Purchasing magical items?

[Akhôrahil]

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

What's the price for a javelin? And does it have bluetooth to justify those prices?

This goes perhaps even more so for shields - those prices are bonkers. I mean sure, you need planks, glue, leather and preferably a metal boss for a large wooden shield, but half a year's gross income for a Carl family for an item that's more or less expected to get worn out in a battle? And why would anyone in their right mind pay eight times as much for that as for a strictly better Large Wicker Shield?

Edited December 29, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This goes perhaps even more so for shields - those prices are bonkers. 

The lack of mechanical difference between the shield materials is indeed perplexing, I'm not sure what the designers had in mind there (there's a thread about it), but as for the prices, if weapons and armour are anything like, I don't know, computers and cars and musical instruments and headphones and pretty much anything else, then in reality the prices will vary widely. Unless stated otherwise, I treat any RPG prices as some kind of "base" price and allow buying anything from 5 times less to 10 times more. Then I get creative with the shittier or better stats (less HP or damage/protection, CHA penalties/bonuses, etc.)

[Brootse]

On 12/28/2020 at 8:59 AM, Joerg said:

Being a GM obsessed with such details, my interpretation would be that for each enchantment process - whether original or subsequent - the person performing the enchantment has to pour one point of POW into the enchantment. That person may bring in additional POW from their own magic, or they may use POW provided by volunteers.

Using your own mana is what is required to manifest this permanent (until destroyed) magic in the material world. People are pouring the fabric of their soul into this, then bind it off, separating the item from their own magical existence. Once separated this way, a new bit of that fabric needs to be poured into that item. While this happens, donations may use this connection between the enchanter and the item to contribute some of their own potential to manifest magic in this world. The successful enchantment then severs that connection - if it didn't, the death of any of the creators of / donors to the item would diminish the item in the way that MOB's Humakti Lottery Swords decay. No such effect has been observed for enchantments. In fact, the majority of enchantments worn by RQG characters would be heirlooms from past generations.

 

I sort of disagree with this notion. A destitute stickpicker will (barely) survive on zero L through the (possibly grudging) minimal support by their clan and whatever they can scrounge up.

These 50L are what is required to maintain the respectability of a free household. Bling showing off the status, (public) consumption of higher grade food, parading different items of clothing or adornments in social circumstances. A bit like having an I-phone that is no older than 2 or 3 years where an older model or one from a no-name manufacturer provides basically the same functionality.

 

I don't think that you can put a price to the housing, the rights to hunt and gather, the participation in clan and temple rites (and consumption of food sacrifices) that membership in a clan gives you.

 

Likewise, the price for a spear compared to the price for a sword doesn't compute unless the spear tip received the same amount of refinement as a sword blade does. In the end, you get a functional spear by hacking off a mostly straight branch or sapling, removing any branches (removing the bark is already optional) and crafting it to have a point. Given a piece of flint and a hammer stone, this entire process may be two hours of my time, with skills of "craft flint" or "use flint blade" in the single digit percentage. Looking for a suitable shaft in places where lumber is scarce will add to that time, so in Prax a spear shaft may be more valuable than the stone tip affixed to it.

(Biturian should really have carried spear shafts and axe handles, or maby just "raws", on two or three of his mules. Low investment - maybe a day's worth of a stickpicker's time for that load even if letting it rest for a winter under a shelter made from evergreen branches is added to the effort going into this, decent return. The stickpicker would in all likelihood strip those branches of the bast, which is used as material for cord or ropes, providing extra income while furthering the manufacturing process.)

Spear points affixed to the spear should be the price of the corresponding knife (which needs to be affixed to a grip, too). Good flint was traded almost the same way bronze was traded (except that it wasn't cast into oxhide bars). Pit mines for flint are older than permanent settlements, and there are places where the raw material only needs to be picked up. Taking a piece of flint and knapping it into a functional blade would be the equivalent of us starting up a computer. Okay, maybe our parents starting up a computer.

The bast I mentioned earlier can be one material used to affix a tip of a different material (stone, bone, horn, metal) to the shaft. You may want to use some sticky matter, possibly glue boiled out of bone or hooves, or pitch distilled from bark. That's some extra effort, but then producing this material would yield material for several such tasks.

The Schöningen spears (pre-glacial spears found less than 400 km south of where I live) are currently the oldest documented spears unearthed by archaeologists. Replicas were made of the same material and tested on ballistic gel and pork sides, and those replicas proved to penetrate several inches when thrown.

What's the price for a javelin? And does it have bluetooth to justify those prices?

 

In short, the price for a single spear as per the rules pays for the effort to produce enough spears for a small militia.

Yeah, re: spears, the javelin prices especially make no sense. And this is also one of the places where the Guide and RQG are at odds. In the Guide light infantry equipment is cheaper than heavy infantry equipment, but in RQG poor cottar skirmishers have to buy more expensive stuff than karls who fight in the shieldwall.

[Lordabdul]

6 hours ago, Brootse said:

the Guide and RQG are at odds

Are there prices in the Guide that I have missed? Or are you just talking about the general statements in the Guide about the different classes being assigned to different infantry types?

[Akhôrahil]

43 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Are there prices in the Guide that I have missed? Or are you just talking about the general statements in the Guide about the different classes being assigned to different infantry types?

I believe the argument is that by any standard it should cost more to equip a carl fyrdman (medium shield, composite helmet, spear) than a cottar skirmisher (several javelins, emergency light melee weapon). But javelins are so expensive that this doesn't hold true.

[Brootse]

14 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I believe the argument is that by any standard it should cost more to equip a carl fyrdman (medium shield, composite helmet, spear) than a cottar skirmisher (several javelins, emergency light melee weapon). But javelins are so expensive that this doesn't hold true.

Yeah, it's this.

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

it should cost more to equip a carl fyrdman (medium shield, composite helmet, spear) than a cottar skirmisher (several javelins, emergency light melee weapon)

Where do you see that cottar skirmishers have several javelins? Or any javelins for that matter?  I can't find it...

In fact, I wouldn't have expected cottar skirmishers to have javelins or even be trained in them. I thought they would just have a spear, axe, or sword, plus maybe a shield or helmet or such, and that's it. Checking on S:KoH, the only people mentioned to be trained in javelins are Mercenaries and Thanes.

Edited December 29, 2020 by lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

34 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Where do you see that cottar skirmishers have several javelins? Or any javelins for that matter?  I can't find it...

Javelins seem like they would be the most common missile weapon among Heortlings, and it's not like you can carry just one if you're a skirmisher. The only way to get truly cheap skirmisher equipment is if they're slingers (slings are garbage, but they are cheap...).

Edited December 29, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Brootse]

43 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Where do you see that cottar skirmishers have several javelins? Or any javelins for that matter?  I can't find it...

In fact, I wouldn't have expected cottar skirmishers to have javelins or even be trained in them. I thought they would just have a spear, axe, or sword, plus maybe a shield or helmet or such, and that's it. Checking on S:KoH, the only people mentioned to be trained in javelins are Mercenaries and Thanes.

Guide, RQG, KoDP, and every book about Sartar that I've ever read.

[Brootse]

17 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

(slings are garbage, but they are cheap...).

Yeah, I reverted back to sensible RQ3 sling rules.

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, Brootse said:

Guide, RQG, KoDP, and every book about Sartar that I've ever read.

Well I looked for "javelin" in the Guide and I didn't see anything.

In RQG's character creation rules, the people who get proper Javelin skill training are only in the "professional warrior" occupation (p71)... (and only a third of the light infantry, and a sixth of the cavalry, use javelins... but that's for character creation, and I don't think it's meant to represent actual army composition).

So that's why I was asking. I don't see any evidence that the militia formed by the general population (non thanes/carls) ever have javelins. The only hint is maybe the cultural +10% in Javelin but that's just general familiarity as far as I'm concerned.

Edited December 30, 2020 by lordabdul

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

In fact, I wouldn't have expected cottar skirmishers to have javelins or even be trained in them. I thought they would just have a spear, axe, or sword, plus maybe a shield or helmet or such, and that's it. Checking on S:KoH, the only people mentioned to be trained in javelins are Mercenaries and Thanes.

no sword, they are cottar, and how do they skirmish if they have only close combat weapon ?

they are cottars, not fighters, they are like enlo for uz, their roles is to reduce magic abilities from the other side, and if they die, don't care, they are not in the ring, they can be replaced

[Lordabdul]

15 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

no sword, they are cottar, and how do they skirmish if they have only close combat weapon ?

Ah yes, my apologies: I found appropriate sections in S:KoH that I had missed before. It is frankly the only book that gives enough details on the topic (this material will probably be in the upcoming Sartar Homeland book though). They seem to put bows, slings, javelins, and thrusting spears on the same level, being all common gear for skirmishers, with the last two also being common gear for the fyrd militia. The RQG character creation rules are a bit more lax, since a farmer can pick any cultural weapon, and can therefore be wielding an axe or sword.

So anyway, the subset of fyrd militia and skirmishers who have javelins instead of short spears (or anything else) benefit from higher ranged weapon damage. Personal wealth is irrelevant since the clan equips these people, so I guess you'd find wealthier clans with larger numbers of javelin-equipped people, and poorer clans with either shittier javelins (lower some stats) or short spears. I would also have no issue if someone rules the javelin's price as a typo and made its base cost to be, say, 25L.

Edited December 31, 2020 by lordabdul

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Personal wealth is irrelevant since the clan equips these people

that is a key point I didn't notice, but for sure, the clan can equip poor cannon fodder

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

The RQG character creation rules are a bit more lax, since a farmer can pick any cultural weapon, and can therefore be wielding an axe or sword.

The Sartarite farmers (and other occupations) are members of a warrior culture, and odds are high that some "ancestor" (unmarried aunt or uncle, whatever) brought home a weapon you would not expect in the militia if your household is not destitute (which may mean that desperation can outweigh pride and such things are sold or pawned off).

 

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

So anyway, the subset of fyrd militia and skirmishers who have javelins instead of short spears (or anything else) benefit from higher ranged weapon damage. Personal wealth is irrelevant since the clan equips these people,

Is that so? In a warband, leaders may distribute weapons or other tools of the trade to their followers. On the other hand, the description for the criterion to vote in a tribal moot in King of Sartar seems to be possession of a warrior's implements (however temporary a possession).

 

 

Athens had a plutocratic assignment of status - if you could afford to field and maintain a hoplite armor, then you had the prestige, duties and influence of a hoplite citizen.

 

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

so I guess you'd find wealthier clans with larger numbers of javelin-equipped people, and poorer clans with either shittier javelins (lower some stats) or short spears. I would also have no issue if someone rules the javelin's price as a typo and made its base cost to be, say, 25L.

If there are young or coppiced trees around and the javelineer owns a decently sized knife or an axe he won't run out of ammunition easily. Point quality may vary, but even a timber only spear will wound animals that have a 2-point skin or fur in the Bestiary. At least on an impale (but then the difference between an impale and a normal high damage success is that removing the missile doesn't damage you any more than you already have been damaged).

Crafting and affixing points may take a little more time, effort and costly material, although stone blades can be knapped by a somewhat experienced knapper in reasonable time, bone or horn points can be carved from suitable material, and getting some sinews from butchered sacrifices or beasts you brought down with other javelins on the hunt shouldn't be that hard, either.

My personal experience is with arrow points rather than spear points, but my experience is that as long as you can recover your missile, even if the shaft may be broken, a metal point will be salvageable, at least for recovery of the metal. A bent bronze point may be hammered back into shape, or in the worst case melted as scrap metal.

No idea whether the concept of the Roman pilum as a missile that cannot be picked up and thrown back because the point is bent beyond immediate reuse upon impact on a shield is part of Gloranthan equipment. On the other hand, nothing a field smithy can't straighten again.

Stone blades may very well be one-use items when penetrating something hard or impacting on hard things (like bones).  But then, there is also an archaeological record of metal points embedded in bone.

Thrown javelins don't usually need to be adjusted for hardness - the thrower grabs them in the center of balance, which usually also is the stable point in it vibration. That requirement changes when you use an atlatl or similar device to enlarge your throw radius, as now you exert all the force on the end of the shaft, bending it in a different way - the same way an arrow thrown by a bow gets bent into a half wave upon release. Now you have to fiddle with tensile strength of your missile and possibly add guiding fletching to the spear, and yes, you get a high tech missile that may take a craftsman a day or so to create. (Or more likely, a dozen such missiles that took the craftsman two weeks to produce, including all the preparatory steps.)

 

 

If javelins and arrows sod a the prices in the rules book, picking a battle site for salvageable ammo (alongside salvageable equipment dropped or removed from casualties) should be a major industry. I guess that Glorantha will have its share of Nobbys (certified human) or Thenardiers (if you know Les Miserables).

As battlefield archaeology proves, the salvage endeavors of such vultures are rarely complete.

 

On the topic of salvage, and somewhat returning to the topic of the thread - what are the chances for losing magical stuff in the heat of battle, and for recovering such stuff? I imagine that Narmeed Whirlvishbane wouldn't spare any effort to reclaim those iron arrowheads he received from Biturian for his wedding. Quite possibly he went to Pavis and bought a "Detect Iron" spell, if not for himself then for a trusted follower.

RQG character generation has a decent chance to provide your adventurer with a magical heirloom, whether a dead crystal or an enchantment. These things must get lost, or taken away upon capture, quite a lot. If they have a restriction of user condition on them, they are likely to be ransomed back to someone who can actually use the item, or such a person might assist in an enchantment process that adds another restriction or exemption from restriction to that item.

What are your thoughts on expanding user conditions? On adding exemptions from user conditions? And how would that play into the price of an enchanted item that needs such an "attunement" to its future owner?

 

Another thought on missiles:

Many GMs like to create scarcity situations for players when it comes to long distance combat instruments, whether missiles or magic. There is a lot less heroism in sniping, and even less in saturation missile attacks, and it makes it harder for the PCs to have a chance to survive heroism in melee attacks under missile saturation situations or sniper coverage, too, when the opposition uses such tactics, unless you allow a weapon's race where those melee tanks can soak up any damage thrown at them without breaking skin very much, and that healed faster than the follow-up attack. 

[Kloster]

46 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What are your thoughts on expanding user conditions?

I think it is forbidden RAW.

46 minutes ago, Joerg said:

On adding exemptions from user conditions?

At enchantment creation, it is 'simply' using complex restrictions (like only Colymar tribe members, except members of such clan, and adding all initiates of Barntar cult). Later, not possible.

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Sartarite farmers (and other occupations) are members of a warrior culture, and odds are high that some "ancestor" (unmarried aunt or uncle, whatever) brought home a weapon you would not expect in the militia if your household is not destitute (which may mean that desperation can outweigh pride and such things are sold or pawned off).

It's also simply possible that RQG allows to pick any weapon because different clans have different "traditional" weapons.... and that if you're into roleplaying clan traditions, you would establish that this or that clan is more into axes or into spears, and then choose accordingly (although of course you could make an outlier).

Quote

Is that so? In a warband, leaders may distribute weapons or other tools of the trade to their followers. On the other hand, the description for the criterion to vote in a tribal moot in King of Sartar seems to be possession of a warrior's implements (however temporary a possession).

It may actually be a circular requirement... as in: you get a vote if you have warrior gear. And you have warrior gear if you were given it by the chieftain (because you're not a thrall, not out of favour, and so on). So maybe that requirement is an easier way to gather up multiple other requirements? Of course, that would mean that an unpopular but wealthy clan member would get a vote by buying his own gear even if the chieftain confiscated his clan-issued gear... although I'm not even sure if chieftains are known to confiscate gear... that is clearly off-topic for this thread...

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If there are young or coppiced trees around and the javelineer owns a decently sized knife or an axe he won't run out of ammunition easily. Point quality may vary, but even a timber only spear will wound animals that have a 2-point skin or fur in the Bestiary. At least on an impale (but then the difference between an impale and a normal high damage success is that removing the missile doesn't damage you any more than you already have been damaged).

That would go under the "shittier javelins" I mentioned before, where you don't have a metal point (or a bad quality one), for a bit less damage, for example. Thankfully, you can still enchant them.

Quote

My personal experience is with arrow points rather than spear points, but my experience is that as long as you can recover your missile, even if the shaft may be broken, a metal point will be salvageable, at least for recovery of the metal. A bent bronze point may be hammered back into shape, or in the worst case melted as scrap metal.

I wonder how much you can recover from a battle -- the winner may be able to recover most of it, and the loser adds the loss of projectile weapons to their long list of losses? Another off-topic thing... maybe we should make a new thread on missile weapons...

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by lordabdul

[Kloster]

27 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I wonder how much you can recover from a battle

A lot ... with 'Detect Bronze' (TM). Of course, you need to be alive (Stayin' alive)! But the winner should be able to retrieve at least 50% and the loser 25%.

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

A lot ... with 'Detect Bronze' (TM). Of course, you need to be alive (Stayin' alive)! But the winner should be able to retrieve at least 50% and the loser 25%.

I didn't mean it as "how do you find the pieces on the battleground?", but more as "how does the loser even get back to the battleground, given that they probably retreated, and the battleground is most likely now under the control of the winner?".

Edited December 31, 2020 by lordabdul

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

It may actually be a circular requirement... as in: you get a vote if you have warrior gear. And you have warrior gear if you were given it by the chieftain (because you're not a thrall, not out of favour, and so on). So maybe that requirement is an easier way to gather up multiple other requirements? Of course, that would mean that an unpopular but wealthy clan member would get a vote by buying his own gear even if the chieftain confiscated his clan-issued gear... although I'm not even sure if chieftains are known to confiscate gear... that is clearly off-topic for this thread...

 

 

I would imagine that there may be situations in which voting rights get moved around the community, as the arms get moved around.

In a similar way, the unpopular but wealthy can stack the votes by buying multiple weapons and handing them out in return for those voting rights. (and if the recipient is lucky enough, they can pick up a sword and some armour - or at least enough trade goods to purchase - and have their very own sword without the attached strings)

[Kloster]

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I didn't mean it as "how do you find the pieces on the battleground?", but more as "how does the loser even get back to the battleground, given that they probably retreated, and the battleground is most likely now under the control of the winner?".

With detect Bronze, I said 50% for winner and max 25% for loser (because it is fast and don't require a lot of time). Without magical help, I would say max 25% to 30% for the winner and 0% to 5% for the loser (they don't have the time, nor the human resources, nor the terrain mastery).

[soltakss]

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I didn't mean it as "how do you find the pieces on the battleground?", but more as "how does the loser even get back to the battleground, given that they probably retreated, and the battleground is most likely now under the control of the winner?".

In the real world, people were given the chance to retrieve the dead from the battlefield. There were groups of people whose job was to collect armour and weapons from the fallen.

So, the rules of war probably allow you to do that.

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

In the real world, people were given the chance to retrieve the dead from the battlefield. There were groups of people whose job was to collect armour and weapons from the fallen.

So, the rules of war probably allow you to do that.

Ah interesting, that's what I was wondering. Thanks! (we can now resume our regularly scheduled magical item discussion)

Edited January 1, 2021 by lordabdul

[Shiningbrow]

Just on the topic of getting NPCs to donate their POW - what would the actual player (PC) say to them? I don't think it should be as meta-gamey as "I'd like you to give me some of your POW"...

[coffeemancer]

On 1/1/2021 at 1:50 PM, soltakss said:

In the real world, people were given the chance to retrieve the dead from the battlefield. There were groups of people whose job was to collect armour and weapons from the fallen.

So, the rules of war probably allow you to do that.

sounds like something from modern times. In ye olden days the loser would recieve their dead naked or in their undershirts as even clothing was valuable as loot.

Also consider that returning any gear to the enemy can needlessly prolong the war