Tricksters in Orlanthi society; How to make them playable. lol

[JonL]

As a semi-related aside, I love than Lanbril is so sneaky that his name only appears in the Guide once, and it's not even on the list of gods. Just enough presence to establish his continued existence in the setting, but not one word more.

I like to think that Lanbril's followers have their own versions of other gods' myths where some side character (charioteer, minion, bearer, healer, advisor, guide, etc.) to the main god or hero was in fact Lanbril in disguise, using whatever the central conflict of the myth is as cover to make off with some choice loot (especially things that might otherwise be thought to be destroyed or lost-forever in the less-informed version of the tale). I bet they smuggled the tech behind Whumpers and such out of The Fall of Zistorwal by heroquesting to it as Mostali who confiscate contraband items to keep them from falling into the wrong hands.

[JonL]

I now imagine an Illuminated Lanbril Ring in Safelster infiltrating various Arkati sects to cross reference their lore in ways that God Learners would envy, all to facilitate heist heroquests.

Edited September 28, 2021 by JonL

[Alex]

1 hour ago, JonL said:

As a semi-related aside, I love than Lanbril is so sneaky that his name only appears in the Guide once, and it's not even on the list of gods. Just enough presence to establish his continued existence in the setting, but not one word more.

Lanbril be like:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jYoagXmZE

[Baron Wulfraed]

On 9/27/2021 at 5:15 PM, Alex said:

The shrine of Eurmal the Scientist.  "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be research.  Woop-woop-woop!"  "The operation was a complete success -- the patient died.  Honk-honk."  "Within the limits of experimental error, results are consistent with our hypothesis that an acceptable number of people were killed!  Nyack-nyack."

I know I have a bad habit of making references to MLP:FiM, and this time it will be to a fan-fic: https://www.fimfiction.net/story/426477/the-potion-shop Cross your "Eurmal the Scientist" with Arca from that story, and toss in some Coyote-style mishaps.

22 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It's worth mentioning that Loki once attached his ballsack to the beard of a goat and played tug of war with it in order to make a goddess laugh.

I just wanted to add that, since Loki isn't always the diabolical mastermind he's portrayed as in pop culture.

I wonder which was more uncomfortable -- tug-of-war with the goat, or transforming into a mare to lure away a stallion (thereby causing the entity doing some rebuilding for Asgard to lose a bet on completion time) and having to stay in mare form for a year -- finally showing up to present eight-legged Sleipnir to Odin.

[Jeff]

On 4/10/2021 at 12:20 PM, skulldixon said:

So I get that Tricksters are frowned upon in Orlanthi society, and for good reason and that for the most part they are killed unless they are bound to an Orlanth Rune Master - who takes on the responsibility for the Trickster's actions. I get all of that. In my current game we have one Trickster whose main trickster trait isn't stealing but is a con man whose long term goal is to be the man behind the curtain who is pulling the strings. He has some loft goals, in my mind. Currently, no one knows that he is a trickster - so until he is discovered the orlanth binding hasn't happened yet.

But there is a lot of aspects to a none exposed trickster or even a bonded trickster living in Orlanthi society that I am trying to warp my head around still.

For instance, There is a Eurmal Shrine in every Lightbringer temple. I assume that these still follow the same rules of any other shrine and require at least one Rune Priest to maintain the shrine. If this is the case, if this was runegate, would the popluation of Runegate know who the person Eurmal Rune Priest was? I guess what i'm trying to get at is how open is the worship Eurmal. Is it like a known secret, for instance?

Granted, I assume some people will offer worship Eurmal, lay member, in order to dissuade disorder or trickery taking root in their day to day lives.

This is not my view at all.

Eurmal is recognised by the Orlanthi as an important god, and his followers are protected - as long as they remain within their proscribed role. The one exception is when a public scapegoat is needed - then Eurmal is blamed and the Clown is outlawed or driven out of town. When a Trickster swears loyalty to an Orlanth cultist, they gain additional protection (and the Orlanthi becomes liable for the acts of that Trickster), but are subject to that Orlanthi.

SOCIAL/POLITICAL POSITION AND POWER

In Orlanthi society, Tricksters form a sort of clown society. They are contrarians, jesters, and satirists, who can violate social constraints freely. These clowns both show what is wrong with the way things are and also how to do ordinary things the wrong way. Paradoxically, by violating these norms and taboos, they help define acceptable boundaries. 

In other societies, Tricksters are typically outlawed.

No one would be caught dead seeking a trickster for social support, advice, or political power. Even among their own kind, famous or powerful tricksters are likelier to be the butts of practical jokes than objects of respect. Any influence possessed by the Trickster cult derives from actions and pranks aimed at satirizing or mocking foolish or ridiculous acts on the part of rulers.

Tricksters are not trusted by anyone. They are not well liked and are tolerated only when necessary (as in Orlanth’s case). Tricksters are ill mannered, gluttonous, and selfish in every way. No sane society supports such misfits.

CLOWNS

A social oddity and convenience for the Orlanthi, Clowns are Tricksters and, as such, can get away with almost any social disruption and trouble because of the useful functions they provide through showing what is serious, absurd, baffling, or wrong, fearful or comical about life and the cosmos. The Orlanthi recognize this as powerful magic that both disrupts and helps to maintain the cosmos.

Another function of the Clown is that of public scapegoat, for whenever there is some official cause to find a person at fault the Clowns are the ones chosen. They may be outlawed, driven out of town, or (rarely) killed. 

Until they are used as scapegoats, Clowns can violate sacred laws freely while they carry out their ritual roles. However, Clowns are required to dress in special costume to enjoy this protection. Some initiates paint their body with black and white stripes, cover themselves with mud or filth, wear false phalluses, or simply wear their clothing backwards and inside out. 

Clowns sometimes appear—usually without invitation—at the ceremonies of other Orlanthi cults and mock them along with other attendees. At other public ceremonies, clowns may dance out of step, sing out of tune, and imitate cult and other societal leaders. They beg food, throw food away, or are gluttons. They even use magical regalia in inappropriate ways, engage in foolish, silly, or even obscene side-shows, often with respected members of the community.

[French Desperate WindChild]

Could a trickster be a serious man behind the eurmal mask ?

I mean there are two possibilities :

1) Once trickster (aka eurmali initiate or eurmal call or ... ) the mind of the trickster is in "disorder".  he does what et does because... he does (or because he follows an insane plan)

2) some tricksters could be sane, no madness, no "disorder" in their mind. But they are tricksters and they play their role. The only difference is, behind the mask, they are serious people, knowing why they do what they do, because that is their role, because it helps the world or their own interest

 

[Kloster]

I think both can and do exist.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

In Orlanthi society, Tricksters form a sort of clown society. They are contrarians, jesters, and satirists, who can violate social constraints freely. These clowns both show what is wrong with the way things are and also how to do ordinary things the wrong way. Paradoxically, by violating these norms and taboos, they help define acceptable boundaries. 

Putting on my clown hat (yes - I have worked as a clown, professionally, etc in Europe, China & Tanzania). This is how it really is. There is no difference in what Jeff has said here, than what i did when clowning. You really can get away with (nearly) everything, providing you do it as a clown. Most people are powerless to act, lest they become a laughing stock. Clowning is about being the clown and not a dick pretending to be the clown. As a clown you can get people to participate in the most ridiculous things. Little is premeditated (except any props you might use). Don't confuse clowning with red noses and giant shoes, circus clowning is a different show.

If most trickers are the Orlanthi clown society type, then everybody loves them (I mean who is ever going to admit they don't like fart jokes publicly when the clown is around). 

[Leingod]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

(I mean who is ever going to admit they don't like fart jokes publicly when the clown is around)

Whoever they are, they just volunteered to be the victim of every single one for the next week.

[EricW]

13 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Could a trickster be a serious man behind the eurmal mask ?

I mean there are two possibilities :

1) Once trickster (aka eurmali initiate or eurmal call or ... ) the mind of the trickster is in "disorder".  he does what et does because... he does (or because he follows an insane plan)

2) some tricksters could be sane, no madness, no "disorder" in their mind. But they are tricksters and they play their role. The only difference is, behind the mask, they are serious people, knowing why they do what they do, because that is their role, because it helps the world or their own interest

 

Ah, you're talking about the Church of Eurmal, Scientist.

Eurmal Scientists believe that since the entire world is an illusion, only by embracing the illusion rune can one hope to discover the path to ultimate truth.

They dress in robes, try to look serious all the time, and write angry pamphlets about how unfair it is that the ignorant followers of other knowledge gods do not take their faith seriously, and refuse to engage them in debates as fellow knowledge seekers.

They play pranks on each other at cult meetings via a formal rota, with a selected member ritually deploying a series of fart spells or other trickster pranks, while other members discuss the deeper meaning of what they are witnessing and experiencing.

Many outsiders are hostile to the cult, and allege it entraps vulnerable new members with deceptive group discussions and community events.

The Church of Eurmal, Scientist is widely  believed to have started when a trickster hero bet another lightbringer he could start a new religion, but members of the cult vehemently reject such offensive trivialisation of their sacred beliefs. Members claim their founder, Eh Wrong Cupboard, received his divine revelation while standing alone in the middle of a magical elven grove while performing an unspecified trickster ritual.

Edited September 30, 2021 by EricW

[Akhôrahil]

Apparently clowns can get shit done, at least some of the time - Jojo the Bobo and the Clown Army drove the Mad Sultanate out of Lakrene when no-on else could (D:LoD).

[Vizbillie]

There's this theoretical rendering of The Trickster that puts them into four different levels or tiers of power and behavior, grading from one to the other.

The first level is the bumbling fool.  This is a trickster whose jokes, japes, and tricks always get twisted from their intent, and fail and backfire on their originator. They cause themselves (and unlucky others) trouble. 

The second level is where the trickster has developed more power and skill, but the tricks are still somewhat disorderly:  They may be too weak, or two powerful;  Hit the right target or the wrong target;  twist out of control, or be too focused to have the intended effect.  And so on.

The third level of the trickster is one where they have grown full into their power, and they often set out to pay everyone back who slighted or wronged them on their journey.  The tricks work; though as always, collatoral damage may spray far and wide.

The fourth level of the trickster is the World Ruler.  Look around, all you see looks so random.

Mythically, you can look at different cultural trickster figures, and fit them into this sort of paradigm.  Most Gloranthan trickster worshippers would be in the first two categories.

[EricW]

On 11/7/2021 at 4:34 PM, Vizbillie said:

There's this theoretical rendering of The Trickster that puts them into four different levels or tiers of power and behavior, grading from one to the other.

…

The fourth level of the trickster is the World Ruler.  Look around, all you see looks so random.

Given Trickster’s role in EWF and likely other violations or near violations of the compromise I suspect any serious concentration of Trickster power is way too unstable and close to chaos to rule anything.
 

Look at what happened to the God Learners in Slontos, who built a great temple to Trickster. There is no rule against Tricksters attacking each other, so tricksters with access to an infinite range of divine spells would have wielded unimaginable destruction on each other, until the land itself gave way. At least that is my theory 😉

[skulldixon]

45 minutes ago, EricW said:

Given Trickster’s role in EWF and likely other violations or near violations of the compromise I suspect any serious concentration of Trickster power is way too unstable and close to chaos to rule anything.
 

Look at what happened to the God Learners in Slontos, who built a great temple to Trickster. There is no rule against Tricksters attacking each other, so tricksters with access to an infinite range of divine spells would have wielded unimaginable destruction on each other, until the land itself gave way. At least that is my theory 😉

A trickster being a trickster wouldn't causes any issues for the Compromise. Disorder is the foundational Rune that the Glorantha universe is built upon. The Compromise would be maintained by anything that a trickster does by the fact that their actions are apart of that compromise. 
 

Tricksters - Disorder is not Chaos. These are very much two different things. 

[EricW]

56 minutes ago, skulldixon said:

A trickster being a trickster wouldn't causes any issues for the Compromise. Disorder is the foundational Rune that the Glorantha universe is built upon. The Compromise would be maintained by anything that a trickster does by the fact that their actions are apart of that compromise. 
 

Tricksters - Disorder is not Chaos. These are very much two different things. 

I would argue the only reason Trickster doesn’t have a chaos rune is he agreed to help fix the mess he created when the joke goes too far.

Would the EWF Great Dragon project have broken the compromise? Likely. Trickster didn’t necessarily suggest the Great Dragon project but he gave mankind the tools to stuff up the world, by teaching them how to learn Auld Wormish.

Is Trickster chaos? Absolutely not. Do Trickster’s pranks sometimes lead to the compromise being threatened? Absolutely.

[skulldixon]

Ya... I think your mixing elements here. Dragons are also not Chaos. So learning Aulda Wyrmish isn't a chaotic act. 

Also as the Source book states, "Deep in the heart of Chaos the disorder stirred, and within its stirrings was formed
a sleeping egg. The egg hatched, and out crawled the Grand Ancestor Dragon."
-- Also --
"the Grand Ancestor took the Disorder Power that drove off the Chaos and held it at bay."

 

But yes, anyone can do something that puts strain on the compromise. The Lunar empire did when they rose a Goddess into the sky and placed her in the middle air. It was strained when Gbaji was born. You don't need either a Trickster or disorder to put strain on the Compromise. 

[Baron Wulfraed]

11 hours ago, skulldixon said:

The Compromise would be maintained by anything that a trickster does by the fact that their actions are apart of that compromise.

Please forgive this but...

Did you really mean "apart of" (separate from "... their actions are separate from that compromise") or "a part of" (a component of "... their actions are a component of that compromise")?

It makes a significant difference in how one should read that sentence.

[Alex]

30 minutes ago, skulldixon said:

Tricksters - Disorder is not Chaos. These are very much two different things. 

Eh, depends who you ask, I think.  Clearly in the Standard Model they're distinct things -- subcategory of thing, even!  So in crinkle-cut runic terms, this is a Big Obvs.

OTOH there are famous bits of lore like giants' tie to Disorder often being confused with Chaos...  including by themselves.

If you asked many people, including certain notorious chaos-fighting cults, disorder is the very best remedy for chaos!  Embodying the philosophy of fighting fire by whacking it vigorously with a frying pan, perhaps.

On the other other hand, if you ask the Solars, their take would be more like "it's the thin end of the wedge!"  A wedge that kinda goes Air (the source of all the trouble) -> Death -> Disorder -> the only-incrementally-worse state of Chaos, or something along those lines.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I see the relationship between tricksters and the compromise like the relationship between lawyers and contracts - laws :

they "see" the contract - law / compromise deficiences and play with it for their own purposes.

they may be good people or bad people. they may voluntary or not do good or bad things. But they see the ways other don't see to do what they do.

And they can claim that what was done was "compromise compliant".

that means not only breaching the compromise but saving the compromise too.

Don't know what could happen if Slontos was not destroyed. More chaos ? less chaos ? who can say except the only ones who see what other don't see

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

12 hours ago, EricW said:

Would the EWF Great Dragon project have broken the compromise? Likely. Trickster didn’t necessarily suggest the Great Dragon project but he gave mankind the tools to stuff up the world, by teaching them how to learn Auld Wormish.

 

Isn't the "Eurmal fooled people into speaking Auld Wyrmish" just a cultural stock explanation from the post-EWF Orlanthi? 

I'm not saying it's not true, in some sense, but we know there are other explanations (the Dragonewts planned it all along, rogue mystics acted on their own, a Kralorelan mystic was reborn in Dragon Pass and messed up) so I'm hesitant to take the Orlanthi explanation as absolute fact. It more seems like a way to basically say "The EWF was bad and the people leading it were delusional/mad". 

[skulldixon]

3 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Please forgive this but...

Did you really mean "apart of" (separate from "... their actions are separate from that compromise") or "a part of" (a component of "... their actions are a component of that compromise")?

It makes a significant difference in how one should read that sentence.

I wrote "A Part of" so I don't really know what the confusion is.

[Baron Wulfraed]

1 hour ago, skulldixon said:

I wrote "A Part of" so I don't really know what the confusion is.

Your original post begs to differ -- it reads (as I'd quoted it) "apart of" which is a completely different meaning in most english speaking zones.

[skulldixon]

2 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Your original post begs to differ -- it reads (as I'd quoted it) "apart of" which is a completely different meaning in most english speaking zones.

Ok. I see. ya, its a typo. I think in context it was obvious though.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Isn't the "Eurmal fooled people into speaking Auld Wyrmish" just a cultural stock explanation from the post-EWF Orlanthi? 

Anything bad or moderately irritating in the past: it's Eurmal's fault. (And there was in all likelihood a Eurmali in place when the thing happened.)

The first dusk? Guess who...

Nysalor eating and clawing himself out of the Black Eater's innards? Eurmal tricked the trolls into summoning the Black Eater, and tipped off Gbaji.

Lokamayadon's High Storm suppressing all worship of Orlanth? Eurmal showed him how.

Arkat retrieved from Hell by Harmast? There was a Eurmali in Harmast's party.

[skulldixon]

8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Anything bad or moderately irritating in the past: it's Eurmal's fault. (And there was in all likelihood a Eurmali in place when the thing happened.)

The first dusk? Guess who...

Nysalor eating and clawing himself out of the Black Eater's innards? Eurmal tricked the trolls into summoning the Black Eater, and tipped off Gbaji.

Lokamayadon's High Storm suppressing all worship of Orlanth? Eurmal showed him how.

Arkat retrieved from Hell by Harmast? There was a Eurmali in Harmast's party.

So that means that the Red Moon and Goddess are in the sky because of some Eurmal cultist.