Cultural weapon skills are a bit vague?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 5/5/2020 at 11:39 AM, Brootse said:

In my FrankenQuest all the weapons in the same class, eg. 1H swords, use the same skill. And the weapon classes use the same rules as related languages, ie. you get half of your skill to all other classes. Melee weapon skills raise melee skills, and missile weapon skills raise missile weapon skills. I find this more realistic, and also at the end of the day it makes surprisingly little difference, since most characters keep on using the same weapons they started with.

Using a Gladius is like using a Bastard Sword?

[Brootse]

15 minutes ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Using a Gladius is like using a Bastard Sword?

If this is only one skill "Carpentry: Working wood to make buildings, boats, bridges, and furniture, including the ability to decorate wood." why shouldn't all one handed swords be one skill too?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 5/5/2020 at 7:27 PM, soltakss said:

 

Also, look at the Cultural Weapons again, as a Sartarite I carry around a Dagger, Battle Axe, Short Spear, Broadsword, Composite Bow/sling and two shields, assuming that Short Spear can be used as a Javelin. Frankly, that is ridiculous.

 

 

I have some skill with a cricket bat, but I don't carry one around with me all the time.

Familiar doesn't mean you have to use it.

I also think you are mistaking the word 'or' in English for the word 'and'. You don't get +10% in both bow and sling, do you? Your tribe uses one or the other as a weapon. This could be made clearer though.

I also think this should be true with shields, your tribe would use one or the other. 

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

22 minutes ago, Brootse said:

If this is only one skill "Carpentry: Working wood to make buildings, boats, bridges, and furniture, including the ability to decorate wood." why shouldn't all one handed swords be one skill too?

That is one terrible skill description! :S 😮

Too broad, the are loads of ways round it though, many of which aren't that taxing.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Orlanthatemyhamster

[Blindhamster]

isn't it just a case that battle axe is a specific skill. you should add it as it's own row, and really its the 1h axe, 2h axe, 1h spear and 2h spear skills which are incorrect on the character sheet, as those arent weapons, they're categories.

 

99% sure this is the case, in skills it clearly states each weapon is its own skill, all things that give bonuses call out specific weapons or tell you to choose from a type.

Under the weapon rules it states that the category is used so you know you use half your best skill with a weapon when using any other weapon of the same category that you dont have higher % in.

seems pretty clear and simple to me.

 

But would be nice to get the character sheet fixed to perhaps have small axe (instead of 1h axe), great axe (instead of 2h axe), short spear (instead of 1h spear) and long spear (instead of 2h spear)

Edited May 6, 2020 by Blindhamster

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

I also think you are mistaking the word 'or' in English for the word 'and'. You don't get +10% in both bow and sling, do you? Your tribe uses one or the other as a weapon. This could be made clearer though.

No, that's why I put Composite Bow/sling, to indicate one or the other. It is a short form, rather than having two similar lists.

1 hour ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

I also think this should be true with shields, your tribe would use one or the other. 

They should, but not according to the rules, both shields are cultural weapons.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

No, that's why I put Composite Bow/sling, to indicate one or the other. It is a short form, rather than having two similar lists.

They should, but not according to the rules, both shields are cultural weapons.

Sorry about that, you came across as a non-native to me for some reason in that post.

Once again, my apologies.

 Isn't it just a little application of common sense? Yes it could be clearer, yes people could apply a bit o common.
 

[aries04]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

isn't it just a case that battle axe is a specific skill. you should add it as it's own row, and really its the 1h axe, 2h axe, 1h spear and 2h spear skills which are incorrect on the character sheet, as those arent weapons, they're categories.

 

99% sure this is the case, in skills it clearly states each weapon is its own skill, all things that give bonuses call out specific weapons or tell you to choose from a type.

Under the weapon rules it states that the category is used so you know you use half your best skill with a weapon when using any other weapon of the same category that you dont have higher % in.

seems pretty clear and simple to me.

 

But would be nice to get the character sheet fixed to perhaps have small axe (instead of 1h axe), great axe (instead of 2h axe), short spear (instead of 1h spear) and long spear (instead of 2h spear)

I can see how this is confusing though. As a new player, and having played with some power gamers in the past, if I had sufficient strength, I’d just choose Battle Axe (the 1H option) so my base skill was 10, then I could 2H if I wanted with the higher skill or use any of the weapons of the two categories covering battle axe at half my skill. If I read that right, it seems battle axe is a good choice for a lot of options with one skill. 
 

It appears dagger got it right, if you’re skilled with a parrying dagger, it makes sense that you may not be as good at striking or throwing with a dagger, so the half penalty for in category use. 

[Blindhamster]

I'm actually still reading through the rules for the first time myself. So it could be i have it wrong.

Maybe 1h Axe really is the skill. I suppose we won't know someone from Chaosium confirming one way or another.

[Richard S.]

I think the biggest problem with RQG is shown in this thread. Supposedly, it's a game about heroes going off and doing heroic things, yet it's bogged down by things like these overly specific and sometimes unclear weapon skills that are a holdover from its early years. Perhaps in real life there is so much of a difference between swinging two types of one-handed axes, I wouldn't know, but in game it's incredibly frustrating that my Humakti who's become a renowned master of swordplay can't even swing an axe reliably without seasons worth of work. In fact, I'd say that for a game about heroes the whole skill list is bloated.

[aries04]

It is a small, very fixable issue in a large book of cool stuff. Not really a sticking point, more of a “hey look at that.”

[Blindhamster]

Would be good to understand the intent honestly.

 

Personally I dont mind the idea that weapons skills would be specific with there being a tangential benefit in that you can use similar weapons, just not as well.

 

Equally I'd be totally fine if you used categories for skills rather than specific weapons.

 

Would just like to know what the creators feel it should be.

[GAZZA]

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I think the biggest problem with RQG is shown in this thread. Supposedly, it's a game about heroes going off and doing heroic things, yet it's bogged down by things like these overly specific and sometimes unclear weapon skills that are a holdover from its early years. Perhaps in real life there is so much of a difference between swinging two types of one-handed axes, I wouldn't know, but in game it's incredibly frustrating that my Humakti who's become a renowned master of swordplay can't even swing an axe reliably without seasons worth of work. In fact, I'd say that for a game about heroes the whole skill list is bloated.

Don't forget that you can't swing a cat in any Gloranthan fiction/setting material without hitting a Hero Quest... and we've been waiting for RQ Hero Quest rules for literally decades.

[Arcadiagt5]

4 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Don't forget that you can't swing a cat in any Gloranthan fiction/setting material without hitting a Hero Quest... and we've been waiting for RQ Hero Quest rules for literally decades.

True...

Part of the frustration that Wookie and I are having is that I'm relatively new to GMing RuneQuest, started with this edition, and keep finding little bits and pieces that are really important... but are squirrelled away in odd spots that aren't immediately obvious. 

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Don't forget that you can't swing a cat in any Gloranthan fiction/setting material without hitting a Hero Quest

Attack or parry?

[Arcadiagt5]

6 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Attack or parry?

Wouldn''t the HeroQuest dodge out of the way? I mean it's not necessarily even in the same plane of existence...

[Scotty]

On 5/5/2020 at 8:40 AM, Wookie said:

When talking about weapon skills, the 1H swords are broken out into easily-identifiable individual weapons but the character sheet in the back lists the other weapon skills as 1H Axe, 1H Spear, Dagger, etc - it's not clear from this that these are category skills requiring a specific subchoice. The Cultural Skills section has the same issue - there is a small note on p60 about it but given that some of the weapons listed in the Cultural Weapons fall under multiple broad categories, it's not really very clear

Have you looked at this:

 

[Blindhamster]

so yeah, exactly how i read it initially.

Choose specific weapons, character sheet would have been better to have been something like 1H Axe (             ) So you can fill in the choice you made etc.
 

[Darius West]

On 5/5/2020 at 5:40 PM, Wookie said:

 

 Dagger is both a category and a specific skill
 Battle Axe falls under both 1H Axe and 2H Axe
 Javelin is a category, a thrown weapon and a stabbing weapon
 Short Spear is a 1H Spear, a 2H Spear and a thrown weapon
 Throwing Dagger is a thrown weapon and a stabbing weapon                           

A category is a class of weapon, where if you have a skill in a weapon in the same category you start with 1/2 skill in all weapons in the category based on yuor best weapon skill in the category.

(1) The Dagger issue.  The dagger category applies to ordinary daggers, parrying daggers, throwing daggers when used in hand-to-hand fighting, and sickles.  Yes, dagger can be a skill, like sickle can be a skill, and the better of these skills will provide you with 1/2 skill in other weapons in that category.  

(2) Battle Axe can be used 1 or 2 handed.  These are different fighting methods requiring different strength and dexterity, and should be treated as separate skills despite using the same weapon.  

(3) Javelin is a category, sharing it with darts and short spears  for purposes of throwing.  For purposes of hand to hand fighting, the category becomes short spear.  Javelins are primarily for throwing, but can be used as short spears for hand to hand fighting.

(4) A short spear can be used in 1 or 2 hands, and these are different skills, as is throwing a short spear.

(5) A Throwing Dagger is primarily a thrown weapon and performs as a second rate hand to hand weapon.  This seems accurate.  While it is a category, and would probably share that category with shuriken, it is presently on its own. 

(Clarification) While it may seem odd that having a skill in short spear (for example) and can use it 1 handed, that doesn't mean you can automatically throw it like a Javelin or use it 2 handed.  Note however that 2 handed use of a short spear has a higher Base %  on skill (15% as compared to 5% for 1 handed).

(House Rule) If you want, you could play that if you have a skill in short spear, you have a primary use skill, but it is treated as 1/2 skill in the other non-category uses.  While not within the rules, there is no reason not to if the GM is feeling generous.

[Mugen]

17 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

That is one terrible skill description! :S 😮

Too broad, the are loads of ways round it though, many of which aren't that taxing.

Especially when you think there's a whip skill somewhere whose only use is to make noise with your whip, not attacking with it.

[Joerg]

52 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Especially when you think there's a whip skill somewhere whose only use is to make noise with your whip, not attacking with it.

unless you're an NPC... Rattling Wind... Whispering Ruins...

[Wookie]

Thank you to everyone who has replied to this thread.

I have looked at the Runequest Core Rules Questions thread, what I could find for an answer was unsatisfyingly vague.

[Now going to type weapon skills as Category (Specific Weapon, method of use), using the listings from p208-212. If in quotes, "Weapon" is what is written in the rulebook.]

For reference, my original post listed the different interpretations that each entry could have with regard to the specific skills used.
e.g. "Dagger +10%" in Cultural Weapons - it is unclear whether this is supposed to be a bonus to the category Dagger (covering 4 specific weapons) or Dagger (Dagger) the specific weapon skill.
"Battle Axe +15%" in Cultural Weapons - it is unclear whether this is supposed to be a bonus to the skill 1H Axe (Battle Axe 1H), the skill 2H Axe (Battle Axe 2H), or both skills.

The character sheet doesn't make things any clearer - listing the skills as "1H Axe" & "2H Axe" doesn't  tell me where my bonus for Battle Axe goes.
Broadsword is listed separately to the other 3 weapons in the 1H Sword category, but the sheet states "1H Spear (includes Lance)", instead of listing Lance, Short Spear and Javelin separately; a fact that got past a number of people who've created character generators for this edition of RQ - they've used the skills listed on the character sheet as being the skills, not realising that some of them are categories that need to be made more specific. Also applies to anyone using a fillable pdf version of the character sheet from the rulebook; with no place to write the specific weapon next to the category, it appears some people have not realised that they need to select a specific weapon.

There is a section in the RQ CRQ thread that makes things even less clear:

Quote 11/13/2018: "Yes. It's not explicit, but when get a cultural or professional skill bonus to a starting weapon (such as a javelin) that can be thrown or used in hand-to-hand, you start with both at the same skill. If you add points to them while customizing your character, you should assign those points to one or the other. "

So that quote would seem to indicate that "Javelin" in Cultural Weapons refers to both 1H Spear (Javelin, melee) and Javelin (Javelin, thrown), with a possibility of also including 1H Spear (Javelin, melee offhand), Javelin (Javelin, thrown offhand), Javelin (Dart), Javelin (Dart offhand), Javelin (Short Spear, thrown) and/or Javelin (Short Spear, thrown offhand). What it and similar skills refer to in Occupations is also unclear - but apparently once you get to Step 7 in character creation, they all become separately identifiable skills that must be increased individually; it's just not clear beforehand.

I'm a highly experience RPGamer with GMing experience in multiple systems - my RQ playing experience is limited to this edition, although I created a character for RQ (RQ2?) a long time ago and have been vaguely familiar on and off with the world setting and the system over time. I'm having trouble with this - the newbies in our group who are seeing all this for the first time have no clue and are looking to myself and the GM for guidance, which we are both struggling to provide. We think we've divined some of the intent behind what is in the rulebook and choices have been made for the campaign we are in, but I was seeking some more explicit clarifications on what skill(s) is actually being referred to, since it is (to us at least) very unclear.

If I recall correctly all the decisions made so far in our campaign, we decided that "Dagger" was Dagger (Dagger), "Battle Axe" was 1H Axe (Battle Axe 1H), "Javelin" was Javelin (Javelin, thrown), "Throwing Dagger" is not mentioned in Cultural Weapons and didn't come up for anyone's Occupation choices, the "Lance or Short Spear" option for Sable Riders was deemed to be 1H Spear (Lance) or 1H Spear (Short Spear), and the "1H Spear" and "1H or 2H Spear" options for Cultural Weapons were needing to be a specific weapon falling under that category (our Old Tarshite (Orlanth) Heavy Infantry is using a Short Spear 1H & a Large Shield, to very good effect.)

I like Runequest and I'm enjoying the campaign I'm in, but the lack of clarity in the rules is off-putting at times - we had someone create as their first character a Lhankor Mhy sorcerer, but they ran afoul of this issue with the skills section of the character sheet, rolled stats away from the table instead of using the stat array as defined by the GM, did their maths badly in many sections of the character sheet and quit before they started when the GM stated he thought the character needed checking. The GM banned Sorcery from his PCs after that (a good call, I reckon) and I ended up homebrewing an expanded skills section (running to several pages) to help keep things straight, which became even more useful when we found the defaulting rules. So we're keen to keep going with the campaign (6-7 players, still running through Discord & Roll20 through the Covid-19 lockdown), we just want help with interpreting what was meant from what was written.

 

 

[Blindhamster]

25 minutes ago, Wookie said:

Thank you to everyone who has replied to this thread.

I have looked at the Runequest Core Rules Questions thread, what I could find for an answer was unsatisfyingly vague.

[Now going to type weapon skills as Category (Specific Weapon, method of use), using the listings from p208-212. If in quotes, "Weapon" is what is written in the rulebook.]For reference, my original post listed the different interpretations that each entry could have with regard to the specific skills used.
e.g. "Dagger +10%" in Cultural Weapons - it is unclear whether this is supposed to be a bonus to the category Dagger (covering 4 specific weapons) or Dagger (Dagger) the specific weapon skill.
"Battle Axe +15%" in Cultural Weapons - it is unclear whether this is supposed to be a bonus to the skill 1H Axe (Battle Axe 1H), the skill 2H Axe (Battle Axe 2H), or both skills.

To be fair, the rulebook says:

Quote

Where the listed skill is a broad category of weapons (such as 1H Axe), you should pick a weapon within that category (such as Battle Axe).
Cultural Weapons: These are the different types of weapons available to adventurers from different cultures. Where two or more weapons appear on a line, pick only one.

What that means, is cultural bonuses are always clearly for a specific weapon, just some cultures give you leeway to decide *which* weapon you get the bonus in.

So on the Daggers front, you could indeed argue you can pick any ONE dagger from the category to get the bonus in, or you could argue that it's referring to Dagger and only Dagger. Either way, the bonus applies to one weapon. You never get a bonus to an entire category.

If a weapon can be used both one handed and two handed, it is indeed a bit less clear, I'd probably rule that the character gets the bonus both one handed and two handed. But they'd need, once actually playing, I'd rule that improvements would go against EITHER one handed OR two handed depending on which was used during play that session.

25 minutes ago, Wookie said:

The character sheet doesn't make things any clearer - listing the skills as "1H Axe" & "2H Axe" doesn't  tell me where my bonus for Battle Axe goes.
Broadsword is listed separately to the other 3 weapons in the 1H Sword category, but the sheet states "1H Spear (includes Lance)", instead of listing Lance, Short Spear and Javelin separately; a fact that got past a number of people who've created character generators for this edition of RQ - they've used the skills listed on the character sheet as being the skills, not realising that some of them are categories that need to be made more specific. Also applies to anyone using a fillable pdf version of the character sheet from the rulebook; with no place to write the specific weapon next to the category, it appears some people have not realised that they need to select a specific weapon.

Totally agree, the character sheet section for weapon skills isn't great at all, it could do with a tweak, personally i'd leave all the rows blank and let the person using the sheet fill it in. I was going to modify the fillable PDF myself for this, but the text is an image, not actual text. But the character sheet absolutely is the cause of a lot of confusion with how this part of the rules work!

25 minutes ago, Wookie said:

There is a section in the RQ CRQ thread that makes things even less clear:

Quote 11/13/2018: "Yes. It's not explicit, but when get a cultural or professional skill bonus to a starting weapon (such as a javelin) that can be thrown or used in hand-to-hand, you start with both at the same skill. If you add points to them while customizing your character, you should assign those points to one or the other. "

So that quote would seem to indicate that "Javelin" in Cultural Weapons refers to both 1H Spear (Javelin, melee) and Javelin (Javelin, thrown), with a possibility of also including 1H Spear (Javelin, melee offhand), Javelin (Javelin, thrown offhand), Javelin (Dart), Javelin (Dart offhand), Javelin (Short Spear, thrown) and/or Javelin (Short Spear, thrown offhand). What it and similar skills refer to in Occupations is also unclear - but apparently once you get to Step 7 in character creation, they all become separately identifiable skills that must be increased individually; it's just not clear beforehand.

Yeah, so, the above does pretty much fit exactly how i suggested you'd need to handle battle axes.

You'd have your character sheet with Javelin in both the Melee Weapons and Missile weapons section. You'd get the cultural bonus on both. You'd also get the occupation bonus on both. But when you get to customisation points or skill improvements during play, you'd need to increase them individually.

Again, Javelin has the complexity of ALSO being a category, which is i guess what you were alluding to with the Javelin (Dart) etc. But if you assume the cultural bonus is for any weapon from the Javelin category, rather than the Javelin weapon specifically, you would still need to pick WHICH weapon from the category. If you picked Javelin, it would work as i wrote above. If you picked Dart, you'd only get the cultural bonus on darts.

 

 

 

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

16 hours ago, aries04 said:

I can see how this is confusing though. As a new player, and having played with some power gamers in the past, if I had sufficient strength, I’d just choose Battle Axe (the 1H option) so my base skill was 10, then I could 2H if I wanted with the higher skill or use any of the weapons of the two categories covering battle axe at half my skill. If I read that right, it seems battle axe is a good choice for a lot of options with one skill. 
 

It appears dagger got it right, if you’re skilled with a parrying dagger, it makes sense that you may not be as good at striking or throwing with a dagger, so the half penalty for in category use. 

I certainly wouldn't give someone half their skill to attack if their skill was parry and vice versa.

 

56 minutes ago, Wookie said:

Quote 11/13/2018: "Yes. It's not explicit, but when get a cultural or professional skill bonus to a starting weapon (such as a javelin) that can be thrown or used in hand-to-hand, you start with both at the same skill. If you add points to them while customising your character, you should assign those points to one or the other. "

So that quote would seem to indicate that "Javelin" in Cultural Weapons refers to both 1H Spear (Javelin, melee) and Javelin (Javelin, thrown), with a possibility of also including 1H Spear (Javelin, melee offhand), Javelin (Javelin, thrown offhand), Javelin (Dart), Javelin (Dart offhand), Javelin (Short Spear, thrown) and/or Javelin (Short Spear, thrown offhand). What it and similar skills refer to in Occupations is also unclear - but apparently once you get to Step 7 in character creation, they all become separately identifiable skills that must be increased individually; it's just not clear beforehand.

Yeah, that quote doesn't seem to help...;)

I haven't played under these rules (but i do have huge amounts under the very similar RQ 2,3 and variants),  but I would take it that any reference to players getting a skill (any skill) means one skill (for all skills). Attack or parry, not both. references to Javelin, bow, sling, dart or any projectile refers to it being used as a projectile weapon not melee in any effect and vice versa.

Forget about skill groups for the moment.

Have the players pick one primary cultural melee weapon (attack), Shield parry (if primary is 1H) or weapon parry, one cultural missile weapon (ranged attack) and one secondary (side) weapon attack.

That is all they need and should have.

There is time to sort the other stuff later.

Lhankor Mhy sorcerer? They don't use sorcery, do they?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

15 hours ago, Richard S. said:

My Humakti who's become a renowned master of swordplay can't even swing an axe reliably without seasons worth of work. In fact, I'd say that for a game about heroes the whole skill list is bloated.

They are quite (but not enormously) different weapons, watch any of the vids on u-tube to see the differences. I can point you to some really good ones if you want.

I feel the best times I've had with players are at low levels, they are more inventive, less willing to fight and fumble more often!