Was Argrath a hero or a villain?

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 hours ago, Minlister said:

I am not so sure about that, as some Late Antique societies for example were basically armies on the move. So their wars would naturally fit your description. 7th-century wars in the Eastern Mediterranean will also fit the bill. Furthermore, but it is a different problem, a total war would require, from my point of view, a mobilisation going well beyond economy.

Those antique wars were still seasonal. 

And steppe nomad societies were highly militarized, but they were primarily opportunists. 

I can agree with you that total war maybe should include some element of state-induced animosity or other, ie. a generalized hatred of "the enemy" that's not really possible in the pre-print or pre-broadcast era - but this is getting pretty complicated as it is, and the term already has formal definitions out there. It's not a term we just up and made up for this thread. 

[Minlister]

Sorry, I must disagree with you and I was absolutely not speaking about steppe nomad societies.

But I welcome the references for the "formal definition  of total war" as obviously my education is lacking. I would be happy to discuss it with the history students whose PhD I supervise.

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 hours ago, Minlister said:

But I welcome the references for the "formal definition  of total war" as obviously my education is lacking. I would be happy to discuss it with the history students whose PhD I supervise.

Dude - this is the internet. If you want people to respect or defer to your credentials, it's better to be upfront about it. I can't smell your degrees through cyberspace.

[Qizilbashwoman]

Listen I'm not a rocket surgeon about history but Glorantha has mythic war, not total war.

War can be horrifying and overwhelming without being total war. The destruction of Baghdad at the hands of the Mongols under Hülegü Khan remains almost as iconic in Islam as the destruction of Jerusalem in Judaism, differing only in that there was no Temple; to this day, mourning maqams are still in use that recall it. In only twelve days, the cultural, intellectual, medical and religious center of the Muslim world was annihilated, along with 90,000 of its inhabitants: men, women, and children. It was absolutely wanton destruction. The city's entire infrastructure was annihilated, including all thirty-six public libraries and their contents systematically destroyed, the House of Wisdom academies and their scholars, the historic mosques, all the wells were stuffed with human bodies. They even destroyed the ancient canal system, which ended the inhabitable zone of the region for centuries. There are plenty of modern books on the absolute horror of this event.

[John Biles]

Argath and Arkat may not technically be total war, but they both annhilate entire societies and render entire countries a destroyed wasteland.  The falling of something the size of the Red Moon to the ground is going to basically wipe out central Peloria.  The only good thing is that terminal velocity is a lot slower than the speed of the Dinosaur-obliterating meteor, but that thing is going to wipe out a pretty huge area, along with destroying the magic that undergirds the whole Lunar Empire.  Argath turned Dorastor into a burnt-out wasteland.

Killing the Red Goddess is about on par with if you somehow killed Quantum Mechanics today; goodbye our society.

The kind of devastation Heroes can inflict makes Total War look small; we still don't have bombs that can wipe out religions/technology.

 

[Minlister]

@Sir_Godspeed Sorry I lost my temper, but why should you have to know other people's credentials to abstain from being so dismissive about their posts?

@Qizilbashwoman I agree with you but I am not sure to see the connection with my own post. Especially as I never said that Glorantha experienced total war.

I learn a lot on this forum about all kind of things, but sometimes, honestly, I am fed up with people confusing being assertive and being right.

And I am not a dude.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Minlister
Wrong addressee!

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, John Biles said:

Argath and Arkat may not technically be total war, but they both annhilate entire societies and render entire countries a destroyed wasteland.  The falling of something the size of the Red Moon to the ground is going to basically wipe out central Peloria.  The only good thing is that terminal velocity is a lot slower than the speed of the Dinosaur-obliterating meteor, but that thing is going to wipe out a pretty huge area, along with destroying the magic that undergirds the whole Lunar Empire.  Argath turned Dorastor into a burnt-out wasteland.

Killing the Red Goddess is about on par with if you somehow killed Quantum Mechanics today; goodbye our society.

The kind of devastation Heroes can inflict makes Total War look small; we still don't have bombs that can wipe out religions/technology.

 

Who says that Argrath killed the Red Goddess? If you think that is the case, I'd suggest rereading KoS.

[John Biles]

15 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Who says that Argrath killed the Red Goddess? If you think that is the case, I'd suggest rereading KoS.

King of Sartar pretty clearly shows Argath getting the dragons to smash the Red Moon into flaming bits that rain down on Peloria and asserts this created fundamental metaphysical changes to Glorantha.

It also includes various speculation which undercuts this, like the Red Moon having been an illusion.

But the Guide to Glorantha tells us that the Red Moon is the Red Goddess, who created it/became it as she ascended.  So shredding it into bits would, at the very least, not be fun, and I think reasonably counts as killing the Red Goddess.  Perhaps she's reborn as something else, like the White Moon but this is pretty apocalyptic.

I mean, technically, the Dragons killed her, at Argath's request, but that's nitpicking.

 

 

[Minlister]

Quote

Perhaps she's reborn as something else

Nice! the Red Moon as some kind of cocoon  for the next transformation of Sedenya? And Argrath actually being instrumental in releasing her next stage evolution? 

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, John Biles said:

King of Sartar pretty clearly shows Argath getting the dragons to smash the Red Moon into flaming bits that rain down on Peloria and asserts this created fundamental metaphysical changes to Glorantha.

It also includes various speculation which undercuts this, like the Red Moon having been an illusion.

But the Guide to Glorantha tells us that the Red Moon is the Red Goddess, who created it/became it as she ascended.  So shredding it into bits would, at the very least, not be fun, and I think reasonably counts as killing the Red Goddess.  Perhaps she's reborn as something else, like the White Moon but this is pretty apocalyptic.

I mean, technically, the Dragons killed her, at Argath's request, but that's nitpicking.

 

 

Check out page 35 of the revised and abridged edition.

[John Biles]

9 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Check out page 35 of the revised and abridged edition.

Page 35 lists five possibilities, but is explicitly speculation about what maybe happened.  And the first possibility is that the Red Moon was, in fact, destroyed.

Whereas the Guide and King of Sartar include an explicit passage (the exact same one) which states that Argarth called up the Dragons and they smashed the Red Moon into bits and bits.  See page 28 of King of Sartar.  This whole section is repeated in the Guide, minus claims at the end this somehow made the Red Moon invisible.

So basically, King of Sartar is ambiguous, as it often is.

It also features Argath killing Wakboth and proclaiming gods and goddesses will no longer shape the world, which doesn't fit in with the Red Goddess' methodology very well..  (Because Wakboth apparently ate them all).  

[metcalph]

Just now, John Biles said:

Whereas the Guide and King of Sartar include an explicit passage (the exact same one) which states that Argarth called up the Dragons and they smashed the Red Moon into bits and bits.  See page 28 of King of Sartar. 

Except that this is a passage in a Saga as opposed to a statement of fact.  The same Saga we know to make false statements elsewhere (Argrath summoned Wyverns at Corflu, Argrath rescued Hofstaring from Hell etc).  So you can't really use the Saga as a proof of anything - at most, you can only say that Argrath's followers believed he destroyed the Red Goddess and that the real truth might be in the list of pissibilities outlined by Zin.

 

[Eff]

Everybody says Argrath killed Sedenya, but nobody says Argrath killed Orlanth, despite both of them having similar amounts of on-screen evidence in King of Sartar. Of course, the former is part of the surface point of the Argrathsaga, so the end of the Saga features a little note:

"So they say! But it's still here! And now it's invisible instead!"

And the latter, in "Argrath and the Devil", is a counterpoint that complicates Argrath and especially the process of historicizing Argrath's actions. So it needs no additional writing to complicate itself.

[David Scott]

Rather than compare saga, mythology and the Guide, I would ask what was Argrath's purpose in tearing down the Moon. The Moon in the Middle Air is a mix of the physical world of Glorantha (from the Crater) and a synthesised goddess made up of previous parts. Tearing it down is a physical act, returning the moon physically to the surface, but that doesn't mean that the goddesses is dead or sundered into parts, just that her physicality in the sky is gone. She's still inside time. Admittedly she is the incarnation of the Devil returning, but once the devil has gone, aren't we just left with the Moon Goddess? Verithursa returns unsullied?

[Nevermet]

sigh

I really need to reread KoS... last time I did so was... 10 years ago?

[jajagappa]

41 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

I really need to reread KoS... last time I did so was... 10 years ago?

Which means you've not read the revised edition.  Definitely worthwhile to pick up - includes timelines and an added chapter that are very useful when looking at the Hero Wars period.

[Nevermet]

Looks like there is gonna be a large DTRPG order in my near future between that and Jonstown Compendium stuff...

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Which means you've not read the revised edition.  Definitely worthwhile to pick up - includes timelines and an added chapter that are very useful when looking at the Hero Wars period.

Not available in French. And this is quite a difficult text if not in your native tongue, and I find RQG easy to read in english.

[John Biles]

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

Rather than compare saga, mythology and the Guide, I would ask what was Argrath's purpose in tearing down the Moon. The Moon in the Middle Air is a mix of the physical world of Glorantha (from the Crater) and a synthesised goddess made up of previous parts. Tearing it down is a physical act, returning the moon physically to the surface, but that doesn't mean that the goddesses is dead or sundered into parts, just that her physicality in the sky is gone. She's still inside time. Admittedly she is the incarnation of the Devil returning, but once the devil has gone, aren't we just left with the Moon Goddess? Verithursa returns unsullied?

Given that it's done to defeat the Monster Empire, which is causing reality to unravel, you could argue several ways:

1.  Argath thought it would banish the Red Goddess out of time.  The Red Moon is her physical link and once it dies, she's out of the physical world. 

2.  This segment starts with saying that the Monster Empire was one of the inevitable facets of the ever-changing moon.  So the Red Moon had to die to purify her of the taint of Chaos.

3.  Hacking her body into pieces may well be a way of returning her to her state before unification, busted back into pieces; as below, so above.  

4.  So long as the Red Goddess is trying to claim the Middle Air, struggle with Orlanth is inevitable, so to end that, the Red Moon has to go.

12 hours ago, Eff said:

Everybody says Argrath killed Sedenya, but nobody says Argrath killed Orlanth, despite both of them having similar amounts of on-screen evidence in King of Sartar. Of course, the former is part of the surface point of the Argrathsaga, so the end of the Saga features a little note:

"So they say! But it's still here! And now it's invisible instead!"

And the latter, in "Argrath and the Devil", is a counterpoint that complicates Argrath and especially the process of historicizing Argrath's actions. So it needs no additional writing to complicate itself.

To be fair to Argath, he doesn't kill Orlanth in a direct way; he just screws up the rite and Orlanth gets eaten.  Maybe deliberately.  Maybe not.

Argath basically doesn't care if anyone else lives or dies as long as he gets what he wants.  So I see it as callousness, rather than dedicating his life to getting to where he can kill Orlanth.

 

13 hours ago, metcalph said:

Except that this is a passage in a Saga as opposed to a statement of fact.  The same Saga we know to make false statements elsewhere (Argrath summoned Wyverns at Corflu, Argrath rescued Hofstaring from Hell etc).  So you can't really use the Saga as a proof of anything - at most, you can only say that Argrath's followers believed he destroyed the Red Goddess and that the real truth might be in the list of pissibilities outlined by Zin.

 

A fair point.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

19 hours ago, Minlister said:

@Qizilbashwoman I agree with you but I am not sure to see the connection with my own post. Especially as I never said that Glorantha experienced total war.

"Total war" was directed at the person who said "Glorantha fights total war"

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, Kloster said:

Not available in French. And this is quite a difficult text if not in your native tongue, and I find RQG easy to read in english.

Was the first edition available in French? I can't find a reference.

[Minlister]

@David Scott

http://www.legrog.org/jeux/runequest/roi-de-sartar-fr

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 8/13/2020 at 10:17 AM, Minlister said:

@Sir_Godspeed Sorry I lost my temper, but why should you have to know other people's credentials to abstain from being so dismissive about their posts?

 

I will be more mindful of my written tone in the future. I apologize for being more bombastic than what was warranted, instead of asking you to expand on your point. 

[Minlister]

@Sir_Godspeed Thanks for that kind message!

[Kloster]

On 8/14/2020 at 10:54 AM, David Scott said:

Was the first edition available in French? I can't find a reference.

Oriflam (once French RQ, Stormbringer and Hawkmoon licensee) translated and published 'King of Sartar' shortly after Chaosium released the 1st printing.