Chalana Arroy, a question or two.

[simonh]

12 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

There used to be a notable broo CA.  Not sure it's canonical anymore, but our group takes it as proof that CA is o.k. with Chaos, contrary to some of the recent materials.  As usual, YGMV.

In-world there are rumours of "The Wild Healer of the Rockwoods", who's apparently a pacifist broo that worships Chalana Arroy and is a healer. Cults of Prax says that chaos creatures have been known to join the cult and that the wild healer is an example.

It's generally accepted here that this rumour is correct, this broo does exist and is a Chalana Arroy healer. Beyond that the details aren't clear. [Open to counter-views or corrections on this].

That doesn't mean that everyone in Glorantha believes this broo exists, or that they are a legitimate Chalana Arroy worshiper, or that they all agree on all the facts, or what it means is any of it is true. I don't think this broo has ever made an appearance in 'settled' lands. I think there must be in-world reports of various people encountering it, but I don't think there's much canonical and there's no guarantee any of these reports are at all consistent with each other. All we have is the original single sentence in Cults of Prax and the mention in the Guide.

12 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As for Lunars accepting chaos, therefore all being deemed chaotic by association, remember that Prince Sartar the Great and Magnificent took Telmori as his bodyguards, and a later Prince of Sartar married a Telmori.

Absolutely. Are the members of the royal household that lived and worked alongside these not "Good Orlanthi"?

We know from the game what it says definitively is the case in the setting, but nobody in Glorantha has access to RQG or the Guide. We can see around us that even today, with video and audio recording equipment everywhere how little agreement there is about "the facts", and even less agreement on how to interpret them. In-world some people probably think all Telmori are chaos creatures. Others meet Telmori occasionally in markets and fought alongside them in various battles and they seem no more weird or 'chaotic' than plenty of other strangers. Same with Lunars. Heck, plenty of Lunar citizens aren't actually members of any Lunar cult (well, they're lay members of the cult of the Emperor but does that really count in any meaningful way?) and lots of them probably disagree completely with each other about the "Lunar" attitude to chaos and what it means.

11 hours ago, Ian_W said:

If you're a chaos-hating barbarian, it's pretty simple.

If it's weird, it's probably Chaos.

That's a truly terrible heuristic to apply in Glorantha. It's full to the gills with weird crap. You can't afford to go round making mortal enemies with everyone/thing that you don't recognise or understand.

Edited December 10, 2021 by simonh

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 hours ago, Ian_W said:

Storm Bull teaches Sense Chaos.

a lot say that yes, and it is true, but for me it is not an evidence :

 

 a new storm bull initiate starts with 10-15%

that means that 85% of the time the sense say nothing about the chaotic creature in front of the buller.

Does the buller conclude the gorp in front of him is not chaotic ?

 

I see sense chaos as a blessing to help bullers to not be ambush, or to detect hidden chaos. An help, not a decision, not an evidence

[Ian_W]

6 hours ago, simonh said:

 

That's a truly terrible heuristic to apply in Glorantha. It's full to the gills with weird crap. You can't afford to go round making mortal enemies with everyone/thing that you don't recognise or understand.

Which is a major reason societies who don't have that view - ie the World Council of Friends, Arkat, Lunar Empire, God Learners, EWF - are more successful than those who do, until they get flattened by some magical cataclysm or other.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Ian_W said:

Which is a major reason societies who don't have that view - ie the World Council of Friends, Arkat, Lunar Empire, God Learners, EWF - are more successful than those who do, until they get flattened by some magical cataclysm or other.

Yeah, that MUST be a coincidence! 🤔

Edited December 10, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Ian_W]

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

 

Does the buller conclude the gorp in front of him is not chaotic ?

 

If it's weird - for a Sartarite Ducks arent weird, for someone from the West heck yes they are, and for good Dara Happans tattooed storm-worshippers are absolutely weird - then the Third Age default is it is either chaotic, or it hangs around with chaotic, or its related to Godless Sorcerors, Those Guys Who Conquered Us Long Ago And We Hate or similar.

 

Note the culture the cults of Chalana Arroy/Saint Xemela/Xiola Umbar share is *not* Third Age. Her myths seem to put her as one of the few survivors from The Spike, and she's happily part of any of the Lightbringer, Solar, Troll and Western systems. She and hers are accepting of all of the weird in the world.

[Alex]

7 hours ago, simonh said:

That's a truly terrible heuristic to apply in Glorantha. It's full to the gills with weird crap. You can't afford to go round making mortal enemies with everyone/thing that you don't recognise or understand.

You're right, and that doesn't sound like the Orlanthi at all.

*stabs source of heat, light, and cosmic order*

"Hey!  Why is it so cold, dark, and disorderly around here?!  It's an outrage, and isn't the sun-emperor-stabbing I voted for!!"

One way that Greg put it -- and I'm sure he said different and arguably inconsistent things before and since, Your Greg Will Vary -- was that the Orlanthi consider anything that don't understand to be Chaos.  Which is pretty much in line with Ian's take.  Now of course the Orlanthi do have myth-maps of many, many gillfuls of weird crap, whether they entirely like them or not.

[simonh]

3 hours ago, Alex said:

You're right, and that doesn't sound like the Orlanthi at all.

*stabs source of heat, light, and cosmic order*

The Orlanthi that were up to their eyeballs in the World Council of Friends and Unity Council, formed the core of the EWF, who through the closely allied Issaries cult know the most widely used language in Glorantha. They have potent long distance travel and communication magic, allowing their culture to range all across central Genertela.

Their myths range across the entire cosmos, so they know about many different religions and cultures. Their core mythic quest is about allying with others, and contact and reconciliation with the rest of the world.

Sure the big projects often ended badly, but that didn’t stop them from keeping on trying. They’re still one if the most successful cultures on the Lozenge.

Edited December 11, 2021 by simonh

[Alex]

7 hours ago, simonh said:

The Orlanthi that were up to their eyeballs in the World Council of Friends and Unity Council, formed the core of the EWF, who through the closely allied Issaries cult know the most widely used language in Glorantha.

The Orlanthi are a rich and diverse culture indeed!  Sometimes with the diversity extending widely even between "what I said before" and "what I'm saying now".

[Bren]

On 12/10/2021 at 8:51 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

 a new storm bull initiate starts with 10-15%

that means that 85% of the time the sense say nothing about the chaotic creature in front of the buller.

And at a 10% skill level there is a successful detection 10% of the time and a fumble (false positive or false negative) 5% of the time. Unless the incidence of chaos is very high in the population being sniffed, it's more likely that the thing that smells like Chaos actually is a false positive than it is a true positive.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 minute ago, Bren said:

And at a 10% skill level there is a successful detection 10% of the time and a fumble (false positive or false negative) 5% of the time. Unless the incidence of chaos is very high in the population being sniffed, it's more likely that the thing that smells like Chaos actually is a false positive than it is a true positive.

yes absolutly, that why I don't consider it as a "proof" for any gloranthan scientist- well... is there any scientist in glorantha 😛 ?

people believe this or this is chaos. Of course sometime it is obvious, sometimes not.

back to chalana, that drives me to say that if a CA healer is not sure these "opponents" are chaotic, she will not try to "test" the hypothesis of chaos by hurting them

[AndrewTBP]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Is there any scientist in glorantha?

Leonardo the Scientist: One of the most colorful inhabitants of God Forgot, Leonardo the Scientist can often be seen paddling his way across the sky in his pedalcopter. Leonardo is a bit mad, and he refuses to make more than one of anything. Thus, among the islands lie his armored battle wagon, his kite-shaped parachute glider, and other colorful, unique inventions.

— The Guide to Glorantha p. 249

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, AndrewTBP said:

Leonardo the Scientist: One of the most colorful inhabitants of God Forgot, Leonardo the Scientist can often be seen paddling his way across the sky in his pedalcopter. Leonardo is a bit mad, and he refuses to make more than one of anything. Thus, among the islands lie his armored battle wagon, his kite-shaped parachute glider, and other colorful, unique inventions.

— The Guide to Glorantha p. 249

Sad truth: most ”mad scientists” are actually mad engineers.

[Alex]

13 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Sad truth: most ”mad scientists” are actually mad engineers.

The refusal to build more than one of everything is somewhat sciencey.  If one is a sufficiently posh Theoretician, one has Experimental minions to make the test-equipment for one.  If not, one may be making one's own "research-grade" prototypes, testbeds, software, etc...

[Bren]

Once you have a working model from your design, making more is manufacturing, not engineering.

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

is there any scientist in glorantha 😛 ?

😮

Surely the God Learners were the archetype of scientists... Theorizing, testing, modifying, experimenting...

I'd say Mostali as well, but science sort of requires the willingness to change (ideas, theories, practices)...

[Dragon]

On 12/11/2021 at 6:22 PM, Shiningbrow said:

I'd say Mostali as well, but science sort of requires the willingness to change (ideas, theories, practices)...

Mostali seem capable of change. They just do it within their own rigid structures. They never had a need to design a Gobbler who could consume that explosive powdery material, and then they did when humans got hold of it. Aren't Mostali credited with making the constructs which searched out everyone with God Learner abilities and wiped them out? Those didn't exist before the God Learners. So constructs are their rigid structure, and a new one being their scientific/engineering progress.

[Dragon]

On 12/10/2021 at 5:47 AM, simonh said:

That's a truly terrible heuristic to apply in Glorantha. It's full to the gills with weird crap. You can't afford to go round making mortal enemies with everyone/thing that you don't recognise or understand.

Indeed. Scorpion Men are historically Chaos. To someone who doesn't know better, are centaurs also Chaos because they are a human torso attached to a beast body? How about Fox Women in human form, i.e. with a big tail? Could be a Chaotic Feature! Examples abound.

Note that Chalana Arroy has some nuance. There are two big exemptions: Chaos and the not living. So a Chalana Arroy attacked in spirit combat by a run of the mill spirit can actively use Spirit Combat against it. They do not need to be certain it is a Disease Spirit or Mad Head Ghost or similar. It isn't alive, so defend yourself as best you can. 

Chalana Arroy also has a significant difference between what the initiate+ can do and what the initiate allows the party to do. A party that includes a CA cannot be murder hobos, or the CA must leave. But if they are ambushed by trolls, and a couple of the trolls are killed, the CA doesn't need to leave the party. Perhaps say a prayer for the souls of the dead trolls. On the other hand, if the CA Sleeps/Befuddles a troll and that one is killed, the CA needs to leave the party or the party must kick out the killer. In either case, the CA must inform the local cult leadership the killer is now denied healing. Same scenario for other non-chaotic enemies.

IMHO.

In the interests of bizarre happenings, a CA is attacked by what they presume is a run of the mill spirit; but is actually a discorporate non-chaotic shaman. The CA rolls a special Spirit Combat roll and inflicts actual damage on the shaman's body - completely unknown to the CA (RiG, p 369, Hit Point Damage section). Perhaps that does not count, because at the specific time the shaman is discorporate and thus not 'an embodied target'. Would that get the CA in serious trouble with the cult? If so, an particularly nasty Kyger Litor shaman/priestess could wreak havoc at the local CA temple by engaging each initiate at an opportune time until the CA initiate scores a special or critical result and then withdrawing.

[simonh]

2 hours ago, Dragon said:

In the interests of bizarre happenings, a CA is attacked by what they presume is a run of the mill spirit; but is actually a discorporate non-chaotic shaman. The CA rolls a special Spirit Combat roll and inflicts actual damage on the shaman's body - completely unknown to the CA (RiG, p 369, Hit Point Damage section). Perhaps that does not count, because at the specific time the shaman is discorporate and thus not 'an embodied target'. Would that get the CA in serious trouble with the cult? If so, an particularly nasty Kyger Litor shaman/priestess could wreak havoc at the local CA temple by engaging each initiate at an opportune time until the CA initiate scores a special or critical result and then withdrawing.

This is all about responsibility for the consequences of your actions. If the consequences are harm to a living being, that is abhorrent to the manifest power of life and healing in Glorantha, which we refer to as Chalana Arroy. It’s the responsibility of a devotee of the goddess to ensure that does not happen. “I didn’t mean it”, or “I didn’t think of that” do not cut it, IMHO.

Edited December 13, 2021 by simonh

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, Dragon said:

Mostali seem capable of change. They just do it within their own rigid structures. They never had a need to design a Gobbler who could consume that explosive powdery material, and then they did when humans got hold of it. Aren't Mostali credited with making the constructs which searched out everyone with God Learner abilities and wiped them out? Those didn't exist before the God Learners. So constructs are their rigid structure, and a new one being their scientific/engineering progress.

Very true. Mostali are.most definitely the current scientists of Glorantha, what with advanced weaponry, masonry, smithing techniques, alchemy, and all those other inventions...

I was trying to be a bit tongue in cheek with it... Obviously failed 😞

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Dragon said:

Perhaps that does not count, because at the specific time the shaman is discorporate and thus not 'an embodied target'.

I agree with @simonh here - the CA initiate must atone before having access to their Rune Spells again.

However, I'd presume that the CA temples are somewhat used to that, and are prepared. After all, accidents do happen, and those zealots can be very pedantic.

[Alex]

4 hours ago, Dragon said:

Perhaps that does not count, because at the specific time the shaman is discorporate and thus not 'an embodied target'. Would that get the CA in serious trouble with the cult?

Interesting question!  Or pair of questions, really, as there's two aspects do it:  does the CA's magic fail spontaneously, due to violation of their oath in a way that's magically real and effective in and of the action itself?  i.e., the goddess herself 'notices' and cares about?  And the cultic one, which is what other worshippers would make of this case?

@simonhis IMO exactly right that the correct approach to fixing it -- to whatever extent it needs fixed -- is the amends and reparation.  Especially seen through the Orlanthi social context, where they were moving fast and breaking things, long before that guy in the Valley adopted that as a slogan, but with an emphasis that fixing them afterwards is the thing to do.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Very true. Mostali are.most definitely the current scientists of Glorantha, what with advanced weaponry, masonry, smithing techniques, alchemy, and all those other inventions...

Mad scientistisrs, when those operate as engineers. There is little Mostali runtime devoted to understanding things, they are compulsive makers. Once they have prototypes, they may fiddle with and twist those.

 

[Dragon]

12 hours ago, Alex said:

@simonhis IMO exactly right that the correct approach to fixing it -- to whatever extent it needs fixed -- is the amends and reparation.  Especially seen through the Orlanthi social context, where they were moving fast and breaking things, long before that guy in the Valley adopted that as a slogan, but with an emphasis that fixing them afterwards is the thing to do.

And it makes a good scenario hook. The CA did something a bit wrong, though not intended. And now needs to 'heal' things. Things like that can happen and what matters is making it right again.

 

[g33k]

23 hours ago, Dragon said:

...

In the interests of bizarre happenings, a CA is attacked by what they presume is a run of the mill spirit; but is actually a discorporate non-chaotic shaman. The CA rolls a special Spirit Combat roll and inflicts actual damage on the shaman's body - completely unknown to the CA (RiG, p 369, Hit Point Damage section). Perhaps that does not count, because at the specific time the shaman is discorporate and thus not 'an embodied target'. Would that get the CA in serious trouble with the cult? If so, an particularly nasty Kyger Litor shaman/priestess could wreak havoc at the local CA temple by engaging each initiate at an opportune time until the CA initiate scores a special or critical result and then withdrawing.

I would regard this as a specific special case of "ambush" and/or of the KL conducting self-harm.

The CA would be obligated to heal any such injury, if it was presented to them.

But the shaman intentionally got hurt -- they WANTED TO, and kept at it until the CA accidentally/unintentionally did so.  I don't think CA herself is going to be angry at her initiate for this (unless the injury comes before them and they refuse to heal it).

 

[Bohemond]

On 9/1/2021 at 7:10 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I consider the taboos in all source on the same way : never attack or hurt anyone (aka with INT) even a bad person, never harm or kill anything (without INT) except if you save something-one more important.

ex:

you cannot attack a broo, even if it is killing your baby. But you can cast sleep on it.

you cannot hunt a boar for pleasure, but you can kill a boar if doing that, you save the child in front of the boar and if there is no other less deadly  option

There is no taboo about ban a spirit, so you can use your magic or your skill to "fight" disease spirits

 

I would say, there may be some ritual every morning (or evening) to excuse in advance such accident. OR... the power of Chalana is enough and the ant will miraculously survive. I don't play this detail to be honest.

I'm a fan of trying to get players out of the contemporary mindset as much as possible. In pre-modern societies, intention isn't generally a factor in judging the moral acceptability of an action (that concept only began to clearly emerge in the 12th century AD). With religious taboos and geases, early cultures tended to see them more as absolutes--either you've kept them or violated them. So as I see it, Chalanans absolutely cannot kill, for any reason, including saving the life of another person. It offends the goddess on a very profound level, no matter the cause.

These cultures tended to be fascinated by situations where two taboos or geases were in conflict, because they create no-win situations. In Irish myth, the hero Cuchulainn has two geases: never eat dog meat and never refuse food. His enemies engineer his downfall by offering him dog meat to eat, because he's screwed--either he breaks one or the other, and his death follows not long after. Similarly, when Agamemnon wants to sail to Troy, the goddess Artemis is pissed at him and demands the sacrifice of his daughter. Human sacrifice is revolting to the Greeks, but so is defying the gods. He sacrifices Iphegenia (at least in some versions of the myth) and that helps set up the situation where his wife Klytemnestra will murder him after returning home. In early Germanic literature, women are sometimes trapped in a situation where their husband has killed their father/brother (or vice versa) and she must choose whether to support her marital family or her birth family, knowing that either choice creates sorrow for one but inaction creates sorrow for the other. In the Tanakh (the Old Testament), when David relocates the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem, the ox pulling the wagon stumbles a bit and the Ark threatens to slide off the wagon. Uzzah reaches out to steady it, and in so doing violates the prohibition against touching it; Yahweh strikes him dead, despite his good intention. 

Why is it useful to think in these terms? Because it creates more interesting role-playing, IMO. The Chalanan runs into a situation where they cannot kill the animal that is threatening to harm a child. How do they react? They can ignore the problem and let the child die, which might offend the goddess. They can save the child by harming the animal and definitely offend the goddess. Or they can try to find another option, such as risking their own life by throwing themselves in front of the animal. Or, if they harm the animal, they then have a complication where they have to figure out how to appease the goddess' anger, which manifests as the failure of all their healing magic. To me that's -way- more interesting than "the goddess will forgive me for breaking her rules because it's for a good cause." Putting two of the character's values in conflict generally produces nice chewy role-playing.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Bohemond