POW donation). You definitely want a spirit catcher on call to get good spirits, but if the character is in an assistant relationship with a more powerful sorcerer that assistant might get handed down some of the second-best spirits now that master has found/obtained a better one.

Every heroic character may wish to have a sorcerous entourage, as there are a number of sorcery spells and blessings which are just too nice. The sorcerous protective circle is emanating from its focal point, unlike the Warding and similar effects that have a fixed boundary, and require you to move the boundary markers. Having a sorcerer to enchant a standard (may be a secondary one if your unit wyter opposes carrying sorcery on its item) does a great job to ward your less magical followers from magical and spirit attacks.

Plus your support sorcerer can provide long lasting magics at rather low cost, and thus would be a good retainer, not even necessary to take on expeditions.

The Smoking Ruins has examples of three of the most likely types of sorcerers you may encounter now the Lunars have let the arena for a while - Lhankor Mhytes, Arkati, and Rokari. There are of course others - Aeolians, God Forgotten, or other ones brought ashore by the Opening.

 

Your fledgeling sorcerer can also be brought into contact with the Free Philosophers, Tosti Runefriend, or some other group of the fledgeling Sartar Magical Union. Tosti was described for HW/HQ1 in the Sartar Rising campaign, as a LM scholar studying Kralori dragon magic from an outside perspective. As a Jonstown resident, he makes for a good patron for a scribe, also as quest-giver.

Otherwise, New Pavis with Argrath on the helm and numerous Wolf Pirates of western origin with their own sorcery or sorcerers are a good place to be, or to visit. Unfortunately, the Pavis books by Robin Laws aren't announced for this next year.

 

[Tindalos]

One useful aspect of sorcery is the hidden knowledge part. With spells like Geomancy, Reveal Rune, or Identify Otherworld Entity, you can present a wizard as someone who has knowledge of things others have no idea about.

Strange demon cursing their clan? They can commune with ancient documents and knowledge via their sorcery, naming exactly what it is and even its weaknesses.

30 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Your fledgeling sorcerer can also be brought into contact with the Free Philosophers, Tosti Runefriend, or some other group of the fledgeling Sartar Magical Union. Tosti was described for HW/HQ1 in the Sartar Rising campaign, as a LM scholar studying Kralori dragon magic from an outside perspective. As a Jonstown resident, he makes for a good patron for a scribe, also as quest-giver.

Otherwise, New Pavis with Argrath on the helm and numerous Wolf Pirates of western origin with their own sorcery or sorcerers are a good place to be, or to visit. Unfortunately, the Pavis books by Robin Laws aren't announced for this next year.

And of course you can have your fun making your own different routes to sorcery.

Star gazing Buserian is now said to be similar to Lhankor Mhy, and there was once a similar cult among the Grazelanders of a star-seer.

Maybe just as the Pure Horse have different names for Yelm, Ernalda, and Issaries, the few Pure Horse sorcerers who exist are followers of Denbitos (aka Lhankor Mhy), calling upon the heavens to reveal the future and communing with stellar spirits that the other Grazelanders barely know about.

 

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

really do not recommend sorcerers to new players or GMs as they are complicated.

Agreed. I made some pre-gen characters for my players to choose from in case they didn't want to create characters themselves (they had too many questions about Glorantha and couldn't figure out what to do), and one of them was Lhankor Mhy scribe that took the "spirit magic" path (no sorcery). That simplified things greatly.

Edited December 29, 2019 by lordabdul

[Austin]

14 hours ago, buckwheats said:

It could be both since we will start with the new Apple Lane adventures and transition to The Smoking Ruins afterwards, if they can be persuaded to it. I wanna give my players the possibility to choose to go wherever and follow whichever play-stile they want. So they could derail "my plans" pretty quickly, if they choose to leave Apple Lane to itself and head in the general direction of Magastas Pool.

1) Semi-munchkin tip: an adventurer's elective skill points (at the end of character creation) can be assigned to any skill; sorcery spells are a skill! This can help your player start with a variety of spells (especially since Lhankor Mhy's cult sorcery spells are pretty specific, and not always immediately useful).

2) I really do recommend starting as a Philosopher, because as a Scribe the adventurer only begins mastering the Truth Rune and the Command Technique, limiting their spell selection. Alternately, you could offer your player to drop starting POW a point per additional Rune or Technique mastered (just like an adventurer can drop their POW to get additional Rune points). I think a big draw to playing a sorcerer is "Ooh, look at the variety of magic I can learn!" and that boils down to getting a variety of Runes/Techniques.

3) The spell Geomancy could be really useful for several of those planned adventures—especially "Dragon of Thunder Hills" and "The Smoking Ruin" itself. I think a good strategy for introducing Lhankor Mhy sorcery to a new player is to look forward to how information-finding spells can be key to the adventurers' success, and then find ways to encourage the player to figure that out for themselves.

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Agreed. I made some pre-gen characters for my players to choose from in case they didn't want to create characters themselves (they had too many questions about Glorantha and couldn't figure out what to do), and one of them was Lhankor Mhy scribe that took the "spirit magic" path (no sorcery). That simplified things greatly.

While I’m learning the system, I basically tell the players ”If you want shamanism or sorcery, you’re responsible for knowing the rules at this point.”

Edited December 30, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Crel said:

Alternately, you could offer your player to drop starting POW a point per additional Rune or Technique mastered (just like an adventurer can drop their POW to get additional Rune points). I think a big draw to playing a sorcerer is "Ooh, look at the variety of magic I can learn!" and that boils down to getting a variety of Runes/Techniques.

Personally, I'd think GMs should allow reducing the 3 free Rune Points allocation, to be spent on Runes or Techniques (obviously, 1 is still required for initiate status)... 

Choosing other occupations, but as an LM initiate allows for a good range of skills (including lore and combat) using sorcery as a back up, rather than a focus, would work ok. 

[Austin]

11 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Personally, I'd think GMs should allow reducing the 3 free Rune Points allocation, to be spent on Runes or Techniques (obviously, 1 is still required for initiate status)...

That seems reasonable to me as well.

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

No, it won't, because for Control to work it must have been fought down to zero MP.

I really wish that RQG had replaced that mechanic, or introduced an alternative spirit magic spell to "strongly suggest" behavior in spirits.

Spirit Magic's Control - yes.

Rune Magic Command and sorcery's Dominate - no.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Spirit Magic's Control - yes.

Rune Magic Command and sorcery's Dominate - no.

These are rarer than a cursory look at the rules may lead you to assume.

Command (Species) has the caveat that the cult defines which species are available. Yelmalio offers fire elementals (remind me: which deity lost their fire power?), Orlanth offers air elementals, etc.

So, in all likelihood you won't be able to access a Command (that spirit that troubles you right now) spell.

 

Sorcery's Dominate requires that you have mastered the Spirit Form Rune. (Any technique can infer Command, which still will be the most common).

Which is a little irksome, really. Why does every effective sorcerer have to become an ersatz-shaman by other means, a misapplied shaman? (Or have one such at his beckon?)

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sorcery's Dominate requires that you have mastered the Spirit Form Rune. (Any technique can infer Command, which still will be the most common).

Which is a little irksome, really. Why does every effective sorcerer have to become an ersatz-shaman by other means, a misapplied shaman? (Or have one such at his beckon?)

It is interesting that it's the foundational rune of Malkioni sorcery, along with Command being the technique known with everyone.

Most Malkioni sorcerers will have no reason not to know at least one Dominate (discorporate spirit), even if they don't keep it memorized.

[Scotty]

Clarification on the Magic Rune.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Scotty
page 391 updated too

[Joerg]

16 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

It is interesting that it's the foundational rune of Malkioni sorcery, along with Command being the technique known with everyone.

Most Malkioni sorcerers will have no reason not to know at least one Dominate (discorporate spirit), even if they don't keep it memorized.

I wouldn't say the foundational rune - that would be Magic - but one of the essentials.

 

Maybe the art in creating adequate sorcery is to look at a cultural perspective of the sorcerers, and to write their repertoire of commonly used spells with that in mind.

Pre-Dawn Age Seshnela would churn out sorcerers that have power over the Beast Rune and the Spirit Rune, as those were what their opponents were using against them. They would have invested in the Life/Death pair of runes as the conflict brought either of these to the forefront.

They would have invested in an Element rune, and chosen that carefully to cover the two lesser aspects of that rune, too.

So our poor Dawn Age Seshnegi wizard needs Magic, Spirit and/or Beast, Life/Death, and an Element. At least four runes, and lets say at least two techniques. At minimum INT 17 or 18, this is possible with the usual character creation cheats (like making Fire your highest rune), but then the spells must be tailored so that they don't demand too many additional runes. (In Malkioni context, a very high Man Rune should certainly boost the INT of a character as much as the element of Fire. At least the character's pre-disposition for sorcery.)

But lets assume that there is a bunch of wartime spells against the Pendali have been written.

There are a few existing spells that are possible with this array - Spirit Warding, Boon of Kargan Tor, Ward Against Damage, Dampen Damage (to be cast on enemy champions), Accelerate Healing, Dominate (Elemental). All general magic rune spells.

Mend Flesh requires an additional Harmony rune. If you have a sorcerous healer, she will be a very specialized one-trick pony, but there will be an Arroyan Grimoire (or at least a collection of spells available to sorcerous healers beyond Mend Flesh).

Neutralize Rune (Spirit, Beast) to counter any spells the Pendali may have in that regard. Death, too, while we're at it.

Dominate Lion? I doubt it, really. There is no way that the Seshnegi sorcerers wrestled control over the lion companions of the Pendali and then sicced them onto their kin and former masters. Rather something that thwarts lions. "Confound Lion" - basically a re-invented befuddle specific to these animals, hence with a way better chance to take effect than Dominate. Perhaps with a rune added to the mix to indicate the sense that is confounded - smell most likely, using the runes of Beast and Air, and which technique(s)? Either Dispel or Summon may work. Separate is under-used, so maybe a chance for this?

Frighten Lion. This may work with just Summon and Beast, or it may add Darkness. Again, a rather specific spell, aiming at the (very problematic) beast companions of the foes of Frowal and Neleoswal. Due to it being so specific, the resistance may use a better rate than Dominate. And yet, little more than a re-invented Demoralize, the main difference being that there is no POW vs. POW contest involved, but that a minimum intensity is required based on the quality of the opponent.

Calm Horse. If you are riding into combat against lions, this is a good buff to have. Each intensity reduces the chance of the horse panicking by 10%. Rune is Beast, Technique could  be Command or Dispel. (Frighten Horse comes into play when the Pendali bring in their Enerali allies.)

Harm (Creature) - runes Beast (or other target), Death, possibly an element that defines the area of attack (Air: choking, Water: bloodflow slowed, Earth: bones or teeth prone to breaking, Fire/Darkness - overheating or underheating the body). Not a direct kill, but a slow curse requiring CON rolls by the recipient. Possibly an active spell, requiring line of sight and a staff pointed, or similar. Techniques likely Summon or Command, or both.

Fortify Soldier(s). Definitely the Man Rune, perhaps adding the caste Rune Death, depending on the kind of fortification possibly another rune (Earth for CON), and then a technique. Affecting morale and/or Constitution. Possibly to be cast on a squad-sized group of soldiers.

This is possibly a staple of Brithini military magic, with other spells available to bless other castes. Only works on the proper caste. (Might include Men-of-All in training if they have mastered their Soldier caste requirement.)

What are the runes associated with the Malkioni Castes (other than Man)?

Soldiers have Man and Death, wizards have Man and Magic. This leaves the rulers/administrators and the workers. Mastery for the talar caste is not an option (yet), but may very well become one when Malkioni sorcery is explored. A rune not taught to non-zzaburi, so that the decision-makers cannot be targeted by hostile sorcery. (Doesn't help one bit against Vadeli, of course). Alternertively Harmony, which also covers Communication/Trade under RQG rules. But what for the dronar caste that has workers not just as working the Earth but also as craftspeople and construction workers?

 

We know that the Brithini have access to a Resurrection spell ritual. The Seshnegi don't seem to use it, but then it is a costly magic, leaving the sorcerers who perform it weakened (see the Nidan uprising following the Vadeli suicide in Kachisti captivity). But yes, it will be hogging Magic Points like crazy, even if those sorcerers are willing to Tap something to fill up again.

I suspect that the Brithini (and by extension Malkioni) Resurrection ritual uses the Tap technique, and it certainly has a Summon element, possibly also a Combine. The runes involved certainly include Death and/or Fertility/Life, Man, and Spirit. Let's toss in Harmony and Magic? But then, this has been described as a basic ritual known to all the Kachisti sorcerers, so maybe not that difficult to master. Overburden it with demands on technique to drive up the MP cost to levels where only Tapping has a reasonable chance of providing enough magical power.

I was toying with the idea that this spell taps the POW of the resurrected spirit a bit. Or that another life has to be drained for the recipient to regain his.

[Tindalos]

13 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I wouldn't say the foundational rune - that would be Magic - but one of the essentials.

Well, I was just going off 389, where wizards learn it as part of their apprenticeship.

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

But lets assume that there is a bunch of wartime spells against the Pendali have been written.

This probably is related to the Furlandan School, which was mentioned as useful against the Pendali (although the Barmalani combat magic would also be important.)

The Furlandans have been noted as having the sample spells of: Resist [type of] spirit, Force spirit out of body, Identify spirit, Banish spirit, Curse spirit-talker, and Overcome spirit curse.

Some of these are in RQ:G. Identify Spirit is Identify Otherworld Entity, Overcome Spirit Curse may be Neutralize Spirit Magic (The curse description suggests it was mainly used against spells like Befuddle, Demoralize, or Dullblade), and Resist [type of] spirit becomes the more generic Spirit Warding. Force spirit out of body and banish spirit don't appear to have any easy connections, unless they're a specific use of Dominate (discorporate spirit) and ordering it to cease any and all supernatural activity and return forthwith to its place of origin or to the nearest convenient parallel dimension.

[Richard S.]

On 12/26/2019 at 8:32 PM, Richard S. said:

This makes me wonder if Grimoires will be handled as books of inscriptions. It'd be a nice way to handle it imo, plus it would kinda tie into HQG's interpretation of sorcery as hyper specific spells, since once an inscription's been made you can't change the parameters on the fly.

After rereading the sorcery rules last night, I realize I misread how inscriptions work. I was interpreting it that the Power sacrificed was the only manipulation that could be applied to a spell. Rather, it seems like you can still apply manipulations to an inscribed spell, you just don't have to apply the levels you sacrificed permanent Power for.

For example, let's say I know Finger of Fire and have 12 points of Free INT. Normally I can only apply up to 12 levels of manipulation, but I make an inscription of it and sacrifice 3 POW to bring its base strength up to 4 (1+3). Now whenever I cast it using the inscription, it already has 3 levels of manipulation applied to it for free, so I can still use all 12 points of Free INT to take the total manipulations up to 15.

What I'm unclear about now is whether you have to pay MP for these "pre-manipulations". It says you get those levels of manipulation free, so I'm inclined to think no, but considering how it appears that sorcery is being retconned already from what's in the RAW (@Magic Rune), I'm no longer certain. If you don't have to pay the MP for the pre-manipulation, then that's fantastic for sorcerers, saving both valuable time and energy.