Yelmalion at an Elmal temple.

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Manimati said:

As external observers, with god-learner like perspective, we do realize that they are the same myth, but how do the people in Glorantha feel about it ?  

My guess, your average Elmali would look at the Yelmalion Hill of Gold myth and go "yes, it's Elmal's history, but it focuses on the wrong thing" as they're more focused on his survival atop the hill (on day 4 in Arcane Lore's write up -- which I think is the only one easily available?) against the chaos/blood parasites.

Also they probably look at the conflict between the Little Sun and Orlanth on the earlier day and go "Well of course this was Orlanth and Elmal exchanging shields, not a struggle." While the Yelmalions recall Orlanth seizing Yelmalio's arms and armour.

To an Arkati or a God Learner, this would probably count as a heroquest shortcut, one that they could use to help grab amber crystals without dealing with all the stages, but to Elmali and Yelmalions this would be a matter of doctrine like homoousionism vs homoisianism.

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Manimati said:

As external observers, with god-learner like perspective, we do realize that they are the same myth, but how do the people in Glorantha feel about it ?

People in Glorantha feel whichever way you want about it  It depends if you want to make it a story or theme or adventure out of it.

A lot of people could still be grumbling about this issue despite "obvious proof" from Monrogh, the same way there's still a lot of people who grumble about (or even don't believe in) climate change or the Earth being round or vaccines being good. Or, maybe, a lot of people might indeed acknowledge the Elmal/Yelmalio identity, but still promote, or even fight violently, for their "traditions". There are obvious historical precedents for cultural and/or armed conflict between people who agree they have the same God(s), but disagree vehemently about how to call it, how to worship it, etc. There's a lot of resonating themes to deal with here, if you want that kind of heavy treatment in your game... if so, you may introduce a gallery of NPCs (and even PCs!) going from people who quietly and peacefully preserve Elmali traditions in their small community, slowly losing people each generation, to Elmali proselytizers traveling the country, all the way to a couple of hard-core Elmali steads where they stockpile pikes and shields under a big Elmali flag...err... shrine, plotting the takeover of their local clan ring (sorry, I've just finished binge watching Justified recently, so this is on my mind ). There are probably many other more interesting treatments of this whole matter.

Edited May 18, 2020 by lordabdul

[Bill the barbarian]

On 5/17/2020 at 3:15 PM, lordabdul said:

When you really go into it, pretty much everybody grumbles about the Sun Domers anyway  

Especially the Sun Domer women!

[GAZZA]

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

I disagree with virtually every point you make here. Pretty much everyone in Sartar would agree that Elmal and Yelmalio are the same deity or aspects of the same deity. The revelation that Elmal is Yelmalio ended the in-fighting among the Elmali, which killed one Prince of Sartar, and badly weakened the kingdom of Sartar. The establishment of the Sun Dome strengthened Sartar, and Yelmalio pikemen died for King Tarkalor at the Battle of Grizzly Peak.

I have found that simply ignoring the whole existence of Elmal is a surprisingly valid strategy for dealing with the confusion.

[John Biles]

10 hours ago, lordabdul said:

People in Glorantha feel whichever way you want about it  It depends if you want to make it a story or theme or adventure out of it.

A lot of people could still be grumbling about this issue despite "obvious proof" from Monrogh, the same way there's still a lot of people who grumble about (or even don't believe in) climate change or the Earth being round or vaccines being good. Or, maybe, a lot of people might indeed acknowledge the Elmal/Yelmalio identity, but still promote, or even fight violently, for their "traditions". There are obvious historical precedents for cultural and/or armed conflict between people who agree they have the same God(s), but disagree vehemently about how to call it, how to worship it, etc. There's a lot of resonating themes to deal with here, if you want that kind of heavy treatment in your game... if so, you may introduce a gallery of NPCs (and even PCs!) going from people who quietly and peacefully preserve Elmali traditions in their small community, slowly losing people each generation, to Elmali proselytizers traveling the country, all the way to a couple of hard-core Elmali steads where they stockpile pikes and shields under a big Elmali flag...err... shrine, plotting the takeover of their local clan ring (sorry, I've just finished binge watching Justified recently, so this is on my mind ). There are probably many other more interesting treatments of this whole matter.

The thing is, in Glorantha, you can still do Elmal's quests and thus prove the Elmal version of the story is true and thus assume Monrogh just lied.

So it becomes basically unresolvable. 

 

[Jeff]

13 hours ago, Tindalos said:

My guess, your average Elmali would look at the Yelmalion Hill of Gold myth and go "yes, it's Elmal's history, but it focuses on the wrong thing" as they're more focused on his survival atop the hill (on day 4 in Arcane Lore's write up -- which I think is the only one easily available?) against the chaos/blood parasites.

Also they probably look at the conflict between the Little Sun and Orlanth on the earlier day and go "Well of course this was Orlanth and Elmal exchanging shields, not a struggle." While the Yelmalions recall Orlanth seizing Yelmalio's arms and armour.

To an Arkati or a God Learner, this would probably count as a heroquest shortcut, one that they could use to help grab amber crystals without dealing with all the stages, but to Elmali and Yelmalions this would be a matter of doctrine like homoousionism vs homoisianism.

Given that the average Elmali concluded that Monrogh's revelations opened their airs to the greater nature of their god and they embraced the new Yelmalio "movement" and the Sun Dome Temples, it is perhaps more accurate to say that the average Elmali is ... a Yelmalio cultist. The few that rejected the Sun Dome Temples are bitter clingers, holding on to a lesser spirit.

[GAZZA]

28 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Given that the average Elmali concluded that Monrogh's revelations opened their airs to the greater nature of their god and they embraced the new Yelmalio "movement" and the Sun Dome Temples, it is perhaps more accurate to say that the average Elmali is ... a Yelmalio cultist. The few that rejected the Sun Dome Temples are bitter clingers, holding on to a lesser spirit.

I guess we'll have to wait for the gods book, but my understanding was that Elmal still got fire magic. Given that Fireblade and Firearrow are amongst the more popular and powerful spirit magic spells I think a lot of players might consider that Elmal is the more powerful of the two (though geasa and gifts are always a wild card).

Or does Elmal not have fire spells now, and if so does that mean that ZZ nicked them from Elmal too? I must confess that most of my notes are from RQ3 publications; I've tried to muddle through this Elmal stuff but I don't really know where to look other than KoDP.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The few that rejected the Sun Dome Temples are bitter clingers, holding on to a lesser spirit.

So, the ones that rejected Yelmalio are bitter clingers and the ones who accepted Yelmalio are bitter cry-babies, bleating on about Shield?

That makes sense, thanks.

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

I guess we'll have to wait for the gods book, but my understanding was that Elmal still got fire magic. Given that Fireblade and Firearrow are amongst the more popular and powerful spirit magic spells I think a lot of players might consider that Elmal is the more powerful of the two (though geasa and gifts are always a wild card).

Or does Elmal not have fire spells now, and if so does that mean that ZZ nicked them from Elmal too? I must confess that most of my notes are from RQ3 publications; I've tried to muddle through this Elmal stuff but I don't really know where to look other than KoDP.

Elmal does not have Fire spells. 

A problem with Elmal is that he did not exist in RQ3 because by 1621, the Elmal cult had already become the Yelmalio cult. Greg came up with Elmal as he was trying to understand the Orlanthi of the FIRST AGE, and David Dunham included him in KoDP because that takes place BEFORE the Elmali embraced the Yelmalio cult.

So one way of looking at this is:
Pre-Sartar: Elmal is identical to Yelmalio, but associated with Orlanth instead of Yelm. No access to Sun Spear or Speak to Birds. Elmal cult subservient to Orlanth cult.

Saronil Era (1520-1550) - Elmal clans come in to increasing contact and influence from lowland Pelorian religion where the solar cults rule a pantheon of gods. Some embrace the Yelm cult, some Lodril, and others embrace the Seven Mothers. Monrogh brings back Yelmalio and his cult grows quickly. Varathanis (one of Monrogh's Witnesses) helps Dorasor found New Pavis and brings Monrogh's cult to Sun County, ending the Solitude of Testing..

Conflict Era (1550-1569) - Elmal clans in full revolt. Elmali murder Prince Jarosar. Most Elmal clans embrace Yelmalio and the armed cult aids Tarkalor against the Kitori.

The Sun Dome Temple Era (1570 - 1599) - Prince Tarkalor recognises Yelmalio and gives cult the Amber Fields and Vantaar, which becomes the Sun Dome Temple (which Tarkalor sponsors). Sun Dome Temple fights for King Tarkalor at Grizzly Peak. 

The Lunar era (1600 - 1624) - the Sun Dome Temple refuses to fight for Prince Salinarg. Their independence is acknowledged by the Lunar Provincial Government. The cult is willing to serve as mercenaries for the Lunars, however, they refuse to embrace Seven Mothers. 

Now (1625 - ) - The Sun Dome Temple is again independent and autonomous.

[GAZZA]

Hmm. I do really appreciate the effort but I'm missing too much context to "get" this. I don't understand "Yelmalio that was brought back by Monrogh" here - did Yelmalio bugger off for a pizza for a few centuries and let his "friend" "Elmal" who wore a domino mask take over until Monroph revealed that Bruce Wayne was actually Batman?

I think I'm a lost cause here; I'm just going to continue to ignore this Elmal chap as it seems for the era I'm playing at that's more or less fine.

[Jeff]

8 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Hmm. I do really appreciate the effort but I'm missing too much context to "get" this. I don't understand "Yelmalio that was brought back by Monrogh" here - did Yelmalio bugger off for a pizza for a few centuries and let his "friend" "Elmal" who wore a domino mask take over until Monroph revealed that Bruce Wayne was actually Batman?

I think I'm a lost cause here; I'm just going to continue to ignore this Elmal chap as it seems for the era I'm playing at that's more or less fine.

The way most people today would say it is that Elmal was the part of Yelmalio the Orlanthi knew at the Dawn.

Cults change in Time, even if the gods don't.

[French Desperate WindChild]

so what I understand is an Elmali is considering his god Y-Elmal-io as the loyal thane of Orlanth

But what is considering a Yelmalite ? Does it depend on his location ? (a sartarite sundomer consider Y-Elmal-io loyal to Orlanth when a pelorian sundomer consider Y-Elmal-io loyal to Yelm ?)

Or in all case a Yelmalite is considering Y-Elmal-io is neutral to Orlanth and loyal to his father Yelmc? something else ?

 

 

[soltakss]

12 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

so what I understand is an Elmali is considering his god Y-Elmal-io as the loyal thane of Orlanth

That is also my understanding.

15 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But what is considering a Yelmalite ? Does it depend on his location ? (a sartarite sundomer consider Y-Elmal-io loyal to Orlanth when a pelorian sundomer consider Y-Elmal-io loyal to Yelm ?)

Or in all case a Yelmalite is considering Y-Elmal-io is neutral to Orlanth and loyal to his father Yelmc? something else ?

I think that Yelmalio is loyal to Yelm and a rival to Orlanth. That, for me, is the difference between Yelmalio and Elmal. 

It may be that the Yelmalio cult just does not acknowledge the part of Yelmalio's history where he was Orlanth's Thane, or that Elmal concentrates almost solely on that to the exclusion of being a good son to Yelm.

I prefer to think of it that Yelmalio sheds Elmal, so they actually start off as two deities but Yelmalio effectively devolves into Yelmalio and Elmal, with Elmal going off and helping Orlanth but Yelmalio going off to help the Aldryami.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 minutes ago, soltakss said:

It may be that the Yelmalio cult just does not acknowledge the part of Yelmalio's history where he was Orlanth's Thane, or that Elmal concentrates almost solely on that to the exclusion of being a good son to Yelm.

But Monrogh (Yelmalio) said Elmal is Yelmalio, so his cult (at least those who follow him, so in Sartar, Prax and ... i don't know) should know Yelmalio was Orlanth's Thane too. Or maybe the interpretation is not thane but ally against darkness / chaos. In all case I cannot imagine they ignore some kind of association in God Time (not as cult association, but more "story association")

[Grievous]

48 minutes ago, soltakss said:

It may be that the Yelmalio cult just does not acknowledge the part of Yelmalio's history where he was Orlanth's Thane, or that Elmal concentrates almost solely on that to the exclusion of being a good son to Yelm.

It certainly seems like this, which definitely brings up the possibility of an Elmalian resurgence by powerful Heroquesters, changing the nature of the Yelmalio cult once again. In light of the Six Ages, it could also possibly be a Hyaloring resurgence... which actually sounds pretty interesting, but all this may just be too confusing to contemplate in light of the RL history of this whole affair. 

[M Helsdon]

51 minutes ago, Grievous said:

It certainly seems like this, which definitely brings up the possibility of an Elmalian resurgence by powerful Heroquesters, changing the nature of the Yelmalio cult once again. 

The nature, if not the name, of the Yelmalio cult has remained fairly constant through the Ages, albeit with periodic decline and resurgence. It is only in Sartar that it completely disappeared and then was recreated. For much of history, Yelmalio and Elmal cults have existed at the same time, in different places (much as Yelmalio shares things, but is distinct from the cults of Antirius, Manimat, and Kargzant).

Neither the Praxian nor Sartar Yelmalions are entirely typical.

Edited May 19, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Sir_Godspeed]

As seen in previous threads (oh dear, here we go again) I think a lot of the reluctance to let go of Elmal is in a large part due to that Elma is a total bro, whereas is Yelmalio is often presented as a prudish dick. (pardon my French). 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

As seen in previous threads (oh dear, here we go again) I think a lot of the reluctance to let go of Elmal is in a large part due to that Elma is a total bro, whereas is Yelmalio is often presented as a prudish dick. (pardon my French). 

Yeah, well the more you dig into the history, the less the Elmal cultists seem like a bro. After all it was his cultists who murdered Prince Jarolar and refused to fight the Lunars.

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yeah, well the more you dig into the history, the less the Elmal cultists seem like a bro. After all it was his cultists who murdered Prince Jarolar and refused to fight the Lunars.

I get, but that doesn't seem like the general impression people have. Admittedly, these forums don't necessarily represent most folks (most of whom likely do not give a rat's tail about all of this, if fandom in general is anything to go by.)

Edited May 19, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Tindalos]

15 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yeah, well the more you dig into the history, the less the Elmal cultists seem like a bro. After all it was his cultists who murdered Prince Jarolar and refused to fight the Lunars.

The Iron Maidens regiment were Elmali cultists?

As they're the ones who seem to have killed Jarolar (KoS 115)

Or did you mean Jarosar, alternately said to have been killed by poison from a friend's hand (30) or lunar spirits (154)?

All that I've been able to find about him and the Elmali is they refused to help him. Which doesn't sound the same as murdering him. (115)

[Jeff]

Just now, Tindalos said:

The Iron Maidens regiment were Elmali cultists?

As they're the ones who seem to have killed Jarolar (KoS 115)

Or did you mean Jarosar, alternately said to have been killed by poison from a friend's hand (30) or lunar spirits (154)?

All that I've been able to find about him and the Elmali is they refused to help him. Which doesn't sound the same as murdering him. (115)

Sorry, I mean Jarosar. Yes, the friend was an Elmali. And the Elmali thorough screwed Jarolar and Jarosar. The growing Yelmalio cult on the other hand aided Dorasor in settling New Pavis and aided Tarkalor against the trolls.

[Tindalos]

Just now, Jeff said:

Sorry, I mean Jarosar. Yes, the friend was an Elmali. And the Elmali thorough screwed Jarolar and Jarosar. The growing Yelmalio cult on the other hand aided Dorasor in settling New Pavis and aided Tarkalor against the trolls.

Ah okay, so the Lunar magic reference is mistaken, or did the Elmali use lunar magic?

But I'd assumed the Elmali not helping was the start of the Yelmalian rebellion, what with them doing things like turning to Yelm worship to rise up against their rulers as well.

I'm hoping we get to see more of this history stuff, along with the Yelmalian myths.

 

Although I will admit to being disappointed the Glorantha I fell in love with turning out to only having existed in the First Age.

[Manimati]

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

Although I will admit to being disappointed the Glorantha I fell in love with turning out to only having existed in the First Age.

That is precisely how we felt when Greg "gregged" us when he introduced Elmal. Greg did explain how and why it happened in the RuneQuest-Con convention booklet of 1994  "The birth of Elmal or, why I screwed up your Glorantha". You might find solace/consolation reading it (if you can get it).The booklet also included other essays on that issue by Stephen Martin and David Hall.

Since then "Yelmalio and Elmal" has been a bottomless source of discussions among Glorantha communities.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Manimati
added sentence on other essays

[Tindalos]

7 minutes ago, Manimati said:

That is precisely how we felt when Greg "gregged" us when he introduced Elmal. Greg did explain how and why it happened in the RuneQuest-Con convention booklet of 1994  "The birth of Elmal or, why I screwed up your Glorantha".

Apart from we're now told that never happens, that despite Elmal having been around he's effectively just a historical figure.

And that the different names and varieties of gods, outliers like the Darsenite thunder god, are now fallen forgotten by the wayside and everyone's now happy with unified gods.

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Manimati said:

Since then "Yelmalio and Elmal" has been a bottomless source of discussions among Glorantha communities.

Silly over-reactions. I sorted this all out to my own satisfaction at the time, and ten years later old Chaosium agreed I’d nailed it (long after @MOB had adopted my answer as canon).