Yelmalion at an Elmal temple.

[Manimati]

What happens when a yelmalion goes to an Elmal temple (for example that of Runegate) to worship ?

Does he get the benefits from the worship ? (I think he does IF he is allowed to attend)

How do the Elmal worshippers and priests react to his presence ? Is he welcomed coldly like a distant wayward cousin or is he prevented from accessing the site by local worshippers ? (I am not sure of that one)

Conversely, what happens when an Elmal worshipper goes to a sun dome temple (in Sartar, in Prax or in Tarsh) ?

[GAZZA]

12 minutes ago, Manimati said:

What happens when a yelmalion goes to an Elmal temple (for example that of Runegate) to worship ?

Does he get the benefits from the worship ? (I think he does IF he is allowed to attend)

How do the Elmal worshippers and priests react to his presence ? Is he welcomed coldly like a distant wayward cousin or is he prevented from accessing the site by local worshippers ? (I am not sure of that one)

Conversely, what happens when an Elmal worshipper goes to a sun dome temple (in Sartar, in Prax or in Tarsh) ?

I think Elmal is probably at least an associated cult to Yelmalio (there are several Gloranthan scholars that would argue it's actually the same god, in fact, but that smacks of Jrusteli heresy to me ) so I imagine they'd be fine. Elmal worshippers at a Yelmalio temple couldn't learn any fire based spirit magic, and Yelmalio worshippers at an Elmal temple probably can't take on any more gifts and geasa (although maybe they can, I haven't seen an official Elmal write up and it seems possible that when we have one, they might get the Gift/Geas treatment as well, similarly to Humakt and Yelmalio), but just a straight up "refresh your Rune Points"/"sac for Divine magic"/"do whatever you have to do in Hero Quest" is probably fine.

Note that Yelmalio is not an enemy diety even of Orlanth; he's definitely a rival (which is why Wind Lords and Light Sons have all the riddling stuff) and not exactly a best mate, but even on the Hill of Gold Orlanth was comparatively merciful (I mean, he's still a barbarian god, but he fell a long way short of tearing out the poor bloke's heart like ZZ did).

[Mirza]

I'll quote Jeff on this specific topic:

On 1/13/2019 at 7:21 AM, Jeff said:

For the purposes of RuneQuest, Elmal can (and will) be treated as a local variant of Yelmalio. Same thing with the elf variant of Yelmalio and the Pentan variant of Yelmalio. A worshiper of Elmal can go to a Sun Dome Temple and contact his god (i.e., replenish his Rune Points). A worshiper of Yelmalio can go to the temple at Runegate and contact his god (i.e. replenish his Rune Points). To make things more confusing, Elmal is often a title of Yelmalio, and Yelmalio is often a title of Elmal.

So yes, the Yelmalion can go to Runegate and worship there at the Elmal shrine as if it were a Yelmalio shrine, and vice-versa, and it works as normal for worshiping their god. The major issue with doing so isn't the divine, but the Elmali resentment towards the Yelmalions.

To the Elmali that remain in Runegate, the Yelmalions are those that abandoned Orlanth, that they were no longer the Loyal Thanes to Orlanth instead following their god in this strange way, there's also the political consequences of a significant portion of Runegate leaving for Vantaar (Sun Dome Temple in Sartar.) They just up and left, and in so leaving perhaps made it possible for the Lunars to destroy Runegate during the Invasion of Sartar (well at least some Elmali will believe that.)

As for an Elmali wanting to worship at Vantaar or any other Sun Dome Temple? They'd be welcomed by Yelmalions more than likely, the Yelmalions might try to convince the Elmali to convert to Yelmalio, but I doubt they' deny access to the Temple even if they didn't convert. The Yelmalions don't resent the Elmali, they see them as misguided perhaps but then again their fathers, and mothers too were once misguided in the same way, and that they still worship the same god even in a different fashion.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Mirza

[soltakss]

53 minutes ago, Manimati said:

What happens when a yelmalion goes to an Elmal temple (for example that of Runegate) to worship ?

Does he get the benefits from the worship ? (I think he does IF he is allowed to attend)

This is how I would do it ...

A Yelmalian in an Elmal Temple would gain the benefits of the Worship. They could regain Rune Points as normal. It may be that it takes a little bit longer to regain them, due to differences between Elmal and Yelmalio. Runespells that are available to both could be gained, but not those spells specific to Elmal.

56 minutes ago, Manimati said:

How do the Elmal worshippers and priests react to his presence ?

It depends on how he acts. If he comes across as an aloof, superior solar then they would not react well to him at all. If he comes across as a fellow light cultists wanting to pay homage to Elmal then he would be allowed in.

57 minutes ago, Manimati said:

Is he welcomed coldly like a distant wayward cousin or is he prevented from accessing the site by local worshippers ? (I am not sure of that one)

That might depend on the particular Elmal temple, how its worshippers reacted to the Elmal/Yelmalio division and what local politics are in play.

58 minutes ago, Manimati said:

Conversely, what happens when an Elmal worshipper goes to a sun dome temple (in Sartar, in Prax or in Tarsh) ?

I would think that he would be treated quite badly. Yelmalians are snobs and are aloof, Solar types. They don't like barbarians and the ones in Dragon pass had a big spilt from Elmal, so the wounds are still relatively fresh.

An Elmali might be allowed to worship, but not in the nice bits of the temple. If they have an annex for foreigners then the Elmali might be allowed to worship there.

 

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, Manimati said:

What happens when a yelmalion goes to an Elmal temple (for example that of Runegate) to worship ?

Does he get the benefits from the worship ? (I think he does IF he is allowed to attend)

I would say: yes.

3 hours ago, Manimati said:

How do the Elmal worshippers and priests react to his presence ? Is he welcomed coldly like a distant wayward cousin or is he prevented from accessing the site by local worshippers ? (I am not sure of that one)

The welcome is probably cool, modified by the individuals concerned. A Yelmalion who is polite and offers a sacrifice or other gift to the Elmal temple will get a much friendlier welcome than an aloof Yelmalion who obviously disapproves of Elmalions.

3 hours ago, Manimati said:

Conversely, what happens when an Elmal worshipper goes to a sun dome temple (in Sartar, in Prax or in Tarsh) ?

One thing to bear in mind is that Sartarite Yelmalions have the fervor of new converts, whilst those of Prax are from a fairly xenophobic outlier. Those of Tarsh and Saird are potentially far more relaxed, and it is worth bearing in mind that the Elmalions of Alda-Chur went north to seek help against the trolls and returned with the Golden Spearman, probably from a northern Sun Dome temple - and they wouldn't have received it if they hadn't been welcomed as Solar brothers, albeit barbarians...

So again it is going to depend on the demeanor of the individual Elmalions and the Yelmalion priests (who may, in Sartar, view them as potential converts, and be very welcoming).

It is worth noting that in our ancient world, people who recognised a foreign god as related to their own had no difficulty in making offerings in those temples. Gods such as Jove/Zeus were represented under different names and attributes throughout the Mediterranean and Near East, and a demi-god like Hercules was very widespread, even if called Melqart or some other name.

Edited May 14, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Manimati]

Thanks for the answers, 

I have a follow-up question : What does the Elmal temple in Runegate look like ? Does it look like the sun dome temple on P 285 of RQG or like the Elmal temples of King of Dragon Pass:   or  , which don't have a dome and are visibly horse oriented ?

It is hard to tell from the Runegate map p 49 of the RQ Gamemaster Adventure book. 

The map and text p 61 of Sartar Companion  describe a KoDP-like temple, but that was before the city had been destroyed by the Crimson Bat and subsequently rebuilt.

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Manimati
added reference to map P49 of RQ GMA and to p 61 of Sartar companion

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Manimati said:

Thanks for the answers, 

I have a follow-up question: What does the Elmal temple in Runegate look like ? Does it look like the sun dome temple on P 285 of RQG or like the Elmal temples of King of Dragon Pass...

The latter. It isn't a Sun Dome Temple.

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, Manimati said:

Thanks for the answers, 

I have a follow-up question : What does the Elmal temple in Runegate look like ? Does it look like the sun dome temple on P 285 of RQG or like the Elmal temples of King of Dragon Pass:   or  , which don't have a dome and are visibly horse oriented ?

 

An Elmal temple is very unlikely to have a dome, because that is a very specifically Yelmalion architectural attribute. Instead it will look very much like an Orlanthi temple to a male god, though probably square. A large one, and there are probably very few large Elmal temples in Dragon Pass, might have an open interior courtyard so that ceremonies can be performed under the Sun.

(If it were in Ralios, I'd suggest something like the Konark Sun Temple.)

[Stephen L]

9 hours ago, Manimati said:

It is hard to tell from the Runegate map p 49

Zoomed in, certainly doesn't look like a dome, looks like flat top with eves to me:

[NewMars]

Regardless of the religious split, for the temple in runegate specifically, I don't think a Yelmalion would be allowed in for purely political reasons. Before the bat wrecked the place it hated them, afterwards? Relations went very, very downhill. The Triarty are loyalist elmali noted for not having good relations with Vaantar because of that and the high priest in charge is noted for his specific hatred of Yelmalio, equal to his hatred of Chaos. This is from the Sartar companion, mind you. Other elmal-identified figures in the town hate it as well, and the Sun Domes are considered one of the major local threats to the town.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, NewMars said:

Regardless of the religious split, for the temple in runegate specifically, I don't think a Yelmalion would be allowed in for purely political reasons. Before the bat wrecked the place it hated them, afterwards? Relations went very, very downhill. The Triarty are loyalist elmali noted for not having good relations with Vaantar because of that and the high priest in charge is noted for his specific hatred of Yelmalio, equal to his hatred of Chaos. This is from the Sartar companion, mind you. Other elmal-identified figures in the town hate it as well, and the Sun Domes are considered one of the major local threats to the town.

Getting a negative initial reaction for ties to Sun Dome County of Vanntar or possibly the Vantaros tribe (Harvar's lot, suspiciously bearing a similar name) is fairly likely, meaning that access to the temple may be denied or become a lot more costly.

But what would you as a GM do about a Yelmalio (or Lightfore, Sun Daughter) worshiper from Praxian Beast RIder stock (most likely Zebra or Impala Rider), Balazar or Saird, uninvolved with either Vanntar or the local Elmal temple, then? Or an Elmali from a distant place (say the far end of Esrolia) with as variant customs? Not to mention all those Tarshites... And then there could be worshipers of Reladivus or Kargzant from further north, or from the Grazelands.

 

From the Locaem write-up in Pegasus Plateau (which thankfully doesn't need to be spoiler-tagged to appease the Barbarian), it almost appears as the entire Elmal->Yelmalio switch was mainly a Locaem problem, with sun worshipers further away from Vanntar hardly involved. The Dinacoli would have included Yelmalio worshipers of the Sairdite tradition rather than Elmali, to start with, and they managed to be included in the Jonstown Confederation for a while, as the sixth tribe of Orlanthi associated with it (not counting the Telmori who technically would be involved too).

[Shiningbrow]

On 5/15/2020 at 3:29 PM, Manimati said:

Thanks for the answers, 

I have a follow-up question : What does the Elmal temple in Runegate look like ? Does it look like the sun dome temple on P 285 of RQG or like the Elmal temples of King of Dragon Pass:   or  , which don't have a dome and are visibly horse oriented ?

It is hard to tell from the Runegate map p 49 of the RQ Gamemaster Adventure book. 

The map and text p 61 of Sartar Companion  describe a KoDP-like temple, but that was before the city had been destroyed by the Crimson Bat and subsequently rebuilt.

 

My 2 bolgs on this would would be the 🐎 oriented... But that's specifically Runegate, located in the lands of the Hyaloring Triaty lands (who are very horsey peoples) and there's a temple to Elmal's wife, Redalda (a horse goddess).

 

Now, if you were to ask about an Elmal temple in some other city or town, I'd probably give a different answer... For 2 bolgs...

 

(And, yes, I recognise that bolgs are an evil, darkness creature currency, which shows just how little value my'comment is probably worth!)

[Minlister]

Quote

(And, yes, I recognise that bolgs are an evil, darkness creature currency

How, but there is a Sky equivalent, but probably only for huge payments in bags, the Fir(e) bolg...

[Darius West]

On 5/14/2020 at 5:16 PM, Manimati said:

What happens when a yelmalion goes to an Elmal temple (for example that of Runegate) to worship ?

Does he get the benefits from the worship ? (I think he does IF he is allowed to attend)

How do the Elmal worshippers and priests react to his presence ? Is he welcomed coldly like a distant wayward cousin or is he prevented from accessing the site by local worshippers ? (I am not sure of that one)

Conversely, what happens when an Elmal worshipper goes to a sun dome temple (in Sartar, in Prax or in Tarsh) ?

I would make it your classic urban versus rural culture clash.  I mean, Elmali still have their fire rune and so can use fireblade and firearrow, but they don't have the Chaotic Severed Head magic of the Yelmalios.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I mean, Elmali still have their fire rune

Apparently this will no longer be true in upcoming publications. It's been discussed A LOT, so I don't want to start this discussion again, but that's basically Chaosium's take on it nowadays, from what I gather.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Jeff]

If a worshiper from a Sun Dome Temple went to a rural shrine to the Cold Sun, he's have no trouble contacting his god. Maybe the crotchety old priest of the shrine might grumble about Sun Domers, but that's about it. 

[Lordabdul]

When you really go into it, pretty much everybody grumbles about the Sun Domers anyway  

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

When you really go into it, pretty much everybody grumbles about the Sun Domers anyway  

Yeah but that comes down a lot to tribal attitudes, what with those around them being hostile to them (RQG 108), but if they get through the clan's territory without suffering anything worse than being called a thief or traitor. Then they'd have few troubles at the temple itself.

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Yeah but that comes down a lot to tribal attitudes, what with those around them being hostile to them (RQG 108), but if they get through the clan's territory without suffering anything worse than being called a thief or traitor. Then they'd have few troubles at the temple itself.

They are Sartarites, and remember, they got the Sun Dome Temple and recognition from none other than High King Tarkalor himself. Orlanth is Neutral towards Yelmalio. 

Now the Locaem tribe are hostile, and the Colymar, Kultain, and Lismelder not much better. Then again, the Colymar are hostile towards the Locaem and Malani tribes (and to some extent towards the Kheldon), so that is pretty normal tribal attitudes.

[Nick Brooke]

On 5/14/2020 at 8:16 AM, Manimati said:

What happens when a yelmalion goes to an Elmal temple (for example that of Runegate) to worship ?

...

Conversely, what happens when an Elmal worshipper goes to a sun dome temple (in Sartar, in Prax or in Tarsh) ?

A story happens. Focus on that. Sod what "ought to happen," decide in each case based on the needs of your campaign, the specific location, and the personalities on both sides.

[Manimati]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

A story happens. .

Very true.

[Darius West]

20 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Apparently this will no longer be true in upcoming publications. It's been discussed A LOT, so I don't want to start this discussion again, but that's basically Chaosium's take on it nowadays, from what I gather.

That would be a terrible mistake imo.  Elmal is a separate deity in every way that matters, as it represents a completely separate tradition, tied to the Storm Pantheon not the Solar Pantheon.  To disallow the overlap of these different traditions is to ignore something at the core of what deities are in Glorantha.  For example, we know that Yelmalio loses his fire on the Hill of Gold to Zorak Zoran, but if a Yelmalio Sun Lord defeats their troll adversary during their hero quest on that hill, they gain fire powers.  Well... None of this story is part of Elmal's story.  Elmal guarded Orlanth's stead against the incursions of chaos.  Elmal never went to the Hill of Gold, as he was already in the service of Orlanth at the time. 

Yes, this is before Time and gods could be in 2 or more places at once, but nobody addresses what that means.  To my mind, the best answer to how to handle this idea is that gods are geographical, and just because Gloranthans "anthropomorphise" them so they can understand them, doesn't mean that is what they are.  Gods are simultaneously in all the places that they interacted with in God Time, but more in some places than in others, in much the same way that a traumatic event in an area may cause a haunting, even if there was no actual death involved.  So while every deity has a "holy of holies" where their "body" is stored in stasis, their connection is also to all of the mythic sites that they co-inhabit.  Deities are static, and that is how they have become eternal.  Now only the actions of their worshippers hero questing can slowly and incrementally change their myths.  This is especially true post God Learners, as the God Learners definitely exploited this ability to manipulate deities.  In this respect, the invisible God is wise; it is hard to manipulate what you can't detect, and what humans worship they will eventually understand and will ultimately seek to dominate.

[Tindalos]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

They are Sartarites, and remember, they got the Sun Dome Temple and recognition from none other than High King Tarkalor himself. Orlanth is Neutral towards Yelmalio.

They may be Sartarites, but they act very hard to not be, maintaining their independence (RQ:G 108) and do not swear loyalty to the ruler of Sartar (KoS 169)

And it's precisely that they got the land from King Tarkalor which may provide the problems. Their semi-autonomous tributary state (RQ:G 104) status suggests that their grant of land was a delegation as is usual for Orlanthi property administration. They may still be paying to use the land, but their attempts to be independent would easily be seen by other tribes as making them poor stewards.

[Jeff]

30 minutes ago, Darius West said:

That would be a terrible mistake imo.  Elmal is a separate deity in every way that matters, as it represents a completely separate tradition, tied to the Storm Pantheon not the Solar Pantheon.  To disallow the overlap of these different traditions is to ignore something at the core of what deities are in Glorantha.  For example, we know that Yelmalio loses his fire on the Hill of Gold to Zorak Zoran, but if a Yelmalio Sun Lord defeats their troll adversary during their hero quest on that hill, they gain fire powers.  Well... None of this story is part of Elmal's story.  Elmal guarded Orlanth's stead against the incursions of chaos.  Elmal never went to the Hill of Gold, as he was already in the service of Orlanth at the time. 

Yes, this is before Time and gods could be in 2 or more places at once, but nobody addresses what that means.  To my mind, the best answer to how to handle this idea is that gods are geographical, and just because Gloranthans "anthropomorphise" them so they can understand them, doesn't mean that is what they are.  Gods are simultaneously in all the places that they interacted with in God Time, but more in some places than in others, in much the same way that a traumatic event in an area may cause a haunting, even if there was no actual death involved.  So while every deity has a "holy of holies" where their "body" is stored in stasis, their connection is also to all of the mythic sites that they co-inhabit.  Deities are static, and that is how they have become eternal.  Now only the actions of their worshippers hero questing can slowly and incrementally change their myths.  This is especially true post God Learners, as the God Learners definitely exploited this ability to manipulate deities.  In this respect, the invisible God is wise; it is hard to manipulate what you can't detect, and what humans worship they will eventually understand and will ultimately seek to dominate.

I disagree with virtually every point you make here. Pretty much everyone in Sartar would agree that Elmal and Yelmalio are the same deity or aspects of the same deity. The revelation that Elmal is Yelmalio ended the in-fighting among the Elmali, which killed one Prince of Sartar, and badly weakened the kingdom of Sartar. The establishment of the Sun Dome strengthened Sartar, and Yelmalio pikemen died for King Tarkalor at the Battle of Grizzly Peak.

The Elmal Defends the Stead myth IS the Hill of Gold myth. Same story, just the emphasis is on a sub-section of the event. Monrogh revealed the "full myth" and could prove it in magical contests and heroquests.

[Manimati]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The Elmal Defends the Stead myth IS the Hill of Gold myth. Same story, just the emphasis is on a sub-section of the event. Monrogh revealed the "full myth" and could prove it in magical contests and heroquests.

As external observers, with god-learner like perspective, we do realize that they are the same myth, but how do the people in Glorantha feel about it ?

My guess it that a Yelmalion convert coming from Elmal worship should be aware of it, as most Yelmalio priests (with >50 % cult lore). But the common Yelmalion (for example a freshly initiated Yelmalion born in Vanntar with the customary 15% Yelmalio cult lore) probably doesn't care.

On the other hand, common Elmal worshippers in Runegate are probably more or less in deep denial on this issue, as are probably many Elmal priests and god-talkers.

   

Edited May 18, 2020 by Manimati