Why does everyone hate Daka Fal?

[Ladygolem]

Looking through the cult compatibility table on p.311 of RQG, I noticed that Daka Fal's cult is marked as hostile to twelve different cults - far and away the most out of any of the cults listed. Even the Seven Mothers cult is only hostile to half as many, and he's got Eurmal beat by one! Daka Fal's cult is even hostile to Waha and Storm Bull, which you'd think would at least tolerate each other since they exist mostly within the same social groups. What gives? I don't see anything in their cult description that would explain this.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Ladygolem

[Alex]

30 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

Looking through the cult compatibility table on p.311 of RQG, I noticed that Daka Fal's cult is marked as hostile to twelve different cults - far and away the most out of any of the cults listed. Even the Seven Mothers cult is only hostile to half as many! Daka Fal's cult is even hostile to Waha and Storm Bull, which you'd think would at least tolerate each other since they exist mostly within the same social groups. What gives? I don't see anything in their cult description that would explain this.

We got one, of sorts, in the hot-off-the-presses Cults of Prax:  "The cult dislikes gods in general [...]"  The Hostility-fest in the CCC starts in Cults of Terror, though, glossing it in part by that book's "new" (Holy early '80s revisionism, Batman!) system for joining multiple cults.  Evidently DF is pretty down on that in most cases, the exceptions mostly being the more "shaman-friendly" ones, logically enough to that extent.  That may or may not correspond to their interpersonal dealings when different cultists meet generally.

Personally I suspect Daka Fal has extremely diverse cultic attitudes, even within a particular cultural and religious context (the classic CoP Praxian DF, the Heortling Darhudan, etc) never mind between different such.  Especially as there's something of a tension here between DF as a specific mythological figure, and as a coathanger for Ancestor Worship generally, as was explicitly the case in the RQ3 nanocult.

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[Ladygolem]

29 minutes ago, Alex said:

This post may also be relevant to your interests:  

As usual, I am rendered a fool and a clown for not searching the forums before posting. Thanks!

I guess with this in mind it's not so much weird that they're so hostile, but rather that the justification for this isn't mentioned anywhere in Daka Fal's writeup in the rulebook. That seems like a pretty significant aspect of the cult to leave out when most players and GMs most likely won't have access to those older publications.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Ladygolem said:

I noticed that Daka Fal's cult is marked as hostile to twelve different cults

Daka Fal, aka Grandfather Mortal, is the first being to die - killed by the actions of the gods.  So there is a natural suspicion and hostility there (they aren't Enemy cults, just Hostile).  It is also the cult of Ancestors - where family and ancestors (spirits) are valued over the gods. 

[svensson]

I think that it's a function of the 'settled' cultures discomfort with practicing shamans.

Everybody worships their ancestors in a detached kind of way. They recite the names, give the offerings, placate the spirits... all of which is important given the absolute reality of angry ancestral spirits in Glorantha.

But to be in constant communication with the dead, to purposely thin the walls between the Mundane World and Spirit World as matter of course, this is something most theists are very leery about.

Heroquests are different, of course. Those require a great deal of community support and the sacrifice of clan or city's magical power.

Shamans, OTOH, can cast Axis Mundi pretty much any time the want! And they can't control WHICH ancestor shows up! Everybody has 'that one guy' in the family tree they don't talk about, but what if HE shows up? And that's not even getting into the weird taboos shamans have or the incomprehensible advice they give.

So it might have something to do with shamans generally and not Daka Fal specifically.

Edited December 8, 2021 by svensson

[Jeff]

15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Daka Fal, aka Grandfather Mortal, is the first being to die - killed by the actions of the gods.  So there is a natural suspicion and hostility there (they aren't Enemy cults, just Hostile).  It is also the cult of Ancestors - where family and ancestors (spirits) are valued over the gods. 

That is correct. Daka Fal is the cult of Mortals, and his cult is hostile to the claims and pretensions of the gods. His worship is strictly delineated from that of the gods.

[Alex]

19 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

As usual, I am rendered a fool and a clown for not searching the forums before posting. Thanks!

Actually I searched the interwebz for the best summary, and the BRP forum won fair and square. 🙂  As is so often the case!

19 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

I guess with this in mind it's not so much weird that they're so hostile, but rather that the justification for this isn't mentioned anywhere in Daka Fal's writeup in the rulebook. That seems like a pretty significant aspect of the cult to leave out when most players and GMs most likely won't have access to those older publications.

TBF it's a 300-word writeup, and I'm not sure the "gods vs spirits" stuff (misapplied worship strikes back!) merits squeezing out more directly applicable material.  Granted it does leave the CCC rather under-explained.  No doubt the upcoming Cults books will go lavishly into the detail and nuance of this!

[Alex]

33 minutes ago, svensson said:

So it might have something to do with shamans generally and not Daka Fal specifically.

Probably a bit of both.  Daka Fal has a particular mythological and psychopompous role in connection with death, over and above what you'd see between Orlanthi and Kolati say, never mind with religions -- like the Grazer Yelm cult -- that explicitly mix the two.

In a lot of cases they'll be very compatible -- "of course you're allowed to worship our gods and our ancestors; you kinda have to in fact!" -- but whether this is in the form of this particular cult/tradition/format (often it won't require the full shamanic toolkit at all) is potentially a separate question.

[Ladygolem]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

So it might have something to do with shamans generally and not Daka Fal specifically.

That would make sense if the cult wasn't hostile to Waha's, which is also heavily shaman-focused.

[Alex]

28 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

That would make sense if the cult wasn't hostile to Waha's, which is also heavily shaman-focused.

Yeah, that one breaks down for me too.  That also seems like a case where we'd sensibly have to have an analysis by Praxian, Orlanthi, "other ancestor worship, misc" takes, whether or not they end up differing in actual attitude.  Not a new mystery though, already like that in CoT.

BTW, the subject line of the post isn't strictly consistent with the OP, or with these tables:  DF isn't the most "hated", he'd the most "hateful"!  Very few other cults are Hostile to DF, but DF certainly likes to dish Hostile out to others...

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Ladygolem said:

That would make sense if the cult wasn't hostile to Waha's, which is also heavily shaman-focused.

Good point.

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

Looking through the cult compatibility table on p.311 of RQG, I noticed that Daka Fal's cult is marked as hostile to twelve different cults - far and away the most out of any of the cults listed.

Check the table carefully - it’s not symmetrical. Daka Fal is hostile to those cults, but far fewer cults are hostile back. They don’t seem to care much.

[Nick Brooke]

8 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Check the table carefully - it’s not symmetrical. Daka Fal is hostile to those cults, but far fewer cults are hostile back. They don’t seem to care much.

The Seven Mothers Cult works the other way around: we're very affable to people, as a rule, and look what we get in return...  

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, Alex said:

Yeah, that one breaks down for me too.  That also seems like a case where we'd sensibly have to have an analysis by Praxian, Orlanthi, "other ancestor worship, misc" takes, whether or not they end up differing in actual attitude.  Not a new mystery though, already like that in CoT.

BTW, the subject line of the post isn't strictly consistent with the OP, or with these tables:  DF isn't the most "hated", he'd the most "hateful"!  Very few other cults are Hostile to DF, but DF certainly likes to dish Hostile out to others...

Because your assumptions as to why are wrong.

[David Scott]

Quote

Daka Fal was named by the gods to be the Judge of the Dead, for it was he who first knew that power and who holds all of the secrets of Death. Cults of Prax.

Ever been given a job you had no choice of, by the people who made you then killed you, and because you were the first to die you were the best person for the job. Did I mention that It's also for eternity. As a bonus you also get to see all your dead children. Good job you didn't have any plans of your own.

I'd hate those people...

Daka Fal cultists are a great roleplaying opportunity. 

[Leingod]

Honestly it's kind of weird for me in the context that most peoples of Glorantha (as in the real world in ancient times) engage in some form of ancestor worship alongside the worship of gods, you usually don't have people choosing one or the other and one being hostile to the other. Like, if you're Orlanthi your ancestors all probably worshiped Orlanth too, so it just feels a little odd to me that the entity you worship your ancestors through is actually hostile to Orlanth and the shamans of said entity are as well as a general rule. I'd expect more just total neutrality/indifference to the gods at worst, personally.

[AlHazred]

IIRC, most of the Daka Fal guys in the early adventures were baboons, and they were always on the opposite side to the PCs. Like, Gringle's Pawnshop, they're basically trying to get their stuff back, and Gringle doesn't want to give it back to them. In the module, they're made out to be extremely sneaky and their plan is actually pretty clever. As a result, they got one over on our table of PCs, and that led to a great deal of hostility to baboons and/or Daka Fal cultists in general.

[Lordabdul]

15 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Check the table carefully - it’s not symmetrical.

Yeah I almost always forget this. And then I remember again and things make a lot more sense.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Leingod said:

Like, if you're Orlanthi your ancestors all probably worshiped Orlanth too, so it just feels a little odd to me that the entity you worship your ancestors through is actually hostile to Orlanth and the shamans of said entity are as well as a general rule. I'd expect more just total neutrality/indifference to the gods at worst, personally.

And the important target of your worship isn’t (I imagine) Daka Fal per se, but your ancestors in general. A lot of these were presumably good Orlanth-worshipers or whatever - surely that matters more to you than whether Daka Fal holds a grudge?

Even calling it ”the cult of Daka Fal” seems almost like God-Learnerism. Two different ancestor-worshipers probably wouldn’t think they belong to a unitary cult, especially not if the only ancestor they have in common as far as they know is Grandfather Mortal.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Sir_Godspeed]

6 hours ago, Leingod said:

Honestly it's kind of weird for me in the context that most peoples of Glorantha (as in the real world in ancient times) engage in some form of ancestor worship alongside the worship of gods, you usually don't have people choosing one or the other and one being hostile to the other. Like, if you're Orlanthi your ancestors all probably worshiped Orlanth too, so it just feels a little odd to me that the entity you worship your ancestors through is actually hostile to Orlanth and the shamans of said entity are as well as a general rule. I'd expect more just total neutrality/indifference to the gods at worst, personally.

Yeah, this whole conflict always seemed needlessly contrived to me, or a Gloranthan fixe idèe.

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

And the important target of your worship isn’t (I imagine) Daka Fal per se, but your ancestors in general. A lot of these were presumably good Orlanth-worshipers or whatever - surely that matters more to you than whether Daka Fal holds a grudge?

Even calling it ”the cult of Daka Fal” seems almost like God-Learnerism. Two different ancestor-worshipers probably wouldn’t think they belong to a unitary cult, especially not if the only ancestor they have in common as far as they know is Grandfather Mortal.

Yeah that's my current understanding of it too -- I don't know if it's correct, but it took me a while (and several chats on Discord or here) to wrap my head around Daka Fal. I don't think it's a very well explained cult in the book, but thankfully Scotty has been very helpful with info on it in the past. My best guess is that the "Daka Fal shamanic tradition" is really a bunch of methodologies and rituals and stuff for worshiping ancestors, and that's mostly what these shamans have in common. They share tips on drum tuning, cool dance moves, and nice smelling spices, so to speak.

Edited December 9, 2021 by lordabdul

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Leingod said:

Honestly it's kind of weird for me in the context that most peoples of Glorantha (as in the real world in ancient times) engage in some form of ancestor worship alongside the worship of gods, you usually don't have people choosing one or the other and one being hostile to the other. Like, if you're Orlanthi your ancestors all probably worshiped Orlanth too, so it just feels a little odd to me that the entity you worship your ancestors through is actually hostile to Orlanth and the shamans of said entity are as well as a general rule. I'd expect more just total neutrality/indifference to the gods at worst, personally.

Everybody in Glorantha will worship their ancestors, but you don't need to be an initiate to do that. People initiating to Daka Fal do so over the chance to join a deity's afterlife. Lay worship of Daka Fal doesn't mean that you don't get to interact with the spirits of your ancestors, it only means that you need a shaman as intermediary - not that different from initiates, who rarely have the magic to not require the shaman's service.

The parallels to the Malkioni are quite strong here, the main difference appears to be that the Daka Fal cult in Prax and Orlanthi society doesn't share the same creation myth.

There is a gray area where people have divine ancestors. While those aren't really subject to the Daka Fal rites, their lesser incarnations might, or they might be available as spirit cults with a very limited portion of the actual deity's magic.

 

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

And the important target of your worship isn’t (I imagine) Daka Fal per se, but your ancestors in general. A lot of these were presumably good Orlanth-worshipers or whatever - surely that matters more to you than whether Daka Fal holds a grudge?

Thunder Rebels suggested that the worship of Orlanth and Ernalda includes an active worship not of individual ancestors, but of the ancestors as a group, with the group collectively giving blessings or punishments for going againsst their precedence.

 

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Even calling it ”the cult of Daka Fal” seems almost like God-Learnerism. Two different ancestor-worshipers probably wouldn’t think they belong to a unitary cult, especially not if the only ancestor they have in common as far as they know is Grandfather Mortal.

There are cults with a clear ancestor worship element or requirement- Waha, Yelm - beyond the opt-in approach of most cults. Then there is Malkionism, taking Malkion Engr Aerlitsson as their common ancestor.

[Leingod]

It sort of makes me wonder what Daka Fal thinks of humans who receive divine worship as heroes or demigods from their descendants/kin group.

[Alex]

35 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

And the important target of your worship isn’t (I imagine) Daka Fal per se, but your ancestors in general.

But ancestors-in-general may not be the Daka Fal cult specifically.  In particular the Sartarite 'clan ancestors' stuff -- I'm guessing likely not, but who knows.

35 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

A lot of these were presumably good Orlanth-worshipers or whatever - surely that matters more to you than whether Daka Fal holds a grudge?

Yeah, it seems to me like an odd way of looking at it.  Obviously the Gloranthan gods are pretty highly personfied and anthropomorphicised -- within the limits of the Compromise.  But looking at Daka Fal that way seems a little niche and idiosyncratic -- why are we expressing our resentment of the gods by emulating DF in much the manner as if he were a god?  But maybe that's a secondary presentational detail.  I can certainly blame the gods for the fact that I have to die, and DF/some form of ancestor worship is a viable vehicle for that.  So same difference, arguably.

I certainly think there's plenty of scope for "the gods have a lot to answer for", "I don't have any more truck with the gods than I have to" and "Sacrifice to the gods?  That's taking food out my children's mouths!" sentiment, among the Heortlings and otherwise.  Look at what Heort himself had to say on those topic, it was a mouthful.  Actually, no, a whole series of mouthfuls!  So that's certainly a possible form of ancestor worship right there -- the spirit cult/heroforming exercise of backtalking great-great-great-great-great-grandpappy (or thereabouts).

35 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Even calling it ”the cult of Daka Fal” seems almost like God-Learnerism. Two different ancestor-worshipers probably wouldn’t think they belong to a unitary cult, especially not if the only ancestor they have in common as far as they know is Grandfather Mortal.

It's God-Learnerism either way, of course, whether of the RQ3 cut-and-dry schematic abstraction sort, or of the more 'tash-twirling "bwah-ha-ha-hah, let's dangerously experimentally equate these two entities and see what happens!" stuff.  Probably two different schools that wrote snarky peer reviews about each other, back in the day.  So whatever we say about this stuff, really, it's pot-on-kettle crime.  And Praxians and Orlanthi are quite a bit more related, genealogically and mythically, than the bare minimum "Runic Adam" connection.

[Joerg]

18 minutes ago, Alex said:

I certainly think there's plenty of scope for "the gods have a lot to answer for", "I don't have any more truck with the gods than I have to" and "Sacrifice to the gods?  That's taking food out my children's mouths!" sentiment, among the Heortlings and otherwise.  Look at what Heort himself had to say on those topic, it was a mouthful.  Actually, no, a whole series of mouthfuls!  So that's certainly a possible form of ancestor worship right there -- the spirit cult/heroforming exercise of backtalking great-great-great-great-great-grandpappy (or thereabouts).

In practice, sacrifices to the gods are a way to share the posh food with those in the clan who don't usually have access to it, so it is a very privileged (i.e. cattle-owning) approach to regard the required sacriifices as an economical loss.

Abd yes, a portion of the beast slaughtered or the wine offered will be destroyed or spilled as offering to the deity, but its not like an entire bull is cremated - pragmatically, mainly the inedibe stuff and possibly some taboo parts of the beast get burned.

Sacrificial worship is a quid-pro-quo approach. Sometimes the worshippers are paying forward, but just as often they are paying back for blessings received.

Heort was a shaman, a practitioner of quid-pro-quo on a personal level, eye-to-eye rather than looking upward. And I think he instilled quite a lot of that into his followers, alongside the "looking up" approach of Hantrafal. That may have been part of his trouble with Orlanth, and possibly why he died of the Lightning Bolt. (Or maybe he chose liberation? His personal encounter with the Second Son may have pushed him farther into the mystics' camp than those who just relive the I Fought We Won.)