RQG sorcery & other magics (rant)

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

The Brithini hold that your ego is you. As your ego dies upon death, you are gone. Your spirit and other energies, etc., dissipates to wherever they are attuned to - but that's the shade of you, not you. Everything else is just sentimentality and Hallmark cards.

but... what happens when they die ?

Did they really dissappear as they believe, or did they see their mistake: their soul still exists for ever ? or maybe their soul exists but as they negate it, the soul is "washed" from any brithini knowledge (aka no int) and become magical spirit (to be bound in pc enchanted gear) ?

 

by the way, I found in HQ sartar companion, something about shaman after life (spirit versus soul, big issue I don't see the difference) like @JRE just noticed about western.

Is it still the case with rqg ? do we have some explanation about what is really (not gloranthan belief but gloranthan reality) after death in the cult books (or elsewhere) ?

"Death for dummies" you see, something allowing people like me with too few knowledge in spirituality, religion, etc ... to understand what I will find when I will open the gate

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but... what happens when they die ?

Did they really dissappear as they believe, or did they see their mistake: their soul still exists for ever ? or maybe their soul exists but as they negate it, the soul is "washed" from any brithini knowledge (aka no int) and become magical spirit (to be bound in pc enchanted gear) ?

 

by the way, I found in HQ sartar companion, something about shaman after life (spirit versus soul, big issue I don't see the difference) like @JRE just noticed about western.

Is it still the case with rqg ? do we have some explanation about what is really (not gloranthan belief but gloranthan reality) after death in the cult books (or elsewhere) ?

"Death for dummies" you see, something allowing people like me with too few knowledge in spirituality, religion, etc ... to understand what I will find when I will open the gate

I can easily say the Brithini view and the Orlanthi view are equally true interpretations of what happens when you die. It just depends on what you are saying is your essential "you".

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, JRE said:

Thanks for the clarification. My messiness (as a good thing*, if it was not clear from my West interest) came from a Lore auction (I think it was Sandy) claiming that Western souls did not go to the same place as Theists, and I actually think it ia a bonus if it cannot be proved whether the souls disappear, go to Solace or reincarnate. Ambiguity explains the many Malkioni sects. That would also make the Orlanthi concern about Meldeks more real, as if you convert your soul will be lost to your family forever.

*Fake religions and bad fantasy are neat and ordered. The real things are messy. confusing for outsiders and evolve to adapt to changing circumstances.

Remember, few people believe that there is only one soul. What we track as the existential Self depends on what we focus on.

[JRE]

It is a matter of semantics, but I would say most people believe in one soul, though it may have several parts, or if they believe in several souls, one is clearly the self.

When considering the afterlife in all religions I am aware of, you, the you that matters, only goes to one place (or nowhere), though this place varies widely, and may be several places sequentially.

Some Gloranthans do use a quartering of the soul to prevent ressurrection, return from the afterlife, or even your normal progression to the afterlife, but in all cases I know, the soul can be reassembled and in most cases brought back, maybe not alive as a mortal, but as a hero or patron spirit that preserves the original self.

[French Desperate WindChild]

18 minutes ago, JRE said:

I would say most people believe in one soul, though it may have several parts, or if they believe in several souls, one is clearly the self.

yep

but since I faced @Jeff nysalorian riddle, (aka my roll is  fumble 00) I m not sure of anything

 

my death for dummies was not a joke 🙂

a [soul] map explaining the differentes parts (and what part is what), then the view (what Brithini consider "you", etc..) of each culture

 

that's clearly not a criticism, I m very fine with this model (Brithini believe differently than Orlanthi, and both people are "right") just would like to understand the notions behind. It may be very clear for specialists, but for me... that's a mix of Subere and Dayzatar

 

[Frp]

On 5/18/2022 at 6:59 AM, JRE said:

whether your soul disappears (Brithini) 

Zzabur tells the Brithini what Solace, the soul, and the possibility of an afterlife, is. If you're an immortal Brithini would you want die, slowly, to see if he is mistaken?

On the other hand Zzabur's never died, so what does he know? But who's going to ask?

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Frp said:

Zzabur tells the Brithini what Solace, the soul, and the possibility of an afterlife, is. If you're an immortal Brithini would you want die, slowly, to see if he is mistaken?

On the other hand Zzabur's never died, so what does he know? But who's going to ask?

Zzabur says that the will, the ego, the self - all that is explainable in materialist terms as matter and energy. There is spirit and soul, and that is the energy source that powers the raw matter - the body. But when the body dies, the energy is NOT the self. And thus it is nonsense to talk about Solace or whatever. Sure maybe some of that energy goes to various places, but you are not that energy. 

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

On 5/20/2022 at 7:54 AM, Jeff said:

Zzabur says that the will, the ego, the self - all that is explainable in materialist terms as matter and energy. There is spirit and soul, and that is the energy source that powers the raw matter - the body. But when the body dies, the energy is NOT the self. And thus it is nonsense to talk about Solace or whatever. Sure maybe some of that energy goes to various places, but you are not that energy. 

May I ask wether I am right in understanding that some of the energy involved becomes a spirit in the court of Daka Fal even if they don’t practice ancestor worship? My understanding of ancestor spirits is that they retain a copy of the memories of the person they originated from is that correct? Do different cultures spirits divide up in different fashions?

[jajagappa]

39 minutes ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

My understanding of ancestor spirits is that they retain a copy of the memories of the person they originated from is that correct? Do different cultures spirits divide up in different fashions?

They don't necessarily retain memories.  

Different cultures divide the soul into different parts.  Dara Happa/Solar religion had 6.  Lunar religion has 7.  

[Qizilbashwoman]

On 5/21/2022 at 10:25 PM, jajagappa said:

They don't necessarily retain memories.  

Different cultures divide the soul into different parts.  Dara Happa/Solar religion had 6.  Lunar religion has 7.  

It also seems to be part of an expanding knowledge, because Theyalan religions taught five earlier on.

[David Scott]

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

It also seems to be part of an expanding knowledge, because Theyalan religions taught five earlier on.

Storm & Solar cultures are as old as each other, the 5 and the 6 souls have existed side by side in different regions. The 7th soul was the Red Goddesses's doing (but likely existed before in Dara Happa amongst a few).

Does a an Orlanthi in the Seven Mothers cult have 6 (5+1) or 7 (6+1) soul parts? 

[Qizilbashwoman]

54 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Does a an Orlanthi in the Seven Mothers cult have 6 (5+1) or 7 (6+1) soul parts? 

the brithini are immortal because they believe they are immortal if they obey the rules so idk man you're smarter than me

also someone said earlier in the thread that real world religions are messy as fuck and as a person who studied religion as a major, particularly late antiquity, I kind of like not knowing

Edited May 23, 2022 by Qizilbashwoman

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

the brithini are immortal because they believe they are immortal if they obey the rules so idk man you're smarter than me

also someone said earlier in the thread that real world religions are messy as fuck and as a person who studied religion as a major, particularly late antiquity, I kind of like not knowing

The number of souls we say a person has is really a matter of how a cult defines things. So with the Orlanthi we have:

• Darkness Soul (the individual’s shadow);
• Water Soul (blood and bodily fluids);
• Earth Soul (bones, tissues);
• Fire Soul (bodily heat); and
• Air Soul (the vital breath). 

The Orlanth cult says your vital breath is the essential you - and it, as magical Air, will return to Orlanth's Hall until it is carried down again by Orlanth's winds to return to the world. If you are a hero, part of it always exists there in Orlanth's Hall. 

Meanwhile, the Ernalda cult focuses on the bones and tissues that can be preserved and cared for within the Earth, where its magical essence resides with Ty Kora Tek.

And it is possible to meet the same dead soul in both the Lands of the Dead (Ty Kora Tek) and Storm Home or at the Four Winds or wherever. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

28 minutes ago, Jeff said:

And it is possible to meet the same dead soul in both the Lands of the Dead (Ty Kora Tek) and Storm Home or at the Four Winds or wherever. 

then, when you meet them (or their parts)  in the different places, do you have the same discussion  ? Do they all remember the same things, do they share the same passions ?

 

I mean, some Orpheus or Odysseus quests. What can you expect to find in the other world(s) ?

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

Storm & Solar cultures are as old as each other, the 5 and the 6 souls have existed side by side in different regions.

This calls for some nitpicking: Storm culture is significantly younger than Solar culture, but both contain an inheritance of Earth culture which precedes either.

The Theyalan identification of the five souls with the five elements (but more importantly the magical organs associated with those elements) obviously wouldn't be shared by Solar identification which sort of denies the elemental status of Storm.

On the other hand, the composition of the soul only began to matter mainly when Death brought about its decomposition into parts. Gramps Mortal may have left five parts, Yelm six parts, et voilà, we have a count of portions of the soul.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Theyalan identification of the five souls with the five elements (but more importantly the magical organs associated with those elements) obviously wouldn't be shared by Solar identification which sort of denies the elemental status of Storm.

there might not have been six souls before Storm appeared!

[Eff]

3 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

there might not have been six souls before Storm appeared!

And for that matter, there are clear elemental affiliations with these six souls- you have a physical shape made of clay, (Earth) and a set of genitals (either Water or Earth depending on how we read the serpentine connection there) and a shadow (Dark) and a vital force (Heat/Fire) and an intellect (Light/Sky) and a moral sense... which would also seem to be Light again, or perhaps a pure Sun which sits between Lodril and Dayzatar. But it's also possible it stands for something else, because the vital force, made by Lodril, a mixture of heaven and earth, could just as easily be a way to accommodate Air (another combination of heaven and earth) into the system, and then we have the familiar 5+1 numbering.

But what does that 7th oversoul/Buddha-nature/Moon Soul affiliate to, then? 

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

This calls for some nitpicking: Storm culture is significantly younger than Solar culture, but both contain an inheritance of Earth culture which precedes either.

The Theyalan identification of the five souls with the five elements (but more importantly the magical organs associated with those elements) obviously wouldn't be shared by Solar identification which sort of denies the elemental status of Storm.

On the other hand, the composition of the soul only began to matter mainly when Death brought about its decomposition into parts. Gramps Mortal may have left five parts, Yelm six parts, et voilà, we have a count of portions of the soul.

They are all as old as each other. Both have their roots in the First Age.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

then, when you meet them (or their parts)  in the different places, do you have the same discussion  ? Do they all remember the same things, do they share the same passions ?

 

I mean, some Orpheus or Odysseus quests. What can you expect to find in the other world(s) ?

How are you discussing with them? How are you meeting them? I mean they are dead after all. Are you wandering around the Hero Plane somewhere trying to find them? Did you critical a Love Family roll while visiting Orlanth's Hall on his high holy day? Is this the start of the Lightbringers Quest, when the ghosts show up? Are you hiring a Daka Fal priest to summon their spirit? What is going on?

Each approach to the dead is going to have a different result.

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

How are you discussing with them? How are you meeting them? I mean they are dead after all. Are you wandering around the Hero Plane somewhere trying to find them? Did you critical a Love Family roll while visiting Orlanth's Hall on his high holy day? Is this the start of the Lightbringers Quest, when the ghosts show up? Are you hiring a Daka Fal priest to summon their spirit? What is going on?

Each approach to the dead is going to have a different result.

I think you've just opened a can of worms.

What part of a soul does a Kolati get when they Summon Ancestors? Or An Earth Witch? Or Kargzant shaman? or KL?

[Tabor]

I would assume the Kargzant gets the bird, though a particularly tricky Other could use a summoning to worm their way back into the material plane.

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

there might not have been six souls before Storm appeared!

The creation of humans in Dara Happan myth has six contributions by six deities, IIRC. There is a possibility that the humans created by the Solar pantheon (including Murharzarm) came to be only after 30,000 YS, the birth of Umath, though, so your statement might be correct. (Not that "after" or "before" are absolutes in Godtime.)

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

They are all as old as each other. Both have their roots in the First Age.

In other words, these concepts have been around since the Dawn or before.

I was looking at the Godtime origins, where any metaphysical reality of Glorantha ought to be anchored.

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

How are you discussing with them? How are you meeting them? I mean they are dead after all. Are you wandering around the Hero Plane somewhere trying to find them? Did you critical a Love Family roll while visiting Orlanth's Hall on his high holy day? Is this the start of the Lightbringers Quest, when the ghosts show up? Are you hiring a Daka Fal priest to summon their spirit? What is going on?

Each approach to the dead is going to have a different result.

mmm in fact that is my question 🙂

the point is, how could a gm manage a meeting when the players succeed (have a acceptable idea) to meet them (or if gm considers it could help the players or just for flavour and narrative purpose)

 

so yes all your examples are possible

but you just opened another door : I had the idea of the "souls differences"  were based on their place (where do you meet). would the "how" explain the difference more than the "where"  ?

 

my idea would be they are all the "same" with only more influence/interest in something associated with the place where you meet them  (Air => battle, courage, lust; Sky => law, respect, ...; etc). So easier to obtain answer when the question is about the local focus.

but I may be wrong

[JRE]

It is probably just me, but I believe the so called humans before Dawn / Compromise are significantly different than the ones in the world of Time. Souls and the afterlife are one of the big changes from what Death did before Time, and a big part of the Compromise, so what used to happen earlier is not necessarily the right answer now.