Cultural weapon skills are a bit vague?

[Wookie]

Hi

Our GM is running a RQ:AiG game and we're enjoying it, but we had a little trouble with character creation.

When talking about weapon skills, the 1H swords are broken out into easily-identifiable individual weapons but the character sheet in the back lists the other weapon skills as 1H Axe, 1H Spear, Dagger, etc - it's not clear from this that these are category skills requiring a specific subchoice. The Cultural Skills section has the same issue - there is a small note on p60 about it but given that some of the weapons listed in the Cultural Weapons fall under multiple broad categories, it's not really very clear.

Examples:          Dagger is both a category and a specific skill
                            Battle Axe falls under both 1H Axe and 2H Axe
                            Javelin is a category, a thrown weapon and a stabbing weapon
                            Short Spear is a 1H Spear, a 2H Spear and a thrown weapon
                            Throwing Dagger is a thrown weapon and a stabbing weapon

The example characters in the book are also not clear about which specific skill they use with these weapons (exception: Harmast Baranthos' Son has Javelin 1H and Javelin thrown, but also has Battle Axe and Dagger, which are not specific) so we had to guess and rely on a GM call on what was meant

Would you please clarify the specific weapons meant in the Cultural Skills section?

And would you please publish a new version of the character sheet, modified so that category skills are clearly identified and it is obvious to newbies that these skills involve making an extra choice?
                           

[Arcadiagt5]

I am the GM for this game and it has been a problem for us. One that isn't helped by character sheets and online character generators treating "1H Axe" as an actual skill. 

[GAZZA]

Yeah, I hear ya guys. What I did in my game was allow the player to pick any 1H Axe as their actual skill; if they picked Battle Axe they'd need to write it in as "1H Battle Axe" since "2H Battle Axe" is a separate skill. Did the same for 1H Spear (with the same caveat applied to Short Spear).

I'm not overly convinced that RQG was consistent here; on the one hand dispensing with separate Attack/Parry skills because "nobody ever trains in just Attack" (despite the fact that the rules already knew this; in RQ3, for example, you explicitly trained Attack and Parry simultaneously, or Weapon Attack and Shield Parry if you preferred - it was only experience checks that would result in them getting out of sync) thereby reducing the number of skills, but then deciding that using a short spear 2H and a long spear 2H were so fundamentally different that you only got 1/2 your percentage. Honestly I am not by any means convinced that not just training in categories of weapons (1H Axe for all axes you use one handed, 2H Mace for all maces you use two handed, and so on) is a terrible simplification that destroys the integrity of the simulation... but I did promise my players we'd play for at least a while without any signficant house rules, so I had to come up with something.

[PhilHibbs]

I think it's supposed to be flexible. Go with what you think is reasonable. I know that some people are not happy with that approach in RQG, but that's what it is. Jeff is very much a "sure, why not" GM so try to read the rules it in that mindset.

[Mugen]

1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

(...) "nobody ever trains in just Attack" (snip)

The same can be said for weapons that can be used with one or two hands. Nobody ever trains in just using a katana with one hand.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Mugen

[GAZZA]

2 minutes ago, Mugen said:

The same can be said for weapons that can be used with one or two hands. Nobody ever only trains in using a katana with one hand.

Well, you get half your percentage in the off hand. And few people are truly ambidextrous. So I think that's already covered.

[Mugen]

9 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Well, you get half your percentage in the off hand. And few people are truly ambidextrous. So I think that's already covered.

Well, I was not thinking of dual wielding here, but rather using one katana with one or two hands. Just like a bastard sword.

Edit: also, when dual wielding, you're not supposed to use the half skill rule, which is meant for people who use a weapon in the wrong hand but are not using the other one to attack (for instance, when you lost your right arm).

Edited May 5, 2020 by Mugen

[GAZZA]

Ah right. Yeah, it's not really clear how one is supposed to do that with weapons that can be used either one or two handed; the most generous interpretation would suggest if you have (say) 60% in Battle Axe then you have 30% in all other axes (1H or 2H) as Battle Axe is both.

I would say that interpretation is wrong, but RAW could certainly be read that way.

[Mugen]

4 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Ah right. Yeah, it's not really clear how one is supposed to do that with weapons that can be used either one or two handed; the most generous interpretation would suggest if you have (say) 60% in Battle Axe then you have 30% in all other axes (1H or 2H) as Battle Axe is both.

I would say that interpretation is wrong, but RAW could certainly be read that way.

But in the case of the katana, you constantly switch from using 2 hands to 1 hand, because it either gives you more strength, or a better reach. And using one form or the other is part of the training.

I mention the katana because it's the only weapon I have (very little) experience with, but I think the same is true for every weapon that is not too heavy to be used with only one hand.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Mugen

[Brootse]

In my FrankenQuest all the weapons in the same class, eg. 1H swords, use the same skill. And the weapon classes use the same rules as related languages, ie. you get half of your skill to all other classes. Melee weapon skills raise melee skills, and missile weapon skills raise missile weapon skills. I find this more realistic, and also at the end of the day it makes surprisingly little difference, since most characters keep on using the same weapons they started with.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Brootse

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

In my FrankenQuest all the weapons in the same class, eg. 1H swords, use the same skill.

I do the same.

[Mugen]

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

In my FrankenQuest all the weapons in the same class, eg. 1H swords, use the same skill. And the weapon classes use the same rules as related languages, ie. you get half of your skill to all other classes. Melee weapon skills raise melee skills, and missile weapon skills raise missile weapon skills. I find this more realistic, and also at the end of the day it makes surprisingly little difference, since most characters keep on using the same weapons they started with.

I do something similar. I have one Melee skill and one Missile skill, and each individual weapon skill (one per weapon class) is treated as a bonus to one of those skills.

So, a character might have Melee 35%, 1H Sword +35% and 1H Axe +15%. He'll fight with 70% with a broadsword, 50% with axe, and 35% with any other weapon.

I also apply the same logic for all other skills, using skill categories as broad skills. So, You might have Communication 25%, Bargain +15% and Orate +10%, for instance. There are of course skills that need training before you can use them, especially under Knowledge.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Ah right. Yeah, it's not really clear how one is supposed to do that with weapons that can be used either one or two handed; the most generous interpretation would suggest if you have (say) 60% in Battle Axe then you have 30% in all other axes (1H or 2H) as Battle Axe is both.

Battle Axe is a little confusing. I think you are supposed to have a specific skill in either 1H or 2H, but any background or cult that just says "Battle Axe" can either be interpreted as applying to both or as pick-one-or-the-other.

[Dragon]

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

So, a character might have Melee 35%, 1H Sword +35% and 1H Axe +15%. He'll fight with 70% with a broadsword, 50% with axe, and 35% with any other weapon.

An interesting concept. The question I have is which improves by experience? If my character uses a Kris and hits with a 65, do I check the experience box in Melee or 1H Sword or both? If my character hits with a 05, do I roll experience in Melee or 1H Sword or both? I am thinking that you may apportion the Melee experience check based on Melee for 1-35 and then 1H Sword for 36-70.

By the end of the adventure, you should have checks in both. That would double the speed at which you gain Rune Lord qualifying combined skills (combined meaning that Humakt's requirement for 90% Sword would be the sum of Melee and 1H Sword). Actually that would vastly more than double the rate at which you increase, because presumably you roll your chance of improving in Melee by needing to roll over 35 (with bonus) and your chance of improving 1H Sword by needing to roll over 35 (with bonus) for a total of 2d6 if both succeed. Rather than RAW one chance to roll over 70 for 1d6

That is not necessarily a bad thing. Your survival in combat will certainly improve quickly. But I think that would make non-combat skills suffer in comparison, and tend to make your players choose weapon focused characters rather than e.g. Ernalda, Lhankor Mhy, or Issaries. Unless, you do something similar with other skills. Like have a Knowledge skill that improves separately and have a bonus skill level for e.g. Evaluate, First Aid, Farm, or Herd. But then your improvement due to a successful Orate may improve Communicate (the skill, not category bonus) which would lift a whole bunch of skills e.g. Act, Disguise, and Intrigue . But I am certain you put a lot more thought into that than I have in 5 minutes of typing. I will ponder that some more.

Note: Lhankor Mhy already is a bit slow to gain Rune Level because they cannot gain experience in the two Lores needed for God-Talker or Priest. They need training.

[Brootse]

2 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Note: Lhankor Mhy already is a bit slow to gain Rune Level because they cannot gain experience in the two Lores needed for God-Talker or Priest. They need training.

Yeah, compared to older editions, RQG really punishes people trying to learn new knowledge skills. At least until the new rules for books, scrolls and songs are published. Basically you can read a text or something, and gain a skill increase. But how common these texts are, and what do they cost are still a mystery.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

10 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Yeah, compared to older editions, RQG really punishes people trying to learn new knowledge skills

Yes.  Our GM noticed, and occasionally just hands out increases based on experiences.  "You visited an ancient Ernalda temple, everybody gets +5% Ernalda Lore".

Otherwise it's pretty hopeless for scholars.

[Dragon]

In my game, a Read/Write check during an adventure is as simple as after they learn what mission, the Lhankor Mhy does some research in the library to find out a few useful bits to aid the mission. The ancient scrolls that were useful could be a variety of languages. Most Heortling and Tradetalk though. During the adventure, reading a warning or clue can result in a check. But even one R/W qualifies the Lhankor Mhy, so that skill will not be the gatekeeper to God-Talker. The second Lore will be.

[Mugen]

2 minutes ago, Dragon said:

An interesting concept. The question I have is which improves by experience? If my character uses a Kris and hits with a 65, do I check the experience box in Melee or 1H Sword or both? If my character hits with a 05, do I roll experience in Melee or 1H Sword or both? I am thinking that you may apportion the Melee experience check based on Melee for 1-35 and then 1H Sword for 36-70.

(...)

But I am certain you put a lot more thought into that than I have in 5 minutes of typing. I will ponder that some more.

That's a very good question, and one I have no good answer for. Experience is the kind of system you need to test in the long run, and it's something I never managed to do.

Obviously, applying RQ experience rolls don't work, and doubling the improvement rate is not a good idea.

Perhaps make the roll using the sum of your skill and specialty, then divide the experience gain between the two. Round up for specialty and down for skill, or vice-versa. Of course, it means you'll gain experience faster if you use a new weapon or skill, but I like the idea that experiencing new ideas is the best way to gain experience. Not sure how to treat the case when a skill was used with different sub-skills. Either only keep the best result, or just +1. I would only apply modifications to skills after all the rolls are made, to avoid making priority between two experience checks a problem.

For instance, if the character in my example fought with a sword and an axe, he would make 2 experience rolls, trying to roll over 70 and 50.

His first roll is 72. He rolls 3 on his d6, which means his Sword is now 37%, and he has a potential +1 for his Melee.

He then rolls 65, and 6 on his d6. His Axe is now 18. Depending on the rule, his Melee is either going to increase by 3 (if we keep the best increase between 3/2 round down or 6/2), or 2 (if we only add +1 per experience roll after the first).

[Dragon]

16 minutes ago, Mugen said:

That's a very good question, and one I have no good answer for. Experience is the kind of system you need to test in the long run, and it's something I never managed to do.

Obviously, applying RQ experience rolls don't work, and doubling the improvement rate is not a good idea.

Perhaps make the roll using the sum of your skill and specialty, then divide the experience gain between the two. Round up for specialty and down for skill, or vice-versa. Of course, it means you'll gain experience faster if you use a new weapon or skill, but I like the idea that experiencing new ideas is the best way to gain experience. Not sure how to treat the case when a skill was used with different sub-skills. Either only keep the best result, or just +1. I would only apply modifications to skills after all the rolls are made, to avoid making priority between two experience checks a problem.

For instance, if the character in my example fought with a sword and an axe, he would make 2 experience rolls, trying to roll over 70 and 50.

His first roll is 72. He rolls 3 on his d6, which means his Sword is now 37%, and he has a potential +1 for his Melee.

He then rolls 65, and 6 on his d6. His Axe is now 18. Depending on the rule, his Melee is either going to increase by 3 (if we keep the best increase between 3/2 round down or 6/2), or 2 (if we only add +1 per experience roll after the first).

That makes some good sense.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Dragon said:

Note: Lhankor Mhy already is a bit slow to gain Rune Level because they cannot gain experience in the two Lores needed for God-Talker or Priest. They need training.

LMs need access to books that teach such lore. Happily they are likely to enter an environment where such books may be found. Getting the authorization to copy such a book may be a little of a struggle, but usually the library will allow access if it earns a new copy of that book. And if the copyist adds an index or cross references, the book may become better than the original.

 

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

Yeah, compared to older editions, RQG really punishes people trying to learn new knowledge skills. At least until the new rules for books, scrolls and songs are published. Basically you can read a text or something, and gain a skill increase. But how common these texts are, and what do they cost are still a mystery.

Jeff posted a preview which I would expect to go into the Glorantha starter set which focuses on Jonstown, a city famous for a library full of books and scrolls.

From personal experience, I can attest that a week slaving over a book on thermodynamics increased my performance on the admission test for the physical chemistry lab course from "failed by just a little" to "top of the class" when I needed the success (before I participated on the basis of "would be nice to have, but not yet necessary", with hardly any preparation other than regular attendance to the lectures). A double digit increase after reading a concise treatise of a skill level above your own will give you that. (That, and the experience that Thermodynamics would provide about 60% of the points you can make, with 50% being the pass/fail mark.) Not multiple choice, BTW.

[soltakss]

10 hours ago, Wookie said:

When talking about weapon skills, the 1H swords are broken out into easily-identifiable individual weapons but the character sheet in the back lists the other weapon skills as 1H Axe, 1H Spear, Dagger, etc - it's not clear from this that these are category skills requiring a specific subchoice. The Cultural Skills section has the same issue - there is a small note on p60 about it but given that some of the weapons listed in the Cultural Weapons fall under multiple broad categories, it's not really very clear.

It is confusing and is meant to be flexible, but isn't really.

First, a bit of history. RQ2 had single skills for every weapon, so 1H Bastard Sword was different to 1H Broadsword and 2H Bastard Sword. RQ3 came along with weapon categories, so 1H Sword, 2H Sword and so on, which was better in some ways but confusing in others, as a Character Sheet could have a 1H Bastard Sword and 1H Broadsword, which used the same skill but were written down on different lines. RQG cleverly combines the best of RQ2 with the best of RQ3 and then adds some better things on top. However, it doesn't do it very well, so it keeps Weapon categories and then ignores them.

What I would do is use the weapon categories. So, have a skill for 1H Sword, 2H Sword, 1H Axe, 2H Axe and so on. That way you just have the one skill to worry about and if you use a Battle Axe you can choose whether to use it 1 Handed or 2 Handed and use the appropriate skill.

10 hours ago, Wookie said:

Dagger is both a category and a specific skill
                            Battle Axe falls under both 1H Axe and 2H Axe
                            Javelin is a category, a thrown weapon and a stabbing weapon
                            Short Spear is a 1H Spear, a 2H Spear and a thrown weapon
                            Throwing Dagger is a thrown weapon and a stabbing weapon

These are mixing several things up, in my opinion.

Battle Axe being in 1H or 2H is fine for me, as it can be used both ways. if you are not very strong you can use it 2H, if you lose an arm you can use it 1H.

Javelin being in two categories satisfies purists who say "Ah, well, did you know that the Javelin could be thrown or could be used in the same way as a spear". If you used categories as mentioned earlier, javelin, the object, can be used as a Thrown Spear or 1H Spear, so you can pick it up, stab a couple of people and then throw it at the chappie who is running away, using your 1H Spear and Thrown Spear skills.

Short spear can be used 1H or 2H, see Battle axe, it can also be thrown at someone, see Javelin. again it helps to separate objects and skill categories. I could use my short Spear 2 handed, have an arm knocked out, so switch to 1H and then throw it at an enemy.

Same with Throwing Dagger, if I pick up a dagger to throw at someone and get jumped by an enemy, I can use it to stick them with the pointy end and then throw it at someone else, using dagger and Thrown Dagger.

However, my biggest bugbear with Cultural Weapons is they are rubbish. For example. Sartarites get the following skills:

Dagger +10%
Battle Axe +10%
1H Spear +10%
Broadsword +15%
Composite Bow +10% or Sling +10%
Javelin +10%
Medium Shield +15%
Large Shield +10%

This adds up to 90

Dance +5% 
Sing +10% 
Customs (Heortling) (25) 
Farm +20% 
Herd +10% 
Spirit Combat +15%
Ride (any) +5% 

This also adds up to 90.

Speak Own Language (Heortling) (50) 
Speak Other Language (Tradetalk) +10%
 

So, Sartarite non-language skills are split equally between weapons and non-weapons.

Also, look at the Cultural Weapons again, as a Sartarite I carry around a Dagger, Battle Axe, Short Spear, Broadsword, Composite Bow/sling and two shields, assuming that Short Spear can be used as a Javelin. Frankly, that is ridiculous.

I would much rather have Primary Weapon, Secondary Weapon, Dagger, Shield and then perhaps Primary Missile weapon and secondary Missile Weapon, even that is a bit much. Maybe better just to have Cultural Melee Weapon, Dagger, Shield and Cultural Missile Weapon.

 

[Brootse]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Jeff posted a preview which I would expect to go into the Glorantha starter set which focuses on Jonstown, a city famous for a library full of books and scroll

Is there any info where and when those book rules will be published?

[g33k]

9 hours ago, Mugen said:

I do something similar. I have one Melee skill and one Missile skill, and each individual weapon skill (one per weapon class) is treated as a bonus to one of those skills.

So, a character might have Melee 35%, 1H Sword +35% and 1H Axe +15%. He'll fight with 70% with a broadsword, 50% with axe, and 35% with any other weapon.

I also apply the same logic for all other skills, using skill categories as broad skills. So, You might have Communication 25%, Bargain +15% and Orate +10%, for instance. There are of course skills that need training before you can use them, especially under Knowledge.

Hmm.  This is interesting (and has some merit, I think).  Seems related to the Skill Tree of Ringworld RPG, but ... a bit simpler?

How do you handle skill-checks and/or training?  When/how does someone get to improve their "melee 35%" vs. "1H Axe 15% " for example; or improve "Communication 25%" vs "Orate 10%"?

[Shiningbrow]

In reading this thread, I thought of, what I consider, to be a reasonable compromise... A 1.5H weapon skill...

1H sword for short swords and rapiers.

2H sword for greatswords (even if very rare in.Glorantha/bronze age)

And 1.5H for those that can switch easily between both.

 

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

Also, look at the Cultural Weapons again, as a Sartarite I carry around a Dagger, Battle Axe, Short Spear, Broadsword, Composite Bow/sling and two shields, assuming that Short Spear can be used as a Javelin. Frankly, that is ridiculous.

I would much rather have Primary Weapon, Secondary Weapon, Dagger, Shield and then perhaps Primary Missile weapon and secondary Missile Weapon, even that is a bit much. Maybe better just to have Cultural Melee Weapon, Dagger, Shield and Cultural Missile Weapon.

Agreed.

Personally, I'd make it:- 

Dagger

Spear

Sword/axe/mace (club)

Javelin/sling/bow

1 Shield

So, similar, but slightly different. Dagger, Spear (probably as Secondary Melee), Primary melee, Primary Missile, Shield. 

[Mugen]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

Hmm.  This is interesting (and has some merit, I think).  Seems related to the Skill Tree of Ringworld RPG, but ... a bit simpler?

How do you handle skill-checks and/or training?  When/how does someone get to improve their "melee 35%" vs. "1H Axe 15% " for example; or improve "Communication 25%" vs "Orate 10%"?

Yes, or RD100 traits made a little more complicated.

As for your question, see my answer to Dragon above.