Daka Fal and Broos

[Kargzant]

I was reading Cults of Terror today and I noticed that Daka Fal gives cultists of Thed Summon Ancestor. What I'm wondering is if it's possible for Broos to engage in ancestor worship in addition to the worship of Thed or Mallia. Does Daka Fal have any specific prohibitions about being worshiped by Chaotic creatures? How far do the ties between Daka Fal and Thed go?

[metcalph]

Broos worship Daka Fal in pretty much the same way that the Trolls worship him.  They can summon their ancestors all the way back up to Thed. but not Ragnalar (Dead) or Wakboth (Indiposed).

Since they are chaotic, the ancestors are pretty much bad tempered about their continued self-exitsence and will only be deterred from attacking the shaman with an opprtonunity for more mayhem.

[dumuzid]

That does give a broo shaman the potential to contact ancestors from before the Turning, when they were only wild Fertility people rather than a parasitic Chaos species.  assuming those pre-chaotic ancestors didn't drown themselves in oblivion out of shame long, long ago

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, dumuzid said:

That does give a broo shaman the potential to contact ancestors from before the Turning, when they were only wild Fertility people rather than a parasitic Chaos species.  assuming those pre-chaotic ancestors didn't drown themselves in oblivion out of shame long, long ago

the question then... "when they were" ==> they were not broos but human ? beast ? or half beast half human, with a "standard" reproduction cycle ?

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, Kargzant said:

I was reading Cults of Terror today and I noticed that Daka Fal gives cultists of Thed Summon Ancestor.

Yes, but it dates from before she was chaotic and is one-use (in CoT)

8 hours ago, Kargzant said:

What I'm wondering is if it's possible for Broos to engage in ancestor worship in addition to the worship of Thed or Mallia.

Yes, they would join Daka Fal, in this case Daka Fal would be a rebranded Thed.

8 hours ago, Kargzant said:

Does Daka Fal have any specific prohibitions about being worshiped by Chaotic creatures? How far do the ties between Daka Fal and Thed go?

Daka Fal in this case is just the source of the spell. Although it says in CoT's cult compatibility chart that they are associates.

 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the question then... "when they were" ==> they were not broos but human ? beast ? or half beast half human, with a "standard" reproduction cycle ?

It's in CoT, after Thed birthed the Devil. As to what they were, Ragnaglar was a storm god and Thed a fertility goddess, I'd suggest a goat people, much like the sons of storm bull, but with goat heads. In an early draft of Nomad Gods, in a myth, it's implied that Ragnagar is a defender of Eiritha, so Thed could be one of her daughters. 

[Joerg]

53 minutes ago, David Scott said:

It's in CoT, after Thed birthed the Devil. As to what they were, Ragnaglar was a storm god and Thed a fertility goddess, I'd suggest a goat people, much like the sons of storm bull, but with goat heads. In an early draft of Nomad Gods, in a myth, it's implied that Ragnagar is a defender of Eiritha, so Thed could be one of her daughters. 

The pre-chaotic (and presumably pre-parasitic) Broo may have been quite similar to the Minotaurs, another hominoid herd beast creature of unusual fertility, only based on bovines rather than caprines. Depending on which sources you read, minotaurs may have fertile minotaur offspring from cattle and human (-shaped) females (including nymphs), or among their own species if they find a female specimen.

There are a couple of exclusively or at least predominantly male species in the canon. Unicorns are an all-male species, and so are yellow elves. Broos are predominantly male, and so are satyrs and minotaurs, and probably Brown Elves. The ancient Logicians of the West were predominantly male, too, but after two or three generations of breeding with local (lesser) goddesses there was a roughly equal number of male and female births. (But then, quite a few of the Brithini may be third generation, and if a new generation of Brithini is bred in Arolanit, chances are that they still are a mid range single digit generation since the Founders. Hrestol was third generation through his paternal lineage, a great-grandson of Malkion Engr Aerlitsson.)

Then there are exclusively or predominantly female species, like nymphs, Elura fox-women, swan-maidens. And at least one such humn culture, the Marazi amazons of Trowjang. The daughters of Moonson might be a similar bunch, although they marry outward, converting the nobility of the Pelorian elite into great-grandchildren of the Red Moon. But then, these all-female species may be capable of pathenogenesis to breed true, and able to breed fertile offspring with whichever male partner they accept.

Last not least there may be sexually ambiguous species, like the Niiads, the demigod ancestors of the modern Triolini.

[Kargzant]

Thanks for the answers, all. I just thought of another question about Broos and other Chaotic creatures - do they have Heroquests? Which gods would have the most relevant Heroquests for a potential campaign baddie? And what kinds of things could a Broo hero accomplish through successive Heroquests? I'm planning out a campaign and I want to think of ways to best use Chaotic creatures.

[soltakss]

14 hours ago, Kargzant said:

I was reading Cults of Terror today and I noticed that Daka Fal gives cultists of Thed Summon Ancestor. What I'm wondering is if it's possible for Broos to engage in ancestor worship in addition to the worship of Thed or Mallia. Does Daka Fal have any specific prohibitions about being worshiped by Chaotic creatures? How far do the ties between Daka Fal and Thed go?

Broos worship Thed as their Ancestress and the association with Daka Fal reflects that.

37 minutes ago, Kargzant said:

I just thought of another question about Broos and other Chaotic creatures - do they have Heroquests?

Why yes, they do.

37 minutes ago, Kargzant said:

Which gods would have the most relevant Heroquests for a potential campaign baddie?

Basically, look at the Mythos of any Chaotic Deity and those actions form the basis of HeroQuests.

38 minutes ago, Kargzant said:

And what kinds of things could a Broo hero accomplish through successive Heroquests?

Broos can use HeroQuests from Thed and Mallia, fairly easily. So, spreading of disease is a good one, asking for Justice from Orlanth is a dangerous one. Answering the Summons of Evil can be a common one, but is really dangerous.

At some point, I need to go through all the Mythos of the Chaos Cults and pull out the HeroQuests.

 

[dumuzid]

3 hours ago, Kargzant said:

Thanks for the answers, all. I just thought of another question about Broos and other Chaotic creatures - do they have Heroquests? Which gods would have the most relevant Heroquests for a potential campaign baddie? And what kinds of things could a Broo hero accomplish through successive Heroquests? I'm planning out a campaign and I want to think of ways to best use Chaotic creatures.

It's not something a campaign's villain would use on their own, but one option for a broo heroquest is the Cleansed One story:

He was a broo who became aware of the horror inherent to the broo condition, and sought to drown himself in the Zola Fel river to end his existence.  Rather than drown him, Zola Fel gave the broo the ability to walk on the riverbed and breath water.  The broo followed the river to the sea, and somewhere out in the deeps he was purged of his Chaos taint by the powers of Water.  He is now a demigod of the Zola Fel, and incarnates the river's power to oppose Chaos.

If your heroes can help bring about an existential crisis in this broo villain, the Cleansed One offers them the potential for healing and redemption.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Kargzant said:

Thanks for the answers, all. I just thought of another question about Broos and other Chaotic creatures - do they have Heroquests?

Ralzakark is an excellent heroquester, I'm sure.

[scott-martin]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

Daka Fal would be a rebranded Thed.

That transforms her story for me. I initially wondered about using the spell to summon intermediate "ancestors on the maternal line" (larva hosts) but the motives there quickly became gruesome. In general it strikes me as an avenue to wreak revenge on the forebears for ever having been born in the first place . . . not the most expansive or comfortable symbolic economy but one Daka Fal can tolerate. Away from my books right now so I don't know if Daka Fal is open to a similar association with Bloody Tusk.

[Kargzant]

3 hours ago, dumuzid said:

It's not something a campaign's villain would use on their own, but one option for a broo heroquest is the Cleansed One story:

He was a broo who became aware of the horror inherent to the broo condition, and sought to drown himself in the Zola Fel river to end his existence.  Rather than drown him, Zola Fel gave the broo the ability to walk on the riverbed and breath water.  The broo followed the river to the sea, and somewhere out in the deeps he was purged of his Chaos taint by the powers of Water.  He is now a demigod of the Zola Fel, and incarnates the river's power to oppose Chaos.

If your heroes can help bring about an existential crisis in this broo villain, the Cleansed One offers them the potential for healing and redemption.

You know, I can see a tough but non-influential Broo deciding that their gang-mates have no future and looking to be cleansed so they can survive. Broos as a whole are going to be the bad guys as long as they follow their gods, but the idea of a path to redemption for some disillusioned Broos is appealing to me.

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 hours ago, scott-martin said:

That transforms her story for me. I initially wondered about using the spell to summon intermediate "ancestors on the maternal line" (larva hosts) but the motives there quickly became gruesome. In general it strikes me as an avenue to wreak revenge on the forebears for ever having been born in the first place . . . not the most expansive or comfortable symbolic economy but one Daka Fal can tolerate. Away from my books right now so I don't know if Daka Fal is open to a similar association with Bloody Tusk.

don't see the word "Daka Fal" here as the god's name, god with a will, morale values, etc.. but more as a "yard" (where souls should go) and a "meta pattern" of rune powers combination (how to contact the ancestors) and you will not have any "association" issue.

that's something I use with Daka Fal and any pantheon. As he is hostile / not friendly with about any god, I would have an issue to play a good worshipper of both a god cult and an ancestor cult. Splitting the sentient great spirit (god ?) Daka Fal and the "things" he represents helps a lot. From my perspective DF (the character) should not be contacted by the broos (and what broo will contact the one who will judge them in few weeks.. months.. years... for all their chaotic deeds ?)

[Darius West]

On 12/26/2021 at 10:29 PM, David Scott said:

It's in CoT, after Thed birthed the Devil. As to what they were, Ragnaglar was a storm god and Thed a fertility goddess, I'd suggest a goat people, much like the sons of storm bull, but with goat heads. In an early draft of Nomad Gods, in a myth, it's implied that Ragnagar is a defender of Eiritha, so Thed could be one of her daughters. 

In the initiation myths of the Sartarites it is mentioned that Orlanth, Urox, Humakt and another unnamed god were taken when young and initiated by hostile foreign gods.  The unnamed god was taken to the Sex Pit and there he was driven mad.  This deity was almost certainly Ragnaglar, who was listed as a son of Umath prior.

Thed is mentioned as having wanted to seduce Orlanth. She came to his bed disguised as Ernalda, but Orlanth had foreseen the deception and disguised unmarried Urox in his own place.  Urox wasn't gentle, and Thed staggered away vowing revenge, only to meet Urox's sex-mad brother Ragnaglar.  It is possible that Malia was already with them as a disease of the mind at this stage.  Obviously they form the Unholy Trio and taint the Primal Plasma releasing Chaos into the world.

Anyhow, goats are tied to Chaos in Glorantha, but there was likely a period before the release of Chaos where Ragnaglar and Thed produced the Broos as a non-chaotic race, in the period before Thed and Ragnaglar conspired with Malia.  During this time, Broos were probably akin to Satyrs (who are half-deer, not half-goat in Glorantha), and therefore like other beast folk could claim kinship with Grandfather Mortal as much as a Minotaur or Baboon and thus with Daka Fal after Grandfather Mortal's death.  The point is, I suppose, that everybody has ancestors, even Broos whose reproductive cycle resembles that of a wasp more than that of a mammal.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

In the initiation myths of the Sartarites it is mentioned that Orlanth, Urox, Humakt and another unnamed god were taken when young and initiated by hostile foreign gods.  The unnamed god was taken to the Sex Pit and there he was driven mad.  This deity was almost certainly Ragnaglar, who was listed as a son of Umath prior.

That myth also names Vadrus, and puts him into the pit filled with the seas, which he churns up.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Thed is mentioned as having wanted to seduce Orlanth.

Do you have a source for that myth?

[davecake]

I generally take Daka Fal as the local ‘flavour’ of generic animist Ancestor Worship, and many other cultures (and some races) have a version of Ancestor Worship that has more or less the same form and spells. Whether they are all really the same deity, or this is a deeper mystery, is another question and I am sure there are many God Learner theses on the question. But they have a few local different myths, maybe different likely associates, but the same basic cult structure and spells. 
Various local versions include Daka Fal in Prax, Darhudan among the Heortlings, Old Man and Old Woman among the Hsunchen, Iste in the East Isles, and Ebe in Kralorela.

These deities are all listed in the Guide with the same Runes, and all are ‘owners’ of the Man rune, which is rather a hint they are the same at the core - Grandfather Mortal (and Grandmother too), who reproduces and has children to create mortals, then later is killed. 

This isn’t all Ancestor Worship, by any means - in some cultures, they evolve non-animist ancestor worship, and this can differ. The ancient Heortlings worshipped the children of Vingkotlings as tribal ancestors. I’m pretty sure Aptanace the sage is civilised theist ancestor worship in Kralorela (with his 700 children as sub-cults that offer a little crafter magic etc). The ancient Seshnelans are said to have done something similar (and were just a few generations from Demi-gods, so it really worked well for them), something similar may still go on. But it’s a very primal thing that I think any shaman may be able to start if they really try. 

Also, I think in practice Ancestor Worshippers mostly function with each family of ancestor worshippers more or less separate, no ‘cult hierarchy’ or structure. Their ethos and expectations can differ significantly. And they definitely don’t always work together, sometimes it’s Hatfields and McCoys with feuds transcending death. 

Chaotic ancestor worshippers are just the same - a family of ogres might know all their ogre ancestors, and get good help from them (the ancestors probably like a little blood sacrifice and to enjoy a little incarnation for food and torture every now and then, but that’s expected). Broo, though - they probably don’t know the names etc of many of their ancestors, and they tend to hate and fear each other anyway, so summoning random ancestors is dangerous and unpleasant. Broo being the hateful desperate beings they are, they probably still make it work somehow. 

NB: it’s unusual to combine sorcery and ancestor worship, at least the shamanic form (and would be pretty heretical to many modern Malkioni). But it can work surprisingly well! Let Magus Great Uncle incarnate for a few hours to cast a few spells, some enchanting maybe, share a bit of wisdom… 

[metcalph]

30 minutes ago, davecake said:

NB: it’s unusual to combine sorcery and ancestor worship, at least the shamanic form (and would be pretty heretical to many modern Malkioni). But it can work surprisingly well! Let Magus Great Uncle incarnate for a few hours to cast a few spells, some enchanting maybe, share a bit of wisdom… 

The Seshnegi Nobility worship their ancestors and consider themselves modern Malkioni.  Their Zzaburi have better things to do than argue.  

[davecake]

 

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Seshnegi Nobility worship their ancestors and consider themselves modern Malkioni.  Their Zzaburi have better things to do than argue.  

And the Loskalmi, and probably most non-Seshnelan Malkioni really, would scoff. Which is why I said ‘many’, not ‘all’ or even ‘most’. 

[Kargzant]

On 12/30/2021 at 2:14 AM, davecake said:

Chaotic ancestor worshippers are just the same - a family of ogres might know all their ogre ancestors, and get good help from them (the ancestors probably like a little blood sacrifice and to enjoy a little incarnation for food and torture every now and then, but that’s expected). 

Spoiler

That reminds me of the Ogre smith from Snake Pipe Hollow. He worshiped his ancestor through Cacodemon, but I guess there's no reason that Daka Fal wouldn't work for that.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Kargzant
Adding Spoilers

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

 

And the Loskalmi, and probably most non-Seshnelan Malkioni really, would scoff. Which is why I said ‘many’, not ‘all’ or even ‘most’. 

I think the Loskalmi would probably encourage their farmers to worship their ancestors (to trample Seshnegi values).  Which leaves who else in terms of the modern Malkioni? 

[Alex]

On 12/29/2021 at 6:13 AM, Darius West said:

Thed is mentioned as having wanted to seduce Orlanth.

I believe in another thread you said this was in one of the BoDRs, but I don't believe you were any more specific than that.

On 12/29/2021 at 6:13 AM, Darius West said:

The point is, I suppose, that everybody has ancestors, even Broos whose reproductive cycle resembles that of a wasp more than that of a mammal.

Possibly something of a combo of the two, as it certainly seems that the "maternal" line contributes to the nature of the offspring.  Of course, whether this is anything remotely like "ancestry" much less "genetics" (or whatever Glorantha is using as an analogue for that) another matter.

10 hours ago, davecake said:

Chaotic ancestor worshippers are just the same - a family of ogres might know all their ogre ancestors, and get good help from them (the ancestors probably like a little blood sacrifice and to enjoy a little incarnation for food and torture every now and then, but that’s expected).

Yes, I think this seems functionally like DF, or "generic RQ3 Ancestor Worship (TM)", so whether you say it's Daka Fal per se, or that it's "collateral worship" of the same entity, or just a game-mechanical artifice for something that's not theism at all, or it's explicitly recognised as the same thing, all seems   The Broo case seems much more distinct from this.  As does for example the Kyger Litor one, not in this case for any sort of explicitly "biological", but because of different cultural practices.  "Father's blood is short and weak", and that sort of malarkey.

[davecake]

On 12/31/2021 at 2:09 AM, metcalph said:

think the Loskalmi would probably encourage their farmers to worship their ancestors (to trample Seshnegi values). 

I do not think annoying the Seshnegi is a motivating factor for the Loskalmi. Though possibly the other way around. The Loskalmi are even more down on animism than the Seshnegi (the Furlandan school treat it as spiritual disease that they must guard against). 

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 12/30/2021 at 9:14 AM, davecake said:

I generally take Daka Fal as the local ‘flavour’ of generic animist Ancestor Worship, and many other cultures (and some races) have a version of Ancestor Worship that has more or less the same form and spells. Whether they are all really the same deity, or this is a deeper mystery, is another question and I am sure there are many God Learner theses on the question. But they have a few local different myths, maybe different likely associates, but the same basic cult structure and spells. 

Yeah, speaking personally as a newer fan of Glorantha, it feels a bit unnecessarily specific to bring up the Praxian term for institutionalized ancestor worship (ie. Daka Fal) when discussing ancestor worship in general, but I recognize that this is an artifact of how RuneQuest publications have taken form.

[Alex]

19 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yeah, speaking personally as a newer fan of Glorantha, it feels a bit unnecessarily specific to bring up the Praxian term for institutionalized ancestor worship (ie. Daka Fal) when discussing ancestor worship in general, but I recognize that this is an artifact of how RuneQuest publications have taken form.

While my personal preference is generally for the lower-sodium options on the Monomythic buffet, bear in mind there's scope for actual cultural contact here.  In particular between Sartar and Prax, so that's likely a very generally accepted correspondence.  And via the God Learners, of course:  not always right, but rarely bashful in having spread their ideas around!