Chalana Arroy, a question or two.

[Dragon]

58 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Chalana Arroy requires its members to swear an oath that is, frankly, crippling, if you take it literally.  I have enjoyed playing a crime lord (lady) Chalana Arroy who worked hard twisting the requirements of those rules, and so I know the arguments pretty well now, as my evil Chalana Arroy High Priestess Malicia of Horn Gate abused the interpretation of them well past breaking point, turning strict adherence to the oath into a political weapon that she used to get rivals ejected, censured, demoted, disciplined, fined, and even sent on involuntary hero quests (the death sentence).  There is no cult which needs a clarification as to its membership requirements as much as Chalana Arroy, as its open ended oath is almost impossible to follow in its present form.  Having utterly abused the system, I am arguing for reform as I am overly aware of its appalling weaknesses.

You 'utterly abused' the system because your GM allowed it. I do not take that as meaning the oath in any other GM's Glorantha has that same 'appalling weakness'.

Note I am not disparaging your GM at all. It was an interesting one-off scenario/world that I might consider with very experienced players. Likewise, a GM who wants to try running the CA oath as a straight jacket (e.g. the initiate can only eat leaves that easily allow the plant to recover, never the root or stalk; they must cast Healing or Mend Flesh on the plant afterward) would equally be an interesting one-off scenario/world. Heck in my Glorantha, a CA High Priestess was also the regional spy master and got found out by the Spoken Word - she was strictly the gathering information type of spy master.

But I would never consider the usual interpretation of the intent of that oath to be allowing such an evil CA to run rampant causing harm to others.

Thus, I find it hard to understand how you believe that because one GM allowed you to 'utterly abuse' the system, you are positive that every other GM in the world needs to buy into your view. YGMV is all that needs be said.

[Darius West]

On 1/6/2022 at 9:24 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

 @Darius West you surprised me with your examples (pregnancy, sex, etc...) I never faced this issue but for sure, if I were on the table and had to answer a player, I would need some time to imagine something.

Yeah, you wouldn't think superficially that pregnancy and sex could lead to harming a living thing, and obviously much depends on one's definition of 'harm', but the fact is, despite being acts of Life, they can and do involve harming a living thing. There are damn god reasons why babies cry when being born, and mothers too, and fathers. Ouch!  Of course it does explain why many Chalana Arroys spend their lives cloistered in their hospital temples and seldom set foot outside them.

On 1/6/2022 at 9:24 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

After thinking, the joker cards, as a white lady, you are blessed by your goddess : you and your baby (or partner, depending on what is the point) will not suffer or anything you imagine. The point is the intent (so it means no sadomasochism or activity like that)

Really?  This sounds suspiciously like immaculate conception, and I don't recall a rune-spell for that.  I think Xiola Umbar has Couvade, but that isn't available to CA.  Birthing is a  difficult, painful blood-soaked business that goes on for hours and involves a lot of screaming in agony.  I would be saving those RP for heal body spells in case you hemorrhage, and use herbal pain killers.  Chalana Arroy doesn't have spells that specify stopping the pain of pregnancy, only that they will try to make sure you don't die. 

As to Chalana Arroys and BDSM, certainly the harm no living creature requirement would preclude them, but a Chalana Arroy with such predilections could feasibly "do a Princess Peach" and keep getting captured by Bowser <insert antagonist here>.😈

On 1/6/2022 at 9:24 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

seems to me this kind of questions should be answered in this forum (issue with those who don't know the forum or english, of course), with modesty (" I manage it like that" and not "you must manage it like that")

I think it would be a better idea to spend a couple of paragraphs in the cult write-up to clarify what is okay and what isn't, and that this forum is an ideal place to thrash out the problems so that we don't end up with a perverse outcome that bears little resemblance to what the cult should be like.

I think that a Chalana Arroy has requirements to:

The purpose of the oath is to stop the evils of war and the harm it brings to all sentient creatures.  To this end...

1.  Never use weapons or magic to cause injury or death to any living creature.  2.  Pursue peaceful resolution to conflict where possible.  3.  Seek an apolitical and neutral stance so you may facilitate peaceful outcomes more easily.  4.  Don't deliberately kill any living thing except plants.  Learn Foodsong if you have the opportunity. 5. Hurting yourself doesn't break the oath as it relates to your behavior towards other creatures, not your behavior towards yourself.  6.  Using cutting implements and poisonous ingredients as tools of healing doe not break the oath, as they are invariably removing internal chaos from the patient's body.  7.  Animal products that involve the death of an animal are undesirable, and alternatives should be sought where such is a reasonable proposition. 8.  Laying mechanical traps is not allowed. 9. Your patient is a sacred trust.  If you place someone under your protection, you may defend them with your magic and even interpose your body between them and any harm, but you must not harm the attacker. 10. You are not obliged to heal people who have offended against you, but such pettiness demeans the calling of a healer. 11.  While the undead fall outside the technical parameters of the oath, you are not trained for combat, so fighting them is an undesirable outcome. 12.  Cure Chaos Wound now specifically removes broo impregnation. (RQG p325)  13.  Spirits fall outside the protection of your oath unless they have living bodies.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Darius West

[Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Really?  This sounds suspiciously like immaculate conception, and I don't recall a rune-spell for that.  I think Xiola Umbar has Couvade, but that isn't available to CA. 

Comfort Song. Not the same as Couvade. Covers the birthing part of the process, not the morning sickness and earlier parts as Couvade would.

[Darius West]

29 minutes ago, Dragon said:

You 'utterly abused' the system because your GM allowed it. I do not take that as meaning the oath in any other GM's Glorantha has that same 'appalling weakness'.

The process was more involved than you might suspect.  My GM wasn't lenient, and would repeatedly set ethical traps for Malicia; generally 2 per adventure where I could potentially get thrown out of the cult if I was less-than-circumspect about my choices.  A couple of times I actually had to let NPCs out of their debts because of the oath, and because I couldn't quickly think of a work-around that would keep them debt trapped. 

There is nothing that says that a Chalana Arroy can't use blackmail, cronyism, loan sharking, bribery, drug dependence (this one is tricky), underhanded negotiation tactics, fraud, and other dirty tricks to make money and win political influence.  Malicia always negotiated with a view to creating a peaceful outcome, but one where she inevitably gathered more power and money.  Chalana Arroy is not a truth rune cult after all, and not every peace is a good peace.

[Dragon]

12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The purpose of the oath is to stop the evils of war and the harm it brings to all sentient creatures.  To this end...

1.  Never use weapons or magic to cause injury or death to any living creature.  2.  Pursue peaceful resolution to conflict where possible.  3.  Seek an apolitical and neutral stance so you may facilitate peaceful outcomes more easily.  3.  Don't deliberately kill any living thing except plants.  Learn Foodsong if you have the opportunity. 4. Hurting yourself doesn't break the oath as it relates to your behavior towards other creatures, not your behavior towards yourself.  5.  Using cutting implements and poisonous ingredients as tools of healing doe not break the oath, as they are invariably removing internal chaos from the patient's body.  6.  Animal products that involve the death of an animal are undesirable, and alternatives should be sought where such is a reasonable proposition. 7.  Laying traps is not allowed. 8. Your patient is a sacred trust.  If you place someone under your protection, you may defend them with your magic and even interpose your body between them and any harm, but you must not harm the attacker. 9. You are not obliged to heal people who have offended against you, but such pettiness demeans the calling of a healer. 10.  While the undead fall outside the technical parameters of the oath, you are not trained for combat, so fighting them is an undesirable outcome. 11.  Cure Chaos Wound now specifically removes broo impregnation. (RQG p325)  12.  Spirits fall outside the protection of your oath unless they have living bodies.

A decent starting set. The first sentence is okay, but is not inclusive enough. The oath is also to stop interpersonal conflict as well: assault, rape, death, etc.

You have #3 twice. I can see the first #3 as being a little stringent when contrasted with an apolitical stance regarding Hendrikiland vs Queendom of Jab. But it has the word 'seek' in it, so is acceptable in that context. The second #3 could mention that eating plants in a way that does not kill the plant (e.g. leaves) is preferable when convenient. For #7, would laying noise maker traps be disallowed? i.e. maybe tighten that to traps which bind or harm are not allowed. #9 maybe add a caveat that failing to heal those who actively tried to kill you (e.g. Chaos) does not demean the healer - again your statement has wiggle room in there, so could be seen that way. Especially in certain temples.

By 'starting set', I mean that individual temples may have a slightly different version. Based on the history of the area. In the center of the Lunar Heartland, they may be different than in uncivilized lands like Prax.

[Dragon]

13 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There is nothing that says that a Chalana Arroy can't use blackmail, cronyism, loan sharking, bribery, drug dependence (this one is tricky), underhanded negotiation tactics, fraud, and other dirty tricks to make money and win political influence.  Malicia always negotiated with a view to creating a peaceful outcome, but one where she inevitably gathered more power and money.  Chalana Arroy is not a truth rune cult after all, and not every peace is a good peace.

Well that clearly depends very, very strongly on the definition of 'harm' in 'never to harm an intelligent creature'. In my world, blackmail, loan sharking, bribery, drug dependence, and some other dirty tricks are all a flat out 'harm'. It isn't physical harm, but is certainly is psychological and/or emotional harm. 

[Darius West]

34 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Well that clearly depends very, very strongly on the definition of 'harm' in 'never to harm an intelligent creature'. In my world, blackmail, loan sharking, bribery, drug dependence, and some other dirty tricks are all a flat out 'harm'. It isn't physical harm, but is certainly is psychological and/or emotional harm. 

The wording is "don't harm a living thing and aid all within the limits of one's ability".  Now, this ruling doesn't apply to spirits, does it? Of course not.  A Chalana Arroy cannot heal a damaged mind, unless it is damaged by a disease. Clearly Chalana Arroy is about healing bodies, not minds.  You see children always complain that they don't like the taste of their medicine, or that their stitches itch, but ultimately they are hurting themselves by not obeying the wise healer, and must be stopped for their own good.  Arguably being the slave of a healer is the best possible outcome, as the healer will always find ways to insure you are healthy and productive and you will be bound to follow them in the noblest of all possible endeavors; the healing of the world.  How are you "harmed" by being bound into the most noble purpose of the kindly goddess of healing?  Surely "aid all within the limit of one's ability" therefore must include he social and emotional shackling of individuals to a cause that they in their willful ignorance would not otherwise willingly follow due to their evil and waywardly childish natures?  If Malicia has the ability to help the cause of Chalana Arroy by trapping people in debt slavery so they are bound to help world peace through their perpetual economic contribution, how is that a bad thing?  This is the best way she has yet come up with and represents the limit of her ability to aid the whole world.  

After all, freedom is a very esoteric concept, and most people who have freedom use it very badly.  They think only of their own advantage, and they often go around hurting people (like those troublesome guards that protect priestess Malicia. Phew, isn't it good that they mainly obey her, and for the most part they only beat seven colors of shit though people who owe her money and don't pay, but she scolds them bitterly for such behavior, often docking their pay (actually she doesn't pay them, because they owe her too), and she always heals the injured party herself.  Of course good people will make further donations to the cult at this point.  You wouldn't want to offend the healers after all...) 

So too money is such a materialistic concept that leads to terrible behavior as people pursue it for such ignoble and self-serving ends.  Before Time, people had no such pretentions, and were happy to have food, drink, medicine, shelter, clothing, and a profession.   Service to Chalana Arroy through her servant Malicia is a spiritual calling, which allows one to divest oneself of such silly notions as freedom and wealth, in order to live a simple life in noble service that will make the world a better place.

It should also be pointed out that individual initiate healers don't lose their rights to private property (well, unless they are working in Malicia's temple at Horn Gate, in which case Malicia will find a 'legitimate' way to turn them into her cash cows).

Any resemblance to the Cult of Gark the Calm are purely coincidental! 😈

Edited January 7, 2022 by Darius West

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Bill, that is simply incorrect.  Companies issue policy statements, as do governments, about what constitutes the expected standard of conduct for their representatives are.  The clergy have literal libraries full of what constitutes breaches of priestly and monastic codes and the legal reasoning as to why. 

The operative word here is work. To my mind none of these work. Worse they try to. Ergo, libraries of useless info... again, I am not telling you what to do... is it possible you may wish to tell me what to do.  

[Darius West]

1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said:

The operative word here is work. To my mind none of these work. Worse they try to. Ergo, libraries of useless info... again, I am not telling you what to do... is it possible you may wish to tell me what to do.  

I am trying to demonstrate that there is good reason to have the practical meaning of an oath spelled out, as it is something humans have historically and legally spent a long time doing, even in the bronze age.  Obviously you will do as you please Bill.

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

The clergy have literal libraries full of what constitutes breaches of priestly and monastic codes and the legal reasoning as to why. 

Not sure about 'libraries', but you may know better than a member of the clergy.... 

A ranking member of the clergy in the UK once said to me concerning the very dodgy outcome of a disciplinary procedure "Ali, it's not what you've done, it's who you know."

Unfortunately, the church is a human institution.  All too human.😢

[Dragon]

14 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The wording is "don't harm a living thing and aid all within the limits of one's ability".  Now, this ruling doesn't apply to spirits, does it? Of course not.  A Chalana Arroy cannot heal a damaged mind, unless it is damaged by a disease. Clearly Chalana Arroy is about healing bodies, not minds.  You see children always complain that they don't like the taste of their medicine, or that their stitches itch, but ultimately they are hurting themselves by not obeying the wise healer, and must be stopped for their own good.  Arguably being the slave of a healer is the best possible outcome, as the healer will always find ways to insure you are healthy and productive and you will be bound to follow them in the noblest of all possible endeavors; the healing of the world.  How are you "harmed" by being bound into the most noble purpose of the kindly goddess of healing?  Surely "aid all within the limit of one's ability" therefore must include he social and emotional shackling of individuals to a cause that they in their willful ignorance would not otherwise willingly follow due to their evil and waywardly childish natures?  If Malicia has the ability to help the cause of Chalana Arroy by trapping people in debt slavery so they are bound to help world peace through their perpetual economic contribution, how is that a bad thing?  This is the best way she has yet come up with and represents the limit of her ability to aid the whole world.  

After all, freedom is a very esoteric concept, and most people who have freedom use it very badly.  They think only of their own advantage, and they often go around hurting people (like those troublesome guards that protect priestess Malicia. Phew, isn't it good that they mainly obey her, and for the most part they only beat seven colors of shit though people who owe her money and don't pay, but she scolds them bitterly for such behavior, often docking their pay (actually she doesn't pay them, because they owe her too), and she always heals the injured party herself.  Of course good people will make further donations to the cult at this point.  You wouldn't want to offend the healers after all...) 

So too money is such a materialistic concept that leads to terrible behavior as people pursue it for such ignoble and self-serving ends.  Before Time, people had no such pretentions, and were happy to have food, drink, medicine, shelter, clothing, and a profession.   Service to Chalana Arroy through her servant Malicia is a spiritual calling, which allows one to divest oneself of such silly notions as freedom and wealth, in order to live a simple life in noble service that will make the world a better place.

It should also be pointed out that individual initiate healers don't lose their rights to private property (well, unless they are working in Malicia's temple at Horn Gate, in which case Malicia will find a 'legitimate' way to turn them into her cash cows).

Any resemblance to the Cult of Gark the Calm are purely coincidental! 😈

I was using the quote from "Notes: An initiate must take an oath never to harm an intelligent creature or needlessly cause pain to any living thing. An initiate must give half of their income to the cult of Chalana Arroy. An initiate must become a vegetarian. An initiate of Chalana Arroy can identify the presence of disease in a person or thing, simply through concentration. Foes incapacitated by a healer’s action (usually with Befuddle or Sleep) are under her protection. They may not be harmed in any way, though they may be disarmed and captured. Chaotic foes are exempt from this protection." from RQ: RiG page 290. I am not familiar with the context of your quotation.

I am not swayed by your diverting rationalizations. I do not believe a Goddess who exists in a world where Gods and Goddesses tangibly interact with the material world would be swayed. They power rune spells, send dreams, provide answers to divinations, respond to divine intervention requests, and send spirits of retribution. You say your GM was not lenient. I disagree. YGMV. 

[Jeff]

9 minutes ago, Dragon said:

I was using the quote from "Notes: An initiate must take an oath never to harm an intelligent creature or needlessly cause pain to any living thing. An initiate must give half of their income to the cult of Chalana Arroy. An initiate must become a vegetarian. An initiate of Chalana Arroy can identify the presence of disease in a person or thing, simply through concentration. Foes incapacitated by a healer’s action (usually with Befuddle or Sleep) are under her protection. They may not be harmed in any way, though they may be disarmed and captured. Chaotic foes are exempt from this protection." from RQ: RiG page 290. I am not familiar with the context of your quotation.

I am not swayed by your diverting rationalizations. I do not believe a Goddess who exists in a world where Gods and Goddesses tangibly interact with the material world would be swayed. They power rune spells, send dreams, provide answers to divinations, respond to divine intervention requests, and send spirits of retribution. You say your GM was not lenient. I disagree. YGMV. 

I've never found it difficult for players and GMs to comprehend the basic tenets of the Chalana Arroy cult, and in my experience it is one of the more popular cults. 

Here's what it says in the Cults Book:

REQUIREMENTS TO BELONG

An initiate must take an oath never to harm an intelligent creature or to needlessly cause pain to any living thing. She must become a vegetarian and is forbidden to learn any combat skill but Dodge. An initiate must give 50% of her income to a high healer of Chalana Arroy.

Foes incapacitated by a Chalana Arroy initiate (e.g., through a spell such as Befuddle or Sleep) are under her protection. She may not allow them to be harmed in any way, though they may be disarmed or captured. Chaotic foes are exempt from this protection.

The High Healer has no restrictions beyond that of an initiate, except that they must answer a legitimate Lightbringer’s Summons or lose all Rune points and other benefits of their goddess.

PRIORITIES

Ideally, Chalana Arroy’s healers value all life equally. In practice, a hierarchy of value exists; plants are eaten for food, and if necessary, an animal can be killed to heal a sentient being or another, more valuable, animal. Animals are also killed to obtain ingredients for medicines. Such slaughter must be done sparingly and as mercifully as possible.

The killing of an intelligent being is never acceptable. 

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

Unfortunately, the church is a human institution.  All too human.

But in Glorantha, it does not require a human to decide whether an oath has been broken.

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

But in Glorantha, it does not require a human to decide whether an oath has been broken.

Which is a true advantage!

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

Which is a true advantage!

Hence the well-known saying, "To err is human, but it takes a deity to really f-- ...oul things up!"

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, Dragon said:

I think you are reading the wrong implication in Dampen Damage. Dampen Damage is Death and Dispel. I think it is intended that a CA sorcerer would tend to master Life, which provides insight to Death. And casting a spell which dispels death in the parlance of sorcery is quite acceptable. The same can be said for Ward Against Weapons.

I figured that point would come up (and, thanks for reminding me of WAW - I knew I missed one!)

However, I don't think I'm convinced. Yes, I get it's an Insightful casting. And I get it's a Dispel. I'm just not convinced that a CA would use any Death runes, for any purpose. Just like, apparently, they wouldn't even use a shield for defensive purposes.

Of course, yada yada varying Gloranthas......

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Not sure about 'libraries', but you may know better than a member of the clergy.... 

No.  Actual libraries.  The Roman Catholic Church maintained its own separate legal system in Europe for centuries in every kingdom.  As a result they have libraries full of trial records, jurisprudence, and so-forth that are a rich source of primary source material for interested parties.  Many of the cases brought directly related to members of the clergy, whether monk or priest, who broke their vows, and recorded the reasoning that went into the deliberation on their cases.

[Dragon]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I figured that point would come up (and, thanks for reminding me of WAW - I knew I missed one!)

However, I don't think I'm convinced. Yes, I get it's an Insightful casting. And I get it's a Dispel. I'm just not convinced that a CA would use any Death runes, for any purpose. Just like, apparently, they wouldn't even use a shield for defensive purposes.

Of course, yada yada varying Gloranthas......

Any GM could rule that way. In which case, I would suggest such GM consider an alternative.

We have already seen Logical Clarity vs Solace of the Logical Mind. The former is Illusion+Dispel. The latter is Truth+Command. While the wording is not identical, the effects are pretty darn close. Logical Clarity immunizes against Orate and magic 'mental confusion' (specifically Madness), where Solace is specific to mind-altering magic and never mentions non=magical effects. Clearly Befuddle is an 'other mental confusion' for the purposes of Logical Clarity. And Madness is a 'mind-altering magic' for the purposes of SofLM. So those are covered by both spells. A vampire's Enthrall is mind-altering and a magical effect, so specified in one and covered by the other. They didn't mention a Jack-O-Bear's primary Chaos feature, but they both sound like that would be included, as well as Berserk, Fanaticism, Panic, Fear, a Lune or Shade attack, etc.

The last two sentences in each have the same meaning, with slightly different wording. e.g. "spell's strength level" vs "spell's levels of strength", and "augment any skill" vs "augment any ability". 

Here we have the same effect with two different spells that have very different runes+techniques. So the designers are, IMHO, offering us a method. A different sorcery source could offer a nearly identical spell, using different runes+techniques.

So a very generous GM who believes no CA would ever use insight to Death could have a sorcerous CA find a tome that teaches e.g. Lifeblood, which has almost exactly the effects of Dampen Damage but using Life+Command.

In my Glorantha, I will allow the CA to use insight into Death, but would prohibit them from learning sorcery spells which have things like Death+Command or Death+Summon or Death+Combine, e.g. no Boon of KT. A CA asking to master Death so they can use insight to Life is right out. I am having difficulty imaging a spell which uses Death+Tap. Which of course leaves Death+Separate. Maybe if it separated e.g. the Slow Death (disease) from a body I would allow it. Such a spell could be Neutralize Disease, but that seems like it would most likely be Death+Dispel.

I don't have a good idea how Separate is used in sorcery, as I could find zero examples in the limited list we currently have. Did I miss one?

[soltakss]

On 1/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Jeff said:

An initiate must take an oath never to harm an intelligent creature or to needlessly cause pain to any living thing.

Glad to see "needlessly" in the wording, that is often an Adventurer's Get Out of Jail Free Card.

On 1/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Jeff said:

She must become a vegetarian and is forbidden to learn any combat skill but Dodge.

Easy enough.

On 1/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Jeff said:

An initiate must give 50% of her income to a high healer of Chalana Arroy.

Easy enough, as most Healers are supported by the cult, unless they are wandering healers.

On 1/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Jeff said:

Foes incapacitated by a Chalana Arroy initiate (e.g., through a spell such as Befuddle or Sleep) are under her protection.

A Chalana Arroy cultist's protection is not just a small thing, breaking it could bring Chalana Arroy's punishment upon them. Try to get healing at a Chalana Arroy Temple afterwards and see what happens.

On 1/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Jeff said:

She may not allow them to be harmed in any way, though they may be disarmed or captured.

Presumably, she can allow them to leave and then her protection ends. Personally, I would escort them to a place of safety and let them go. I would not allow others to harm them as soon as I have released them from my protection, for example.

On 1/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Jeff said:

Chaotic foes are exempt from this protection.

Of course, but a Chalana Arroy cultists might still offer her protection, just that Chalana Arroy does not care if it is broken.

On 1/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Jeff said:

The High Healer has no restrictions beyond that of an initiate, except that they must answer a legitimate Lightbringer’s Summons or lose all Rune points and other benefits of their goddess.

Which is always fun. No getting out of it by offering a big treasure, like Bituran Varosh did.

On 1/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Jeff said:

Ideally, Chalana Arroy’s healers value all life equally. In practice, a hierarchy of value exists; plants are eaten for food, and if necessary, an animal can be killed to heal a sentient being or another, more valuable, animal.

That sounds OK in principle.

On 1/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Jeff said:

Animals are also killed to obtain ingredients for medicines. Such slaughter must be done sparingly and as mercifully as possible.

I would have butchers employed at Chalana Arroy Temples to do such a thing, to ensure the Chalana Arroy Initiates can keep their hands clean.

On 1/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Jeff said:

The killing of an intelligent being is never acceptable. 

Even beings of Chaos? Fine, let the other Adventurers do the killing instead.

On 1/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Jeff said:

I've never found it difficult for players and GMs to comprehend the basic tenets of the Chalana Arroy cult, and in my experience it is one of the more popular cults. 

I am playing a Chalana Arroy Healer for the first time and it is fun.

 

[soltakss]

On 1/7/2022 at 2:07 PM, Darius West said:

Chalana Arroy requires its members to swear an oath that is, frankly, crippling, if you take it literally. 

Not really, unless you, or your GM, have a very extreme interpretation.

On 1/5/2022 at 5:51 PM, Darius West said:

I mean, arguably, a Chalana Arroy cannot use make-up as it might harm their skin, thus harming a living creature; themselves.  They may also not stay up past their bed-time for the same reason.  They may also not get pregnant as it poses an unacceptable risk to themselves and the infant, and both will be harmed to some degree in the process of giving birth.  Arguably they may not have sex, in case someone experiences chafing.   Going on adventures is right out, and completely irresponsible.  On the other hand, they can take up arms against the undead, but will be thrown out of the cult if the undead hurts them.  If they stub their toe, they are apostate according to the letter of their oath.

A Chalana Arroy cultists who is harmed by someone else or something else is not breaking her vows, as something else is harming them.

It is arguable whether the restriction applies to self-harm, I would argue that it didn't, but it is easy to fix by adding "another" to the vow.

 

[PhilHibbs]

15 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

However, I don't think I'm convinced. Yes, I get it's an Insightful casting. And I get it's a Dispel. I'm just not convinced that a CA would use any Death runes, for any purpose. Just like, apparently, they wouldn't even use a shield for defensive purposes.

You aren't using the Death Rune. You're using the Life Rune to dispel Death. That's literally what healing is, dispelling death with life.

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, Dragon said:

I don't have a good idea how Separate is used in sorcery, as I could find zero examples in the limited list we currently have. Did I miss one?

Only "De-Nature Alcohol" and "Mark of Sin", but those are from The Book of Doom, not an official Chaosium publication.

Sorcery spells by Rune and Technique

Edited January 8, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Ali the Helering]

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

No.  Actual libraries.  The Roman Catholic Church maintained its own separate legal system in Europe for centuries in every kingdom.  As a result they have libraries full of trial records, jurisprudence, and so-forth that are a rich source of primary source material for interested parties.  Many of the cases brought directly related to members of the clergy, whether monk or priest, who broke their vows, and recorded the reasoning that went into the deliberation on their cases.

Ahh.  The difference is that you originally wrote that that was the sole content of those libraries.  'Many of the cases' is a bit of a qualification, and with that I certainly wouldn't quibble.

[Bren]

While I want clarity in my RPG rules (well actually any sort of rules), I dislike casuistry of the too subtle or specious kind.

And I agree that an actual oath would be a very nice to have, especially if is or becomes a Chalana Arroy initiate.

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

I would have butchers employed at Chalana Arroy Temples to do such a thing, to ensure the Chalana Arroy Initiates can keep their hands clean.

I love this idea! 😃

I can also see sweepers carefully removing dirt and dust so as not to harm a spider. I can also see some few (but not all) temples where the CAs would have non-initiates do the sweeping so as to preserve the purity of the CA initiates and rune levels.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Bren

[Darius West]

17 hours ago, soltakss said:

Not really, unless you, or your GM, have a very extreme interpretation.

What about if your CA high priestess is a bitch who is out to get you ?

18 hours ago, soltakss said:

A Chalana Arroy cultists who is harmed by someone else or something else is not breaking her vows, as something else is harming them.

Agreed.  But what about deliberate self harm, such as needing to remove your own foot because it is trapped?

18 hours ago, soltakss said:

It is arguable whether the restriction applies to self-harm, I would argue that it didn't, but it is easy to fix by adding "another" to the vow.

I am personally against any restriction to do with self harm, and would go further than that even.  Can a CA be cast from the cult for causing a lethal accident such as malpractice?  What about killing a fly (which are servants of Malia)?  I would argue that these things are lamentable within CA, but should require atonement rather than ejection.