Thanatar and Krarsht in the Lunar Empire?

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, Eff said:

Now, maybe these are stronger because the Lunars love crime and think that information wants to be free, or because the Lunars being tolerant of Chaos means that they're neutral on Chaotic cults regardless of what they represent, but I'm not sure that these are all that compelling. 

I would think that while Orlanthi oppose Chaotic cults on principle, Lunars only do it for pragmatic reasons, and hence likely more weakly (perhaps only when something becomes a tangible problem).

I'm sure the Lunars strongly disapprove of Krarshti infiltration into the tax administration, but not particularly more than they would non-Chaotics trying to take a cut of the taxes. It's not the Chaos, it's the crime and power-grab.

[Eff]

13 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would think that while Orlanthi oppose Chaotic cults on principle, Lunars only do it for pragmatic reasons, and hence likely more weakly (perhaps only when something becomes a tangible problem).

I'm sure the Lunars strongly disapprove of Krarshti infiltration into the tax administration, but not particularly more than they would non-Chaotics trying to take a cut of the taxes. It's not the Chaos, it's the crime and power-grab.

I'm actually not sure that it's likely to be weaker at all. It's easy to turn around and say that Detective Storm Bull isn't going to detect a tax farmer siphoning off from the coffers to enrich themselves, donating in thanks to She of Below who protects their graft, unless said tax farmer is actually using spooky reality-warping magic, and so is going to miss the Krarsht cultist right under their nose, because their focus isn't on actions but on intrinsic characteristics. Whereas contrarily, Lunars having pragmatic opposition based on the actions involved means they don't get caught in the blind alley of looking for the person with unusual mutations to figure out who's committing the crime. 

Unless your Glorantha is one where criminal activity is intrinsically Chaotic, of course, but I think that creates some unusual consequences. 

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Eff said:

Unless your Glorantha is one where criminal activity is intrinsically Chaotic, of course, but I think that creates some unusual consequences. 

This strikes me as a clear case of Disorder instead of Chaos, agree.

[Andrew M]

20 hours ago, svensson said:

These modules are long out of print, from an earlier rules edition that doesn't always mesh well with the current one, and are not likely to be played as-is by current RQG refs.

 

 

Apparently I am unlikely. They are on the schedule to be run as part of the current campaign

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

Lunars love crime and think that information wants to be free

If information wants to be free, it also wants to be expensive: Krarsht has a kind of internet, but it is powered by blood sacrifice; I guess Thanatar is more sneakernet with heads as portable hard drives (but I haven’t checked the CoT write-up, so I may have misremembered).

It might be fun to play these cults as essentially into information for its own sake (albeit gained or transmitted at horrific cost), rather than as a source of power — but always having to fight their own “corrupt”(!) elements who want to drag things down to politics or cash.

Fanatical Lunar spies in some Void-oriented cult have a one-use spell (or mystical ability) — call it “memory hole” or “send to /dev/null” — which can only be cast on the caster, is permanent, and cannot be dispelled: if a trigger condition is met, their brain/memory is wiped and all their POW, INT, and magic is permanently destroyed (Kajabor style). If you are feeling flamboyant, have all information about them erased as well: their captors cannot even remember who they have caught. Of course, this kills the caster and removes any possibility of an afterlife or reincarnation. Mostali and Malkioni are sure it violates any number of conservation laws, so their official line is that the spell doesn’t exist. Sometimes, cyanide in a false tooth is not enough.

Edited November 22, 2022 by mfbrandi
bold to italic

[Joerg]

Highest level Dart Competition teams will employ chaotics, whether by species, by cult, or otherwise gifted. However, often enough competitors will be required to blend in with the target family's subjects, which makes easily detectable Chaos more of a hindrance. But then, the marvels of civilization include sewers as alternative routes without much need to blend in.

[metcalph]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Isn't this kind of liberation the point of Lunar Illumination? Chaotics can still choose to be bad (indeed, I would assume most do), but Illumination makes it voluntary instead of a compulsion? Ralzakark isn't horrible because he's a Broo, he's horrible because he chooses to be?

What's the point in making the Thanatari illuminated then?  It sounds like you are just reasoning from the roolz more than anything else.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

9 hours ago, Andrew M said:

Apparently I am unlikely. They are on the schedule to be run as part of the current campaign

That is the reason I ask all to use spoilers, they are dead easy, simple enough to use... Why ruin other's fun and not do so?

The 5th icon, or the first of the 2nd series of icons... the eyeball! Click that with text selected and voila! I do not worry about the player who has to cheat, you can not defeat such a one in the internet age. I worry about the player, no fault of their own, who stumbles upon the info that should have been spoilered—inadvertently.

Thanks for the support and comment Andrew.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

What's the point in making the Thanatari illuminated then?  It sounds like you are just reasoning from the roolz more than anything else.

Presumably the rules model the world, and both rules- and lore-wise, it can make sense for an Illuminant to join Thanatar for power, I would say. It’s certainly not a large cult, but I can very much see it getting subtly spread.

[Qizilbashwoman]

15 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I guess Thanatar is more sneakernet with heads as portable hard drives

I've always thought Thanatar (for example) was best run as the Chaos face of Orenoar-derived gods, which span Buserian the Solar (the OG wisdom lord), the Orlanthi ex-sorcerer Lhankor Mhy (who doesn't have an elemental rune associated) and the Lunar Irrippi Ontor. (Who is the Truth deity of the Darkness?).

Krarsht is Larnste.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Qizilbashwoman

[JRE]

I like that. I would expect either Subere ate the Dark Truths, to keep her secrets secret, or there were originally Four curious darkness deities meeting Aether, but the Truth one was fully consumed by Fire, having approached too close (damned curiosity).

They really wake my inner God Learner, as I cannot shake the feeling they are all the same deity, cross dessing to serve different masters, willing to get grant money for their projects from any source. Including Chaos. I would go as far as saying that Tien and Atyar were separate entities, but Thanatar is the Knowledge god crafting a chaotic mask out of the remnants of two defeated enemies...

I would say Krarsht is Larnste's shadow, rather than Larnste itself, but that is sophism. 

[Squaredeal Sten]

19 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

..........According to Lords of Terror, "The Imperial Bureau of Taxation in the Lunar Provinces is infiltrated by Krarshti. ... The Krarshti siphon cash from tax revenues into Krarsht coffers, which are in turn secretly recycled as personal loans to public figures in power. Once caught in debt and blackmailed, these public figures become subtle tools of Krarshti policy.......

So what is Krarshti policy?

Are chaotic folks even capable of executing a long term policy?  

 

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So what is Krarshti policy?

They seem to be a lot about infiltrating and corrupting society, although I'm less sure about the end goals. Krarsht is Hunger though, so maybe it's just hunger for power in a general sense?

5 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Are chaotic folks even capable of executing a long term policy?  

Clearly yes. Not all, of course (very likely not most), but without such capability we would not have Krarsht criminal networks, Ogres living in secret among humans for generations, or a Scorpionman kingdom. And that's before we get into Illumination.

[JRE]

Most Chaos cults are unable even of basic collaboration, and Thanatar is vulnerable to this, as the only real way to ascend in the temple is to kill someone above you and gain control of their head. I am quite sure that is how the inner secrets are transferred, by head taking. Not a good recipe for team building.

However Krarsht is different, it is Chaos because it is something external to Glorantha, but it is organized, it has a plan, and a detailed agenda, and something coordinating activities throughout the world, even if no human knows what is the plan. That allows the cult to act with a very long view and with surprising coordination, and why it is usually the most feared Chaos cult. It fulfills most of its promises, so it gets pragmatic practical followers and not only the crazy ones. And it puts the capable ones in charge, so it is often the best led organization in a certain area.

You will end up devoured by the Maw, but you may enjoy quite a comfortable life along the way. That is the temptation.

 

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

You will end up devoured by the Maw, but you may enjoy quite a comfortable life along the way. That is the temptation.

That you will become the devouring devoured — Ouroboros — that is the cultist’s temptation. And that just might bear some resemblance to the plan of Krarsht herself.

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Presumably the rules model the world, and both rules- and lore-wise, it can make sense for an Illuminant to join Thanatar for power, I would say. It’s certainly not a large cult, but I can very much see it getting subtly spread.

You are just saying the supposed Thanatari in the Empire are all illuminated (for the benefits) but still act evil.  How could anybody (even themselves) tell whether they were illuminated or not?  

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

You are just saying the supposed Thanatari in the Empire are all illuminated (for the benefits) but still act evil.  How could anybody (even themselves) tell whether they were illuminated or not?  

No, I'm saying Thanatar will be an interesting choice for a certain subsegment of the Illuminated. I'm sure there's the non-Illuminated kind as well.

It's going to be hard to be a Thanatari and not act evil - if you weren't breaking bad already (Illuminated or not), you wouldn't go for Thanatar.

And I'm sure we agree that Illuminated people can act evil, even systematiclly evil? Illumination has nothing to do with good and evil - in a way, that's the point, and you might as well ask how a good person could be known to be Illuminated. Illumination can be detected (that's an Illumination ability, isn't it? and I wouldn't be surprised if you could prove it to someone in an interview merely through philosophical understanding), and while it may be possible to be Illuminated for a while without realizing it (Oddi the Keen is a candidate), I believe this would be rare? So I'm not sure I even understand the question. 

[soltakss]

On 11/21/2022 at 9:53 PM, Ali the Helering said:

If the Crimson Bat has a place, I don't see why Thanatar is that big an issue, tbh.

Thanatari hate Silver, which is the Lunar metal.

Also, they are really, really dangerous.

They can steal Lunar secrets.

I think that Krarshti would have a presence in the Lunar Empire, as they try to infiltrate everywhere.

[Jeff]

On 11/21/2022 at 1:24 PM, EricW said:

How much of a problem is Thanatar and Krarsht in the Lunar Empire?

I’ve seen references Lunars find it difficult to contain hidden chaos, because of their tolerance and lack of cults with sense chaos ability.

How do any difficulties manifest? Does it pay to wear an iron collar if walking the streets of Glamour? Do the basement levels of fashionably decadent entertainment venues all have basements and doors which lead to lower levels?

Or does the empire keep a strict rein on such manifestation?

Thoughts?

Problem? That’s maybe not the right term. Unlike most other organized states in Genertela, the Lunar Empire tolerates the worship of Chaotic entities. The Crimson Bat, Primal Chaos, Nysalor, and of course the Red Goddess are state sponsored Chaos cults. But ideologically it is difficult for Lunar officials to prohibit worship of Vivamort, Krarsht, Mallia, Thed, etc.

Now many things these cults do - murder, rape, spread of disease, etc. is going to get repressed by Lunar officials. But even the Orlanthi have Black Fang and Lanbril. Even in the Lunar Empire these cults need to operate in the shadows away from Yelms light. But of course it is much easier for them to exist than in Theyalan lands where their very existence is taboo.

[Eff]

36 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Problem? That’s maybe not the right term. Unlike most other organized states in Genertela, the Lunar Empire tolerates the worship of Chaotic entities. The Crimson Bat, Primal Chaos, Nysalor, and of course the Red Goddess are state sponsored Chaos cults. But ideologically it is difficult for Lunar officials to prohibit worship of Vivamort, Krarsht, Mallia, Thed, etc.

Now many things these cults do - murder, rape, spread of disease, etc. is going to get repressed by Lunar officials. But even the Orlanthi have Black Fang and Lanbril. Even in the Lunar Empire these cults need to operate in the shadows away from Yelms light. But of course it is much easier for them to exist than in Theyalan lands where their very existence is taboo.

So, is there a kind of ballpark figure on just how much rape and sexual assault increases under the Lunar Way, then? Some statistics or numbers worked out?

[Qizilbashwoman]

14 hours ago, JRE said:

I would go as far as saying that Tien and Atyar were separate entities, but Thanatar is the Knowledge god crafting a chaotic mask out of the remnants of two defeated enemies...

Tien had the Death Rune and Atyar was the Knowledge Thief; together you get the bizarre combination of Chaos, Truth and Death that is Thanatar

[svensson]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Problem? That’s maybe not the right term. Unlike most other organized states in Genertela, the Lunar Empire tolerates the worship of Chaotic entities. The Crimson Bat, Primal Chaos, Nysalor, and of course the Red Goddess are state sponsored Chaos cults. But ideologically it is difficult for Lunar officials to prohibit worship of Vivamort, Krarsht, Mallia, Thed, etc.

Now many things these cults do - murder, rape, spread of disease, etc. is going to get repressed by Lunar officials. But even the Orlanthi have Black Fang and Lanbril. Even in the Lunar Empire these cults need to operate in the shadows away from Yelms light. But of course it is much easier for them to exist than in Theyalan lands where their very existence is taboo.

The problem with the Lunar's logic is that in Glorantha the Rune influences conduct. This is part of the mythical structure of the world... The nature of Chaos is not 'change for change's sake', as it's Lunar apologists would have it, but nihilism... destruction for destruction's sake. Chaos is the antithesis of organization... any kind of organization. Societal rules, the Great Compromise, even physics [such as exist on Glorantha] are anathema to Chaos, which demands that nothing is consistent, nothing is stable, save only the cycle of creation, destruction, and creation again.

There are only three ways to prevent a being inflicted by the Chaos rune for destroying everything around them... Illuminate them, kill them, or redeem them by removing their Chaos rune. As of this moment, we know of ONE HeroQuest that'll do that for you. That is the Cleansed One subcult of Zola Fel river cult. [Note: IMG, that subcult exists in ONE river cult not all of them. AFAIC, river cults are not 'interchangeable'. The myths that effect the Creek-Stream watershed have no bearing on those the effect the Zola Fel or the Oslir. Ergo, while the cults are VERY similar, they are still different from each other. -- but that is another discussion]

[Darius West]

On 11/23/2022 at 6:13 AM, metcalph said:

I have a lot of doubt over a cult of Thanatar active in Carmania and find the idea that Thanatari can keep themselves clean by being illuminated to be absurd - nobody suggests it for worshippers of other chaotic cults.  

Well, illumination will hide the overt signs of chaos like a chaos taint or feature.  It won't hide your Thanatar tattoo, or your talking severed head collection.  Illumination is useful for chaotics but not enough on its own.  For that you need tradecraft.

[metcalph]

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

No, I'm saying Thanatar will be an interesting choice for a certain subsegment of the Illuminated. I'm sure there's the non-Illuminated kind as well.

The way you describe how they think and act (supporting the empire rather than their god) doesn't strike me as interesting.

 

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's going to be hard to be a Thanatari and not act evil - if you weren't breaking bad already (Illuminated or not), you wouldn't go for Thanatar.

Being evil and a Thanatari is not the problem - avoiding detection in a civilized society is.  No matter how illuminated you are is not going to save you from the authorities should you walk around with heads on your bely.  

 

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

And I'm sure we agree that Illuminated people can act evil, even systematiclly evil?

You really have to define systematically evil because I really don't see it as being compatible with illumination.  Even the one example of systematic illumination that you have offered up so far (Ralzakar's sword broos) can be better explained with a severe geas.  

 

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Illumination has nothing to do with good and evil - in a way, that's the point, and you might as well ask how a good person could be known to be Illuminated.

No, I'm pointing out that handwaving people as illuminated so they can collectively behave as stereotypical powergamers or what have you misses the point about what being Illuminated should actually be.  A Tahnatari that consumed someone's mind and ended up worshipping Chalana Arroy (someone's explanation for the Wild Healer) better encapsulates what Illumination is like.  It's madness mixed in with doubt on a cosmic scale.

 

 

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Well, illumination will hide the overt signs of chaos like a chaos taint or feature. 

Kinda doubt that.  Hiding the taint is not an automatic feature of illumination and even when you learned how to, the physical effects of a chaotic feature (such as a third arm or broo's horns) can't be hidden - they won't just register as chaotic, that's all.  Now you could explain all this way within the Empire as a Chaos Gift but IMO you are still going to be ostracized.