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are these PCs good Orlanthi from a priest of Orlanth perspective ?


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let's say You, as the GM, are an Orlanth priest in Sartar

then You-the priest welcomes in your community Tom and Jerry who are two inititates of  Orlanth.

They can be farmer, fisher, crafter, herder... what you want

They are outsiders and don't know each other

They are skilled and usefull for the clan

You-the GM know that Tom and Jerry will never do any heroic deed, just do their job more or less like any other people

 

But after two years, you-the priest discover that Tom has some ... weirdness and Jerry is just like the other members of the community

What do you-the priest think and do about Tom if :

 

a) Tom smokes a lot of hazia, some say he is able to discorporate, and speak sometimes in auld wyrmish... No one understand what he does, or what he says.

OR

b) Tom has a friend who is clearly a lunar sorcerer. His friend has never done anything against your clan, he even gave one time some food to a poor hungry clanmate

OR

c) Tom like to speak, walk, drink, with these few praxian barbarian who, sometimes disturb the community

OR

d)a combination of (a,b,c)

 

I would say that I, as a GM-priest :

if I play a very very generous priest (so never in all cases) I will tell to my clan that Orlanth had a lot of strange friends (the strange gods episod, blablabla)

If I play a very very bad priest (sometimes but not a lot) I will tell to my clan that Tom is a dangerous blasphemer or traitor or what you want, this is just a question of time before Orlanth send his spirits of reprisals so we, as good Orlanthi, we have to act, protect our clan, our wives our children. We must take our responsabilities as Orlanth did. So kill him (or ban him if I feel the people would disagree)

If I play an average priest I will tell that Tom did nothing against our clan, but we must be aware and suspicious (a,b), and ask him to not pursuit in this way (a,b sometimes c) or leave the clan

 

 

 

 

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Why bother to introduce an NPC like Tom and then have them lynched? Let Tom kick off some plot lines and then the PCs may have some views on what they want to do to them — buy them a drink, maybe, as Tom made their lives more  interesting/adventurous.

——————————————————————

Oops! You said PCs, not NPCs. My mistake.

Are you really thinking of having a community leader succeed in lynching player characters for being insufficiently heroic? Or are you just thinking of having them try and fail to light a fire under lazy players? Or … ?

Edited by mfbrandi
misreading of OP

NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

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What does the clan chieftain say? "Kings should rule, because Priests can make big mistakes" is one of the lessons we Orlanthi learned, back in the Second Age.

Also, that guy "Jerry" seems suspiciously normal... Why would you even mention him...?

(investigates, vigorously)

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7 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Also, that guy "Jerry" seems suspiciously normal... Why would you even mention him...?

(investigates, vigorously)

lol you are right, as any lunar infiltrator 😛

more seriously , related to other posts ( normality, good orlanthi, etc..) my point is to compare  two people with the same background , but one with some strange activity (I think /hope that my 3 proposals are not part of an average sartarite, if not, I can only conclude I have understood nothing about dragon pass)

Will this strange guy have more difficulties in the cult than the other one just because his strangeness.

Is the cult less tolerant than the god ? I think yes but, as I am sceptical, I prefer to have other views

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6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

let's say You, as the GM, are an Orlanth priest in Sartar

then You-the priest welcomes in your community Tom and Jerry who are two inititates of Orlanth.

They can be farmer, fisher, crafter, herder... what you want

They are outsiders and don't know each other

They are skilled and usefull for the clan

You-the GM know that Tom and Jerry will never do any heroic deed, just do their job more or less like any other people

But after two years, you-the priest discover that Tom has some ... weirdness and Jerry is just like the other members of the community

What do you-the priest think and do about Tom if :

To be honest once my players go home, I don't continue running the game for myself. I always use the DramaSystem rule of the GM should never hold a conversation with them-self.

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But after two years, you-the priest discover that Tom has some ... weirdness and Jerry is just like the other members of the community

What do you-the priest think and do about Tom if :

a) Tom smokes a lot of hazia, some say he is able to discorporate, and speak sometimes in auld wyrmish... No one understand what he does, or what he says.

OR b) Tom has a friend who is clearly a lunar sorcerer. His friend has never done anything against your clan, he even gave one time some food to a poor hungry clanmate

OR c) Tom like to speak, walk, drink, with these few praxian barbarian who, sometimes disturb the community

OR d)a combination of (a,b,c)

a) leave him alone and never tell the players about him - he's clearly a looser. You (the GM priest) should talk to his family and get him the help he needs.

b) clearly a lunar sorcerer - Did Tom tell you that? if so see above. Otherwise if after two years you've only just spotted the Lunar sorcerer, your community has bigger problems.

c) If it's that damn Storm Bull Praxian Hateful Kalama and her friends, well that's fine. She's a respected member of the community and a lay member of Orlanth to boot. Although of late she's been trying to introduce cow wrestling under the auspices of it being a Praxian sport. But that aside she does make sure all of the Praxian beasts in the village are well looked after. Come to think of it she sounds weirder than Tom. 

d) Unlikely as Hateful Kalama will have spotted the Lunar sorcerer long before the GM has (and murdered them), she also always has the best hazia. If Team Bull hang out with Tom, he's clearly cool and the GM priest is wrong. 

Edited by David Scott
Oh well, failed to notice PCs in title
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If Tom is an Orlanth adventurous initiate, and sometimes goes away for some weeks with his strange friends, but in the process either a) some menace to the clan is solved or b) they bring back loot or some other resource that benefits the clan, he will be considered as a good Adventurous type, and indeed people will call for him when any stranger approaches.

But if he is mostly a Barntar guy, why is he spending so much time with weird folk, rather than his clan mates? He should be helping the barn raisings, the militia practice and his turn at malting, while needling his aunts to find him a wife? Suspicious, suspicious I say. 

For me it is a matter of social expectations. The expectations for an Adventurous are not the same as for a Barntari. Player characters should be allowed, unless you enjoy the drama and heartache, to have their social place accepted.

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Here is  one way to approach it:

What are the functions of a priest?  Intermediary between man and god, to run and teach worship. To lead people to be better Orlanthi.  To teach cult lore and cult magic to cult members, and occasionally to members of associated cults.

Anything else is a function of your priest's personality and experience, his backstory, and should be a part of the story you want to tell and the adventure you want to push the PCs into.  So first of all, what is that?  

Now as for the secondary issue, the priestly functions: as far as I can see what matters in this case is to be better Orlanthi.  So my thoughts on your cases:

(A) The hazia smoker and possible shamanist: Hazia is a bad habit and shamanism is a different path (though also useful) so helpfully steer him to divine magic.  As I understand it a shaman is not going to make Wind Lord, so not a path for a priest  to encourage.   

(B) The Lunar influence is counter to the cult compatibility table.  Steer him away from this dangerous cult.  Maybe divination to investigate whether it is a real threat.  Or depending on the date, if the Lunars have banned Orlanth then your priest is late,  and this Lunar sorcerer should have met a bad end yesterday, why hasn't the priest arranged that?  This Lunar feeding someone is just a Lunar snare, and it cannot redeem him.

(C) The Praxians may be a little rough but so is Orlanth, cult compatibility is OK, Orlanth pursued and gained by a wide circle of friends, so no cult problem here. We are not monotheistic, no problem associating.   Rowdyism may be a clan problem but is not a cult problem.  Let the clan chief worry about it.  

 

 

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
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3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But after two years, you-the priest discover that Tom has some ... weirdness and Jerry is just like the other members of the community

What do you-the priest think and do about Tom if :

 

a) Tom smokes a lot of hazia, some say he is able to discorporate, and speak sometimes in auld wyrmish... No one understand what he does, or what he says.

OR

b) Tom has a friend who is clearly a lunar sorcerer. His friend has never done anything against your clan, he even gave one time some food to a poor hungry clanmate

OR

c) Tom like to speak, walk, drink, with these few praxian barbarian who, sometimes disturb the community

OR

d)a combination of (a,b,c)

 

a) "Tom smokes a lot of hazia and sometimes talks funny when he's under the influence? Perhaps he's besieged by spirits, let's find a shaman to take a look at him." 
b) (post-Dragonrise) "Tom's hanging around with a Lunar sorcerer? You sure you're not having a visionary experience? Didn't we drive out all the Lunar sorcerers and their talk of 'sign and signified' and 'simulacra' and 'patriarchy' and whatnot?" (pre-Dragonrise) "Ah. Let's keep Tom away from Tammy the loudmouth, then. Don't want her catching trouble for her loose talk."
c) "Well, bright side is the Praxians only want cattle for meat, can't keep cows out on the plaines! Downside is if the Praxians take any of our cattle we're never seeing any of them again." 
d) "Folks, I'm starting to think that Tom... may be a protagonist." 

More generally, I don't tend to run cultures in Glorantha as inherently xenophobic, so my focus is more on the immediate "what does this activity represent physically" more than "is Tom bringing in some foreign gods?"

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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

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3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

then You-the priest welcomes in your community Tom and Jerry who are two inititates of  Orlanth.

As game master, these two only exist in my game as plot seeds or plot complications. That's the only reason I "welcomed them in" and it means I want them to cause the players trouble or at least distract them . . . it's your game, go with your gut and your dramatic needs.

Besides, the priest welcomed them in the first place so either there was no apparent problem with them then OR the priest is now having second thoughts and is trying to find a reason to rescind that welcome. In this scenario, I think the priest has graduated to the role of plot complication. Why is this becoming a problem now? Was the priest busy or distracted earlier and is now paying attention? Or have Tom and Jerry changed their behavior recently and now need to be corrected? Or has the priest's motivation changed, perhaps in pursuit of a useful scapegoat to cover mistakes elsewhere or simply to close the door on heterodox influences?

If your game does not provide intuitive answers to these questions that get the players involved in MGF drama, I suggest having the priest approach the players (possibly in a night of hard drinking) and ask them to talk with Tom and Jerry before making the ultimate decision on whether to tolerate their behavior or not. Then these matters of pragmatic theology become the players' problem, which is often the key to MGF.

IMG the situation you've set up makes me suspicious of the priest unless there are extenuating circumstances (omens, dreams) visible to the players as well. Part of the quasi-utopian joy of pretending to be members of an Orlanth community in the first place is that they make room for eccentrics with weird ideas and unusual lifestyles. Tom and/or Jerry may simply be part of the "Eurmal 1%," for example, and then their behavior is ritually tolerated. (Maybe the priest needs a trickster to accomplish all the rites, but I digress.) If the priest is trying to shut that down, this has become a problem for adventurers to correct . . . and just maybe Tom and Jerry emerge as adventurer types themselves, it's just that they've been having different adventures than the ones the players have experienced until now.

 

singer sing me a given

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51 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

(B) The Lunar influence is counter to the cult compatibility table.  Steer him away from this dangerous cult.  Maybe divination to investigate whether it is a real threat.  Or depending on the date, if the Lunars have banned Orlanth then your priest is late,  and this Lunar sorcerer should have met a bad end yesterday, why hasn't the priest arranged that?  This Lunar feeding someone is just a Lunar snare, and it cannot redeem him.

Or the divination might show that while the Lunar way is antithetical to the world-preserving magics of Orlanth, these specific Lunars are helpful in the greater picture.

Which might be why Tom (whose consumption of Hazia etc. seems to indicate that he is looking out for otherworldly advice himself) does associate with these weirdos in the first place.

How reliable can such a drug-induced vision be? Or how likely would millions follow a merchant writing down the words of god available only to him?

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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Let's strip away the cruft, and get to the nub of it. You seem to be asking, "As GM, should I penalise my players for playing unusual characters?" The answer depends on what kind of game you want to run.

If you like boringly conformist "adventurers" who don't explore the world or develop interesting quirks, then certainly you can crack down on any weird behaviour, unusual associates and the like. Tell them the Sartarite Orlanthi are a tediously conservative, narrow-minded people, and they'll have to conform to the local knuckle-draggers' expectations or fear mobs with torches and pitchforks. Read those alarming passages of old QuestWorlds books that have Orlanthi murdering babies for superstitious reasons: rub it in.

If you want happy players, though, I'd suggest not doing that. After all, one of the joys of RuneQuest is the freedom to develop characters in unique directions, embracing foreign notions, weird powers, and unusual complications or entanglements growing out of past adventures. Why not embrace it?

And of course you can play it both ways. Jerry will likely make it to the Clan Ring before Tom does, because Jerry keeps his head down and is seen as reliable, while Tom is away with the fairies (metaphorically speaking). You could use Passions to develop this: if you're skiving, hanging out with nogoodniks and generally behaving disreputably, take a hit to your Loyalty (Clan); if you're denouncing troublemakers to the Local Authorities, get a free tick. But if your players aren't interested in conforming, and you don't want to crush them for it, why worry about "realism"? You're playing a fantasy role-playing game, after all. Cut them some slack.

This might help: in the Greydog Campaign, we had one prominent GM PC peer who role-modelled "admirable behaviour." The rest of us spent our share of the loot on training, spells and armour? He spent it on cows. When we got home to the village, you can guess who everyone was impressed by. That was a better way of teaching us what to do than saying, "Orlanthi value cattle." (But we were all sword-fanatic weirdoes with a sideline in newt- and rabbit-worship, and some real odd 'uns in the party as well)

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First up, I (the reader of the forum post) am confused about the status of Tom&Jerry.  Are they NPCs under GM control, or PC's?

If they are PC's, I will guide my responses accordingly.  If they are NPCs, they are there to be rivals/foes/allies/obstacles/foils to the PC's (sometimes all of those), and that calls for a different treatment.

 

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

...

Will this strange guy have more difficulties in the cult than the other one just because his strangeness.

...

You, the GM, are playing not only the priest, but also the Rex, the clan Ring, and every other clan-member from the lowliest stickpicker to the highest-priest-who-isn't-the-Rex-or-the-aforementioned-priest (that's likely the Ernaldan priestess) and everyone in between:  everyone who isn't a PC.

There will be lots of different opinions about Tom.  They will likely run the gamut from "boon (smoking) companion" to "we may need to kill or drive off this dangerous outsider" (with a fair bit of "eh" shrug-and-move-on that likely forms the majority opinion).  The clan, as a whole, may not even have a distinct position.  The clan also may have a collective opinion... and the priest may have a different position, either more conservative & distrustful or more liberal & open-minded.  NPCs who are ex-Adventurers are likely more open-minded, having seen other Toms on their travels (and Dicks, and Harrys).

Outside of his oddities, how does Tom act?  Is he reliable about showing up to barn-raisings & moots & other clan activities?  Is he a reliable worker/contributor?  Can the Clan count on Tom?

A small insular hill-clan is likely to be just that -- more insular.  Tom will have more trouble there.  A clan who maintains a stead right on one of Sartar's Royal Roads, and has daily interactions with merchants/travelers/strangers/weirdo's there... that clan is likely to be more open-minded.  Tom won't get much notice.

 

Also, this:

1 hour ago, Eff said:

...
d) "Folks, I'm starting to think that Tom... may be a protagonist." 
...

So *very* much this.  I-the-player rather expect that I-the-GM have created Tom as an unusual stand-out specifically to be of interest/use/etc; to attract PC attention.  Tom is a clue, or a quest-giver, or a key NPC-Adventurer they need to drag into Adventuring, or etc...

Edited by g33k

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12 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

The title of the post says they're PCs, @g33k. Let's assume they're PCs.

Yes, but then the OP specifies that they are "... what you [ed: presumably, from context, the GM] want" & later "You-the GM know that Tom and Jerry will never do any heroic deed, just do their job more or less like any other people" which is pretty much the definition of an NPC.

Hence my confusion.

Edited by g33k
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27 minutes ago, g33k said:

Yes, but then the OP specifies that they are "... what you [ed: presumably, from context, the GM] want" & later "You-the GM know that Tom and Jerry will never do any heroic deed, just do their job more or less like any other people" which is pretty much the definition of an NPC.

Hence my confusion.

yep sorry for that, I wanted to avoid the bias of Argrath, of divination, etc...

Argrath fits a)b)c), etc... but Argrath fits the full Orlanth way (as Jeff answered about the myth with the strange gods, etc...)

The point is to "play" a priest who knows nothing else than what I described

 

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"Might conservative, traditionalist Storm Voices think Argrath was introducing dangerous novelties to Sartar?" Yes, absolutely they might. And if they caused him difficulties, the Prince might send a posse from his Barbarian Horde to camp out on their tula and explain how things work. Violence is always an option, and Might makes right.

Look, we know some traditional old-school Macedonians thought Alexander was going whacko out East. This is not rocket science. Re-read Campbell?

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28 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

"Might conservative, traditionalist Storm Voices think Argrath was introducing dangerous novelties to Sartar?" Yes, absolutely they might. And if they caused him difficulties, the Prince might send a posse from his Barbarian Horde to camp out on their tula and explain how things work. Violence is always an option, and Might makes right.

Look, we know some traditional old-school Macedonians thought Alexander was going whacko out East. This is not rocket science. Re-read Campbell?

Yeah, I think the OP (Original Poster) laid out several viable options in the OP (Original Post):

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

... I would say that I, as a GM-priest :

if I play a very very generous priest (so never in all cases) I will tell to my clan that Orlanth had a lot of strange friends (the strange gods episod, blablabla)

If I play a very very bad priest (sometimes but not a lot) I will tell to my clan that Tom is a dangerous blasphemer or traitor or what you want, this is just a question of time before Orlanth send his spirits of reprisals so we, as good Orlanthi, we have to act, protect our clan, our wives our children. We must take our responsabilities as Orlanth did. So kill him (or ban him if I feel the people would disagree)

If I play an average priest I will tell that Tom did nothing against our clan, but we must be aware and suspicious (a,b), and ask him to not pursuit in this way (a,b sometimes c) or leave the clan

Did you (the OP) just answer your own question?

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On 10/3/2022 at 11:08 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

But after two years, you-the priest discover that Tom has some ... weirdness and Jerry is just like the other members of the community

Many Orlanthi are weird.

On 10/3/2022 at 11:08 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

a) Tom smokes a lot of hazia, some say he is able to discorporate, and speak sometimes in auld wyrmish... No one understand what he does, or what he says.

There is nothing really wrong with this. Messing with dragons is dangerous but not forbidden.

On 10/3/2022 at 11:08 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

b) Tom has a friend who is clearly a lunar sorcerer. His friend has never done anything against your clan, he even gave one time some food to a poor hungry clanmate

Don't forget Orlanthi poetry:

Breath is in everyone: all Air is your friend

All Air must move for storm or breeze.

Answer the call for assistance

Then charge what is fair, in your own eye.

Pay all debts, even if it breaks you,

Especially those gained in emergency.

If you demand payment in your turn

You will expect to be paid.

Give freely! Do not break a friend.

In emergencies a fair man will aid

But take praise and cheers for pay.

Do it free, they will too.

Also:

Good greetings in ill times, Friends!

No person can risk the world alone.

Join others you can share with,

They need not be like you.

So, Breath is in everyone, they need not be like you.

Having a Lunar as a friend is not against the Orlanthi Way.

On 10/3/2022 at 11:08 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

c) Tom like to speak, walk, drink, with these few praxian barbarian who, sometimes disturb the community

As do many Storm Bull cultists, who are associates of Orlanth.

On 10/3/2022 at 11:08 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

if I play a very very generous priest (so never in all cases) I will tell to my clan that Orlanth had a lot of strange friends (the strange gods episod, blablabla)

That's how I would do it.

If they have broken no laws, the Cult Spirits of Reprisals won't come a-calling and everyone is fine.

If they have broken the laws, it becomes obvious when they are punished.

On 10/3/2022 at 11:08 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

If I play a very very bad priest (sometimes but not a lot) I will tell to my clan that Tom is a dangerous blasphemer or traitor or what you want, this is just a question of time before Orlanth send his spirits of reprisals so we, as good Orlanthi, we have to act, protect our clan, our wives our children. We must take our responsabilities as Orlanth did. So kill him (or ban him if I feel the people would disagree)

People can drum up an excuse and force good people to leave.

Alternatively, make it into a divine challenge where the Priest has to prove that Tom is bad and needs to be exiled, and Tom needs to prove that he isn;t bad and the Priest is wrong.

On 10/3/2022 at 11:08 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

If I play an average priest I will tell that Tom did nothing against our clan, but we must be aware and suspicious (a,b), and ask him to not pursuit in this way (a,b sometimes c) or leave the clan

Maybe. Sometimes the Clan Ancestors will speak against someone, just because they have taken a dislike to them. Perhaps this is the case here.

 

 

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In “Orlanth is Dead” they talk about returned hostages who behave like Lunars (dirtshines) and lots of spies.

Think Vichy France.

I think Tom would be in big trouble, everyone would assume the Lunar sorcerer was his spy handler. But they would be frightened to act openly, because of the risk of Lunar retaliation. More likely a knife in the night or an accident.

Edited by EricW
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Not quite sure where this thread is supposed to lead (as many others have asked) but my advice, echoing @Nick Brooke, is don't have some NPC priest decide.  Let the players decide.

In our campaign, an Orlanth PC became Thane of Apple Lane.  He Hates Lunars.  So, when trying to rebuild the village, get a smith, a shepherd, a backup innkeeper, or whatever, he had limited his options.  No Lunars need apply.

He has moved on to become Clan chief of the Taralings, and my PC, who happens to be his ultra-competitive Vingan sister, became Thane.  She doesn't hate Lunars.  She was tired of Apple Lane falling behind, so she told Argrath, who is also showing (at least in 1627, not so much later) tolerance for Lunars, that skilled non-chaotic ones who were willing to show loyalty were most welcome.  Voila - we not only got a smith, we got an iron smith!  Huzzah!  And as a big side benefit, she can learn Speak New Pelorian, and actually communicate with / spy on / interrogate Lunars as the campaign progresses.  Winner.

Let the party work things out.  Maybe my PC has estranged them?  It will be interesting - when the party Storm Bull heard independently about the Lunar, he came to my PC to warn her "Watchout - I've heard rumors that he's a Lunar".  My PC smiled.

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It's a good question... especially in light of the Argrath thread!

i suspect the answer will be: the priest should send Tom out on various missions (of importance, of course) which may get him killed.... er, I meant "prove his loyalty to clan and Orlanth"....   ummm..... Help benefit the clan and raise his standards and ranking in the cult like a very good Orlanthi...

If he succeeds, then he's a good Orlanthi and clan member, and may be on the way to being a hero (or Hero). If he fails, then obviously not! (hence my post on that other thread).

As mentioned by @Eff, a) talk to the local Kolati shaman, and make sure that he's dealing with the right type of spirits. (for the PC, this may allow the opportunity to become a shaman, or at least learn a few tricks/skills, and maybe even spells).

b) be very very suspicious! We all know that Lunars are those chaos-worshipping "Illooominattted" types, and so probably is Tom! Explain how this is worrying, and also explain how the Lunars murdered hundreds and thousands of your kinfolk, and can never ever be trusted! And that it would be best for that Lunar to not be seen around too often. Unless, of course, that Lunar is passing on vital information that could be useful. If the Lunar is willing to give up their ways, and join the worship of Orlanth, then maybe...

c) Let's build a nice hut for you somewhere, ohhh, how about waaaaaayyyy over there..... but, feel free to drop in anytime now!

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2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

b) be very very suspicious! We all know that Lunars are those chaos-worshipping "Illooominattted" types, and so probably is Tom! Explain how this is worrying, and also explain how the Lunars murdered hundreds and thousands of your kinfolk, and can never ever be trusted! And that it would be best for that Lunar to not be seen around too often. Unless, of course, that Lunar is passing on vital information that could be useful. If the Lunar is willing to give up their ways, and join the worship of Orlanth, then maybe...

That's a very good point - maybe the lunar sorcerer could ask the PC a few riddles...

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