Slightly Odd Question: Children of Gods

[Nevermet]

After a long hiatus, I'm trying to get back in the groove of writing about Maniria. So, to do that, I have a lot of strange questions, mostly related to me trying to map out the mythical and cosmological geography of Maniria. In that vein: here is my first question: 

Am I correct in thinking that if someone is a literal, non-metaphorical child of a god or goddess in Glorantha, this means they were likely born before the Dawn?  Who are the exceptions to this rule, if any?

 

Reason I am asking: A central figure in 1st Age Maniria is Kaxtor, who is stated to be the son of the hero Fodalor and Esrolia.  It appears that this is framed as a factual statement, rather than an honourific.  Assuming that is true, it is important to know if this means Kaxtor was born before time, since it would mean that both he and his father were both borderline immortal when the Bright Empire arrived.

 

I don't actually have much of a preference on this issue, but I'd like clarification so I can continue to construct my history.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Nevermet

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

After a long hiatus, I'm trying to get back in the groove of writing about Maniria. So, to do that, I have a lot of strange questions, mostly related to me trying to map out the mythical and cosmological geography of Maniria. In that vein: here is my first question: 

Am I correct in thinking that if someone is a literal, non-metaphorical child of a god or goddess in Glorantha, this means they were likely born before the Dawn?  Who are the exceptions to this rule, if any?

 

Reason I am asking: A central figure in 1st Age Maniria is Kaxtor, who is stated to be the son of the hero Fodalor and Esrolia.  It appears that this is framed as a factual statement, rather than an honourific.  Assuming that is true, it is important to know if this means Kaxtor was born before time, since it would mean that both he and his father were both borderline immortal when the Bright Empire arrived.

 

I don't actually have much of a preference on this issue, but I'd like clarification so I can continue to construct my history.

Off the top of my head... How about Talor the Laughing Warrior?  Son of Arkat (Humaktson?).  His dad became a god within time.  Then there is Jaldon Toothmaker, who is one of the many children of Androgeous, who is at least a demi-god.  Pavis became a god, but he definitely had a family, not that they were particularly famous. 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

who is stated to be the son of the hero Fodalor and Esrolia.  It appears that this is framed as a factual statement, rather than an honourific.

Could be the result of a Heroquest.  Or "Esrolia" in this case could be her primary avatar/highest priestess.

Can't think of specific examples of other deities giving birth within Time at the moment though.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

Am I correct in thinking that if someone is a literal, non-metaphorical child of a god or goddess in Glorantha, this means they were likely born before the Dawn?  Who are the exceptions to this rule, if any?

These are great questions. I suspect that part of the process of what makes divine heritage "literal, non-metaphorical" is establishing that you were always already there in some form in the pre-time. This might mean questing back and recognizing yourself in the mythic landscape, then bringing back evidence. It might also mean having this done on your behalf. Those who disbelieve will simply discount the claim as metaphorical, as when people bicker over who Arkat's real father was.

Ylream Serpent King was born in time to a bona fide goddess and IMG Damol really is the storm god's child. There are others.  

EDIT also people who become gods within time often leave dynasties behind, i.e., the line of Sartar, a man who became a god. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by scott-martin

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

56 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

EDIT also people who become gods within time often leave dynasties behind, i.e., the line of Sartar, a man who became a god. 

Not to mention many Lunars, starting with the Red Emperor.

[John Biles]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Off the top of my head... How about Talor the Laughing Warrior?  Son of Arkat (Humaktson?).  His dad became a god within time.  Then there is Jaldon Toothmaker, who is one of the many children of Androgeous, who is at least a demi-god.  Pavis became a god, but he definitely had a family, not that they were particularly famous. 

Wait, Jaldon is the child of Androgeous???

Where was that established?

[Nevermet]

The idea of heroquests intrigues me, as do the idea of a High Priestess acting as Esrola.

And yeah, the rules seem to be a bit different for an apotheosized human, or a demigod who continued to be active after the Dawn.

 

For my specific case, the information is extremely scarce.  Mostly, I'm ok with that, because it means I get to have Opinions(tm).  However, as a hermeneutrical strategy I want to know how much I am being faithful to "canon" so deviations can be very intentional.

 

Here's what we know:

• By 200, the kingdom of Herolal was the dominant force on coastal Maniria.
• In 315, it's "Greatest Champion", Fodalor, is exiled over a feud with the King.
• Sometime between 315 & 429, a temple complex is built named Kaxtorplose
  • This is named after Kaxtor, son of Fodalor and Esrola
• By the 3rd Age, the residents of Kaxtorplose view Kaxtor as an avatar of the Invisible God

And that's it.  Guide to Glorantha, the Stafford Library, Blood over Gold.... I current have no other "cannonical" or "semi-canonical" information about either Fodalor or Kaxtor.

 

Based on that, here are my safe assumptions / interpretations:

• Fodalor was some sort of Orlanthi, broadly defined.  Entruling, Theyalan, etc.
• Fodalor was very powerful, but not king for some reason
• Two of the few things we know about Kaxtor are that he's a son of Esrola, and the walls around his temple kept Pelangio out.

 

I have a lot of half-formed thoughts, and some of them will click together once I get this question either answered or I decide to assert an answer.

[Leingod]

Not sure how useful it is, but I've recently been interested in the Garanvuli, and within Time you had something kind of relevant to this question in the birth of Dinorth Garansson (247-298). He was born well past the Dawn, which The Book of Heortling Mythology says happened thusly:

Quote

Garan’s beloved had been captured by the enemy god, Red Fury, who hated Garan for deserting him in the Gods War. Red Fury kidnapped his love, and devoured her, and cast her soul into a place that he knew of where she would suffer. Thus she was reborn as a human, and Garan recognized her and came to earth again as falling fire. Their child was Dinorth the Great.

So this might be something similar, where something caused Esrola to incarnate in human form to have Kaxtor.

[Nevermet]

Thanks for that.  Hmm... I will need to think about that

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Am I correct in thinking that if someone is a literal, non-metaphorical child of a god or goddess in Glorantha, this means they were likely born before the Dawn?  Who are the exceptions to this rule, if any?

Most children of deities were born in God Time.

However, there are exceptions, for example:

• Hon-Eel HeroQuested to join the Watchers and gave birth to Star Twins, children of Yelm.
• In the same contest, her rival gave birth to a daughter of another star god (Kargzant?)

 

[metcalph]

9 hours ago, John Biles said:

Wait, Jaldon is the child of Androgeous???

Where was that established?

Androgeus has a child named Goldtooth (Guide p642).  Not yet established whether this is Jaldon or not AFAIK.

[Joerg]

Plenty of examples are available. Arim mated with Sorana Tor, and his children were thus demigods. Kallyr quested to the Pole Star, received her Starbrow, and became mother of a demigod son. Arkat was born during the Sunstop, allegedly to Humakt and a Brithini woman.

Balazar's children from Rigtaina became dynastic ancestors for the three citadels.

Whether or how far the mortal parent has to go into the Other Side may depend on the stature and manifestation of the deity in question. Also, whether the birth has to take place on the Other Side (or, in Arkat's case, the timelessness of the Sunstop).

[John Biles]

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Androgeus has a child named Goldtooth (Guide p642).  Not yet established whether this is Jaldon or not AFAIK.

I had thought Androgeus was not around until the Third Age, but I yield to your knowledge.

Huh.

[jajagappa]

6 minutes ago, John Biles said:

I had thought Androgeus was not around until the Third Age, but I yield to your knowledge.

GSB p.209 (was originally in WBRM): Androgeus came to Glorantha during the Great Darkness when the world was turned upside down and he did her best to turn the world from Darkness, using methods of war and love to achieve her ends. His travels covered three continents, and she even walked the upper slopes of the Spike before it crumbled into sand and pearls. During the Gods Time, he mothered five children and fathered four, and managed to save thousands of mortals from Death.
Her children are too many to name, but five are wellknown: the Preserver, the Twisted Horse, Goldtooth, Wily Joker, and Yellow Bear. The agonies which they inflicted upon mortals since the Dawn are hideous and innumerable. His actions resulted in her baneful attachment to this world by a web of grievances, vengeance, debts, and a mystic link between Time and the Gods Time. As a result, he has become the eternal servant of suffering people.
During Time, Androgeus has appeared in almost every region of the Middle World. She has died many times, but he has always been reborn. She appears without warning, and he departs without farewells. Androgeus is destined to play a role in the forthcoming Hero Wars.

[Nevermet]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

During Time, Androgeus has appeared in almost every region of the Middle World. She has died many times, but he has always been reborn. She appears without warning, and he departs without farewells. Androgeus is destined to play a role in the forthcoming Hero Wars.

Completely unrelated to my original question, but is Androgeus associated with Jernotia?

[Nevermet]

Thanks, this thread has been extremely helpful to me.

 

For various reasons, I feel it fits better for Fodalor to have some sort of heroquest that results in the birth of Kaxtor.  but thats IMG, YGMV, etc, etc, etc.

[Nevermet]

This, of course, gets weird, because heroquesting wasn't "invented" yet.

However, I am quite sure that many heroes in the 1st age had disturbing dreams or fantastical adventures that Could Not Be or religious rites that became "extra".

[jajagappa]

40 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

but is Androgeus associated with Jernotia?

Not to my knowledge.  Sandy Petersen used to provide a theory about the "superheroes" of Glorantha (i.e. Androgeus, Jar-eel, Harrek, Elamle, Arkat, and maybe there were a couple others).  They were not gods, but they had so mastered a particular Rune that they had gained the Infinity Rune in association with it.  Thus, there was only one superhero per Rune.  Jar-eel was the Harmony Rune, Elamle the Life Rune, and Androgeus was the Man Rune.  Because of Androgeus' affinity to that Rune, she could take on any aspect of the Man Rune, so he could father or mother children, etc. 

[Hijabg]

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

because heroquesting wasn't "invented" yet.

Nothing is invented.

Everything is discovered.

[Nevermet]

1 hour ago, Hijabg said:

Nothing is invented.

Everything is discovered.

Human beings since the Dawn have been very creative in how they understand, organize, and re-organize myths and magical forces to apply them to their immediate situation.  Glorantha is a world is with a relatively stable cosmological infrastructure, and people can invent more applications the more of those infrastructures we understand.  Heroquesting is an application of knowledge of how myth works and breaks into the world of time.  Consequently, I think we can talk about both discovery and invention in Glorantha.

 

It occurs to me that my wording here is very Malkioni, but I wouldn't say it's wrong, and I suspect other approaches to myth & magic would say similar things.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Nevermet

[Lordabdul]

My short naive two cents are:

• People who have parents who went on to become gods are just normal people, unless they were sired after their parent became a god (but that's hard since they generally disappear from the mundane world at that point). But surely the wheels of fate have something in reserve for them.
• A woman could heroquest into the God Time, get pregnant from a god/goddess/creature/whatever (the God Time is weird like this), and come back to the mundane world, giving birth to a demi-god. Heck, maybe a man could even do it, coming back from the God Time with a baby in his arms.

Edited March 11, 2021 by lordabdul

[Scorus]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Kallyr quested to the Pole Star, received her Starbrow, and became mother of a demigod son.

Who is Kallyr's son?

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

A woman could heroquest into the God Time, get pregnant from a god/goddess/creature/whatever (the God Time is weird like this), and come back to the mundane world, giving birth to a demi-god. Heck, maybe a man could even do it, coming back from the God Time with a baby in his arms.

Feast of Beasts from SKoH!  Everyone's partially in the God Time, you've got at least lesser gods and goddesses wandering around...  One of the PC's in my Orlmarth game is now expecting as a result. 

[scott-martin]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

get pregnant

Pikat Yaraboom
Yolanela keeps trying.

[Nevermet]

I am now writing up my notes on Kaxtor & Kaxtorplose.

If I'm lucky, I'll be done with it this weekend, and I'll post it as a new Manirian Scratchpad.