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MGF - They hover like birds of prey. Hovering and performing actions is equal to your ride (Hippogriff) skill (like horses).  Don't sweat the details. 

We've won several Pegasus Plateau hippogriffs, and two of us are physicists trying to calculate their maneuverability.  A lot comes down to their minimum speed to remain airborne. And, if you ask

In my Glorantha, the gods love real world physics -- the effects, if not the actual calculations.  They're enamored at how our physics so closely model the effects of their divine order.  They adore s

I would think they can hover? Stall speed is only really relevant if you need to keep moving in order to provide lift - unless there is some Motion/Air rune element to a hippogriff that requires it to keep moving?

There seem to be no Bonnacon in Glorantha, (although there really ought to be), and I can imagine they would stall if their jet propulsion failed or they hadn't eaten enough beans...

 

Edited by d(sqrt(-1))
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The best evidence I can offer is from the Prisoner of Azkaban:

Quote

Buckbeak is guided by Harry towards Professor Flitwick's office. He hovers by the window, held steady by Harry, as Sirius Black climbs onto his back as well. 

ūüôā

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Well, as everyone knows, there are neither African or European hippogriff¬†in Glorantha. It's Genertelan or Pamatelan, obviously ūüėõ¬†

I think the answer to your question depends on how you see Gloranthan physics and biology.

Hippogriff range from 99 to 366kg. They are logically carnivores although they might be scavengers as well as hunters. In the Bestiary it says they are '
tamable if raised from the egg', but then seems to imply that the 'impression' of the Hippochick is immediately followed by breaking it. Which sounds hinky as it implies they emerge from the egg fully grown. Big eggs. I think MG will vary with "Impression" taking place two years before they can be broken.

But I digress.

Given a value for G of anything that makes sense and an oxygen percentage in the atmosphere that is likewise believable (maybe it's called Oooo-gas, but you know what I mean), they cannot fly. At all. Just no.

So they are intrinsically magical flyers. The wings are there because flying things have wings, but the majority of the 'uplift' is magic.

So, of course they can hover.

I'd say they have an ability to float at whatever altitude they want (like a fish in water), but use wings to waft themselves about. At a hover they probably just lazily station-keep with their wings.

 

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8 hours ago, David Scott said:

Take a look at Kestrels, not much wind needed. I ignored the wind factor as it's not like there isn't going to be any...

Several raptors can hover, among them Kestrels (so much so, that one regional nickname for the bird is "windhover").

Some (most?) kites also hover.  Ospreys can, but do so less.

They all do it with rapid flapping, hovering in place.

Many other raptors cannot "hover" but can remain virtually motionless above the ground by flying into a wind that's at (or above) their stall-speed.

 

Also note that "stall speed" is only moderately relevant to a creature that flies by flapping its wings; there's energy-efficiency & calorie-conservation to be had in gliding, but they mostly don't "take off" by going fast enough... they do it by flapping harder, like a VTOL airplane (Harrier, Osprey, etc).

 

Edited by g33k
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Griffins & Hippogriffs are Solar/Sky creatures, so they are naturally adept at hovering in place, just as Yelm once sat immobile in the Sky.

It's only when you introduce the Winds of the Storm Tribe, with all their disruptive tendencies that Griffins and Hippogriffs struggle to hover effectively. 

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On a related note several of my players also picked up hippogriffs and I've been working out how to bridge the gap between their current stats and those of a full grown hippogriff in the Bestiary.

What I've settled on is that they can currently be ridden/flown as light cavalry until they reach an average SIZ/STR of 26. So no more than 3pt armour and moderate weapons for now, Cue¬†loud¬†cursing from the Thane of Apple Lane who had to give up his bronze greaves/vambraces. ūüėā

However, at each Sacred Time the hippogriffs will grow 2 points in each of their juvenile stats & increase their skills by 5% until they reach their mature stats. I hope this is a useful mechanic for other GMs who've run the excellent Pegasus Plateau adventure, my players in the Perth group really enjoyed it. And I’m looking forward to Sea Season 1627 when I can run it for my other group...

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11 hours ago, David Scott said:

MGF - They hover like birds of prey. Hovering and performing actions is equal to your ride (Hippogriff) skill (like horses). 

Don't sweat the details. 

This is now the official ruling in my game, and precisely for the reason of MGF. 

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59 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Our group is facing the same decision.  I think my PC is the only heavy warrior contemplating down-armoring by 2-3 points everywhere.

The price you pay for a glorious mount out of legend! ūüėāūü§£ūüėāūü§£

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5 hours ago, Monty Lovering said:

So they are intrinsically magical flyers. The wings are there because flying things have wings, but the majority of the 'uplift' is magic.

That's probably how it works in Glorantha. Hippogriffs have some sort of air rune association that lets them fly, rather than generating lift to overcome the force of gravity (does gravity even exist in Gloantha?).I think it has to work that way. With what I know of aircraft and horses, I doubt a hippogriff could run fast enough for it's wings to provide enough lift to make it airborne, plus I doubt the wings could take the wingloading (around 125kg per wing) if it could. So probably magic is providing most of the lift.

 

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7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

That's probably how it works in Glorantha. Hippogriffs have some sort of air rune association that lets them fly, rather than generating lift to overcome the force of gravity (does gravity even exist in Gloantha?).I think it has to work that way. With what I know of aircraft and horses, I doubt a hippogriff could run fast enough for it's wings to provide enough lift to make it airborne, plus I doubt the wings could take the wingloading (around 125kg per wing) if it could. So probably magic is providing most of the lift.

 

Yup. And allowing their flyingness to be intrinsic and magical, and their wings to just be feathery oars, also means they can actually have riders. Otherwise they'd be grounded as soon as someone sat astride.

It reminds me a bit of the dragons from the Pern books by Anne McCathery. At some point it was realised that they shouldn't be able to fly, let alone with a rider. It was realised they primarily supported themselves by subconscious telekinetics. From then on the answer to 'how much can a drain carry' was "However much it thinks it can".

There's no point in treating hippogriffs, griffons, dragons, etc. flying as an exercise in physics. Handwavium, or hippogriff wingwavium rules.

 

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2 hours ago, Monty Lovering said:

There's no point in treating hippogriffs, griffons, dragons, etc. flying as an exercise in physics. Handwavium, or hippogriff wingwavium rules.

Yes, in Glorantha. ON some other world it might be different. They could have hollow, but somehow very strong bones (perhaps some sort of honeycomb structure?) and be extremely muscular, like birds.But a scientific explanation doesn't really work in Glorantha where everything is magical in some way, and Storm Lords can fly with no scientific basis whatsoever.

 

Besides. Hypogriff and similar beasts seem to be able to just leap into the air and fly rather than build up speed to take off.

Edited by Atgxtg
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On 9/15/2020 at 4:05 PM, David Scott said:

The best evidence I can offer is from the Prisoner of Azkaban:

Quote

Buckbeak is guided by Harry towards Professor Flitwick's office. He hovers by the window, held steady by Harry, as Sirius Black climbs onto his back as well. 

A very good example, thanks.

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9 hours ago, Monty Lovering said:

...

There's no point in treating hippogriffs, griffons, dragons, etc. flying as an exercise in physics. Handwavium, or hippogriff wingwavium rules.

THIS.

So much this!
Physics explicitly doesn't work in Glorantha... cannot work in Glorantha.  Rmember that in the Dragonrise, the dragon was MILES long.

 

Calculate the lift & mobility for THAT.

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5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The "Falling Damage" table on page 156 proves this wrong.  As does the way impact bonuses work.  And much more.

There's acceleration on a fall, and something like momentum.

But F = Gmm / r^2    ???   I don't think so.

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16 hours ago, g33k said:

THIS.

So much this!
Physics explicitly doesn't work in Glorantha... cannot work in Glorantha.  Rmember that in the Dragonrise, the dragon was MILES long.

 

Calculate the lift & mobility for THAT.

I have an easy solution for that. The dragon was miles long because it miniaturized its environs, entering legendary or greater god scale. The one where Dragon Pass represents Ernalda's hearth, with the Kitchen etc.

The Black Serpent fought by Belintar whose death throes pulverized the Obsidian Palace, used pretty much the same transition, and when it died, all the stuff it had gathered up re-emerged as mundane rock and metal, creating the Lead Hills blocking the River. I suppose that in order to fight it, Belintar adjusted his size to that of the monster, and Esrola's throne. The third chapter of the Prince of Sartar webcomic hints at the divine dimensions of Belintar at rest, which are frigging ginormous. Little wonder that the mortal bodies are worn out in very short time.

This kind of assumption of heroic or supernatural stature is also shown in the "Big Man" feat of Morden's opponent in "Morden Defends The Camp", from the Hero Wars de-luxe box story collection, and presumably available on Daliath's Well of Wisdom.

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18 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The "Falling Damage" table on page 156 proves this wrong.  As does the way impact bonuses work.  And much more.

yes there is something to explain fall

but it cannot be our world physic

there is no gravity in glorantha as glorantha is not spheric at all so there is someting else

I asked what replace gravity few weeks ago.

Of course I m not able to find my post in the forum but @Jeff answered (sorry if I misremember, i m too old, sorry if I misunderstood, I m too french) that earth attracts things/beings with earth rune elements.

 

So in my opinion, you are a pure light being you never fall. But if you can burn, you have at least a portion of earth in you (the ashes)

That is why you need some air / light power to fly and oppose the earth attraction. It can be magic , it can be wings + energy, it can be elementals.

then to find any rule (I mean physics) you need to make a lot of measures, not here on earth, but there on glorantha to determine what is the force of earth (the "g"), what is the part of earth rune in every being (the "m"), if there is or not an acceleration, how you explain the dammage (if not acceleration), etc.. etc..

 

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In my Glorantha, the gods love real world physics -- the effects, if not the actual calculations.  They're enamored at how our physics so closely model the effects of their divine order.  They adore stall speeds, gravitational pull, tidal effects, molecular chemistry, etc.  Took them ages to get all that just right, and it's a marvel that our real world mirrors those effects on a sphere of all things, and apparently without demonstrable divine guidance.  It's rare that they go mucking up the divine order to suit the whims of mortals, and when they do it inevitably turns into a runic pissing match on high -- or on low, depending on the gods involved.

None of this, of course, is a surprise to the Mostali.

!i!

Edited by Ian Absentia
Language, good sir!
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