Yelmalio/Elmal again

[radmonger]

2 hours ago, SDLeary said:

So it appears as if the Orlanthi (note the collective here) believe that Elmal is the Sun God, and that Yelmalio is a different god.

Orlanthi do 'believe' that, in the sense of general background mythology that they are perhaps able to recite, but not going to do much about. The thing about Orlanthi is that they are members of the cult of Orlanth, and so not Elmal, or Yelmalio. So they don't get any magic from that background belief, except perhaps as much as they might from any other thunder brother. So at most an Orlanth temple may  have a shrine to Orlanth's thane Elmal. Lacking any good reason to change, they still use that name, just like most English speakers use Florence rather than Firenze.

The point is that Elmalians, meaning those actually initiated at a temple still following the Elmal 'subcult' of Yelmalio, mostly know better, for the reasons, and with the exceptions, discussed above. And even they quite likely use the name Elmal when talking to orlanthi, for the same reasons some Italians will use Florence when talking to english people. 

This is all more or less localised to Dragon pass and heortland: independant Elmali temples were never that widespread. The map of sun dome temples has been posted here recently, and only one or two are in the region where they would ever have been Elmali-run . The others were  Khelmal or whatever, and so Monrogh had nothing to do with them. 

Everywhere else used to just sometimes have shrines to elmal the loyal thane in their orlanth clan temple. Those that did, generally still do.

 

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Sorry, my question was not about fire powers specifically. More the overall representation of Elmal, where he is the Orlanthi Sun in multiple areas.

I wasn’t having a dig at you, @SDLeary. I was just owning up to my own laziness in assuming Elmal was in early appearances, which may well not have been the case. It does seem to have been Orlanthi orthodoxy that “Elmal is the Sun” (Storm Tribe, p. 45), but clearly: (i) this has been retconned; (ii) he still seems to have been , rather than .

Personally — and this is just me, not an attempt to define canon or anyone else’s Glorantha — it seems more fun if the Orlanthi religion doesn’t try to hi-jack all the big cosmic functions: Orlanth murdered the Sun (the one, the true, the god-damned only sun), who is an enemy god, whose function is not duplicated among Orlanth’s friends and suck-ups, and the Blue Puffer had to get involved in bringing back the enemy sun god, who remains an enemy and the Sun even after the grudging handshake.

That is, part of the essential stuff of the universe belongs to the enemy and will stay with the enemy — IS the enemy. So we cannot kill the enemy — tried that: more trouble than it was worth — and we have to live with them. But if Elmal really were the capital-S Sun (rather than the last beacon of hope in the Darkness), why not kill Yelm again? After all, Orlanth would have that cosmic function covered.

I think it is a good thing if the PCs have to face up to the fact that some of their enemies belong in the universe and have to be lived with. If the PCs are going to be Orlanthi and Orlanth’s eternal foe is Yelm, then I think it is a good thing if the essential solar function belongs to and stays with Yelm. The enemy is not necessarily wrong, or useless, or morally bankrupt, or unnecessary to the continuation of our universe and our way of life — it is just that we both want the same things (and/or have anger-management issues) and are butting heads. Cattle raiding!

[g33k]

3 hours ago, SDLeary said:

• ... [sorry, forgot about not being able to use the R font, and don't have the pic files handy]

Runes are available as "Categories" from the Emoji-menu.

"Small Runes" work well as inline text:   

"Big Runes" are... well, bigger:    

Edited March 8, 2023 by g33k

[mfbrandi]

7 minutes ago, g33k said:

Runes are available as "Categories" from the Emoji-menu.

Or type  :20- (e.g. “:20-sub-light” narrows it down to one) and click on the one you want.

It took me ages to figure that out — and then only by accident, I think.

(But maybe SDLeary knows all this and cannot for some other reason.)

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by mfbrandi

[Erol of Backford]

14 hours ago, radmonger said:

No Elmal writeup I've ever seen has a fireball rune spell

What about Flame Strike or its equivalent, I suppose it'd be like a large fire elemental... there's a certain retired, really really old Yelmalio priest who has some pet salamanders that would be the same or nearly the same effect. Quiet inspirational no?

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[Rob Darvall]

On 3/7/2023 at 1:05 AM, Leingod said:

Elmal’s “Hill of Gold” is “Elmal Guards the Stead.” Elmal’s spear and shield end up with Orlanth; he gave them willingly and received Orlanth’s shield and regency over the Storm Tribe, sure, but that’s just a change in context. He faces three wicked foes and each leaves him broken and bleeding; the foes are different and he actually won those fights, yes, but the important part is the “left bleeding and broken but gets back up” part. One foe targets his virtue rather than his body; that virtue is loyalty rather than chastity, but nonetheless. 

These are all contextual changes, well within the scope of regional and cultural variations in worship. Relationships, motivations, and so on often differ even within a single group’s myths, much less between different ones.

 

On 3/7/2023 at 5:59 AM, mfbrandi said:

Well, it depends what you mean.

If we take the divine identities seriously — Kargzant = Lightfore = Yelmalio = Elmal = [a whole bunch of other small and/or cold suns] — then you already know it, possibly in several variants. One starts “once upon a time, Yelmalio …” Any Hill of Gold myth about a little sun is in that sense a Kargzant Hill of Gold myth. If you like, these are the stories with the god name replaced by a variable (story as complex predicate?): if true of Lightfore, also true of Kargzant.

Another sense is the events that happened to the god in Godtime. We know them in outline, but bits may be disputed, even changeable. We may come to know the events better — or worse — in time.

Finally(?), there is the question of whether we find Hill of Gold-type stories in which the name “Kargzant” appears — especially interesting if told by people who don’t know the salient divine identities. Well, we might find such, but it would be too strong to say we should find them. Worshippers can — and will — have incomplete knowledge of their deities, no?

Others may see this as obvious or untenable, however:
ALL the Little Suns have a HoG. ...the important part is the “left bleeding and broken but gets back up”... The details of who does what to remove which power is culturally variable and gives each culture access to different powers. BUT there are always "missing/stolen" powers that an initiate must sacrifice another power to gain if they so quest. 

So FREX an Elmali performing a Yelmalio HoG quest would loose Fireblade but gain Catseye, or similar (away from books ATM). 

So flogging dead lizards is of value to me at least.

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, radmonger said:

it appears the entity worshipped by the Elmal cult has minimal fire powers. So making those available to initiates is disproportionately hard work, with not particularly impressive results. No Elmal writeup I've ever seen has a fireball rune spell; it's more you get a discount on buying the firearrow spirit spell. 

Fireball?  Fireblade perhaps... I've never heard any reference to a fireball spell anywhere in RQ anything.

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Although if Elmal = Yelmalio, then there is no question of one god having fire powers and the other not. The one is the other. That is not to deny that some worshippers of the god do fire magic while other worshippers do not.

That is why the syncretic movement of Monrogh is Godlearnerism.  Gloranthan mythology is about regions.  If you leave the region, the stories of the gods change subtly.  Different secrets apply in different areas because the territory and the myths change.  Perhaps not in a huge way, but in small ways that are noticeable to the newcomer.  This is a bit like how Zeus was a storm god in some places and a werewolf in others in Ancient Greece and the Balkans, but less pronounced.

When in Orlanthi lands, the god Yelm is obscured by the storm clouds and not worshipped because he is an enemy, and often a dead enemy, but the small sun is known as Elmal and is the Loyal Thane, and still has his fire powers and he zips through the hills at dawn and dusk.  In lands where Yelm is more dominant, the small sun is not seen as providing heat, and the myths reflect that.

The crucial thing is (first and most importantly) the territory, which affects the culture, which in turn produces the myths imo.

The fact is, there is no way to reconcile Elmal with Yelmalio.  They are not the same deity.  Their myths are too different.  Elmal is not at the Hill of Gold, or Orlanth would recognize him, and Elmal, being loyal, wouldn't fight Orlanth.  Thus Elmal doesn't bleed out his fire powers while Yelmalio does.  I suspect this was likely played out by Monrogh himself losing at the Hill of Gold HQ at some point, because before Monrogh, there was no Yelmalio, and Monrogh only died in 1582.  As I have written elsewhere, Yelmalio only came into existence within the living memory of some old Sartarites.

It was controversial when Greg introduced Elmal, and it remains contentious, but ignore the contention; Elmal is great for MGF.  The tension between the backwoods Elmal worshippers and the interloper Yelmalios of Far Point trying to shut down and absorb their cult prior to the Hero Wars adds an extra level of interest to the regional conflict for games set in Far Point.  

[Darius West]

To those who say Elmal's fire powers aren't useful, I say that isn't the point.  Orlanthi need to have a tame fire deity, just as Yelm cultures will have their version of a tame storm deity who provides rain.  Elmal is a deity of horses, and of guarding, and is the Orlanthi's primary troll killer.  Salamanders of any size are very useful, and spirit spells like Fireblade and Firearrow alone would make the cult worth joining, let alone when you include a gift/geas.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Darius West

[Bren]

On 3/5/2023 at 10:37 AM, Jeff said:

Humakt is in general neutral towards most deities, except those that misuse Death or sanctify betrayal. He's friendly only to Orlanth and Ty Kora Tek. 

According to the Cult Compatibility chart in RQiG, Humakt is also friendly to Yinkin.

[Jeff]

33 minutes ago, Darius West said:

To those who say Elmal's fire powers aren't useful, I say that isn't the point.  Orlanthi need to have a tame fire deity, just as Yelm cultures will have their version of a tame storm deity who provides rain.  Elmal is a deity of horses, and of guarding, and is the Orlanthi's primary troll killer.  Salamanders of any size are very useful, and spirit spells like Fireblade and Firearrow alone would make the cult worth joining, let alone when you include a gift/geas.

Again, you state this stuff over and over again, but I tell you that is not the way it appears in RQ, not the way it is going to appear in the Cults Book, Sartar Book, etc. The only Air deity associated with Yelm is Molanni aka Entekos. She basically Dismisses Clouds and Decreases Winds. 

Orlanth's primary troll killer is Orlanth or Humakt. Or maybe they can hire some Yelmalions to do the work. 

Now you are welcome to have Elmal as a Yelm analogue in your Glorantha. Go for it. But that is not how it is going to work in published works. All the Little Suns fall under the category of Yelmalio, even if they have some local variations and local names.

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Again, you state this stuff over and over again, but I tell you that is not the way it appears in RQ, not the way it is going to appear in the Cults Book, Sartar Book, etc. The only Air deity associated with Yelm is Molanni aka Entekos. She basically Dismisses Clouds and Decreases Winds. 

Orlanth's primary troll killer is Orlanth or Humakt. Or maybe they can hire some Yelmalions to do the work. 

Now you are welcome to have Elmal as a Yelm analogue in your Glorantha. Go for it. But that is not how it is going to work in published works. All the Little Suns fall under the category of Yelmalio, even if they have some local variations and local names.

IMO I think Yelmalio needs some idea of its regional variations and a recognition of the fact that these cults become at least subtly different over time.  Tharkantus=/= Balazaar=/= Elmal.  The Ostrich Rider version of Yelmalio (Khim?) doesn't have hoplites and nor does the more general Praxian version where it exists.  Elmal receives Cats Eye from Yinkin, but Yelmalio claims he is the source of this magic despite not being a cat.  There are anomalies that need to be addressed.

IMO I just can't see how Elmal can be at the Hill of Gold.  It just doesn't work.  Yelmalio is not Orlanth's loyal thane, he's a competitor.  Now Monrogh does this whole wandering quest and recited the List of Visionaries to bring Yelmalio into existence, but face facts, what was that all in aid of if Elmal, Tharkantus, Balazaar and Khim etc. are all the same as Yelmalio anyhow?  Those powers already exist in the world and in a manner appropriate to the areas they are in.  What is the point of Monrogh's "unification" under one name other than Monrogh making a grab for power in Sun Valley?  And seriously, why should any of the variant people adopt what Monrogh said, except under threat?  To get non-reusable Sunspear from Yelm, when you could have spirit magic Fireblade from Elmal?  You know which would get more use.

At very least, a future Yelmalio cult write-up  needs to acknowledge and explain why Yelmalio has been known by so many names in so many places over time and what Monrogh was actually doing and why it even matters.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Darius West

[SDLeary]

6 hours ago, g33k said:

Runes are available as "Categories" from the Emoji-menu.

"Small Runes" work well as inline text:   

"Big Runes" are... well, bigger:    

Thanks much! An added detail that I missed!

SDLeary

[hipsterinspace]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

IMO I just can't see how Elmal can be at the Hill of Gold.  It just doesn't work.  Yelmalio is not Orlanth's loyal thane, he's a competitor.

They don’t specify that Orlanth or Zorak Zoran appear as the rivals by necessity in the Hill of Gold. The quester faces the “Selfish God” and the “Cruel God” before enduring an ordeal of cold and being set upon by chaos. The cool thing about how myths work is that they’re impressions rather than strict labels. People will of course assign labels, different cultures may have different figures cast in those mythic roles, but it’s still in the broad sense the same myth.

In the case of “Elmal Guards the Stead”, perhaps the encounter with the Selfish God is overcome not by fighting and losing but by teaching him how to share, and doing so is how Elmal gains the Shield spell from Orlanth as an associate. Either way, in both quests the core lesson is that the questers must sacrifice more and more of themselves to endure despite knowing that they will fail again and again, that they will be broken by the ordeal but nonetheless refuse to give up.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, hipsterinspace said:

In the case of “Elmal Guards the Stead”, perhaps the encounter with the Selfish God is overcome not by fighting and losing but by teaching him how to share, and doing so is how Elmal gains the Shield spell from Orlanth as an associate. Either way, in both quests the core lesson is that the questers must sacrifice more and more of themselves to endure despite knowing that they will fail again and again, that they will be broken by the ordeal but nonetheless refuse to give up.

I don't think Elmal Guards the Stead is the myth where Elmal receives Shield from Orlanth.  At the time, Orlanth is gone, missing, dead, eaten by chaos.  There is no hope of a reward, no possible Kumbaya moment to avoid the pain.   All encounters, no matter who they are with, end in the hero's complete defeat.  

[radmonger]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

The tension between the backwoods Elmal worshippers and the interloper Yelmalios of Far Point trying to shut down and absorb their cult prior to the Hero Wars adds an extra level of interest to the regional conflict for games set in Far Point.  

How exactly do you propose having that conflict happen if Yelmalio and Elmal are clearly distinct deities, and so, in RQ:G, function according to RQ:G rules? The ones where anyone leaving a cult loses reusable access to their cult rune magic, and get attacked by spirits of reprisal? 

As I understand the history, Harvar and the lunar-allied Yelmalians tried to take control of the region from the more numerous orlanthi. Once they controlled the temples, they should have had a monopoly on night-fighting magic, and so the ability to raid and burn any clan. Which earns Harvar his epithet, Ironfist.

If Elmal was not Yelmalio, that would be the end of the story, and Harvar would rule Farpoint to this day.

However, in glorantha as written, there were dissident Yelmalians who sided with the Orlanthi. Some of them just hated Harvar, some had married into clans they had become loyal to . Those dissidents cited the myth of Elmal the loyal thane, and did not suffer from spirits of reprisal for doing so. They worshipped at Elmalthane shrines within backwoods Orlanth temples, and so regained their night-fighting  magic.

They may or may not have set up their own Elmal temples, which may or may not have been destroyed by Harvar; i don't know the history at a more detailed level than this outline. if they had, while they existed, they would have worked. This would allow the Yelmalian rebels to recover their numbers, which were no doubt depleted by lunar assassins.

After the dragonrise, the Sun Dome Temples are once again back to being a neutral potential ally instead of an agent of the Emperor,. So the reason for the resurgence of Elmal goes away. Though it may have left remnants, and would likely recur in similar circumstances.

This was all possible because Elmal is Yelmalio, at least at the level that matter to the RQ;G ruiles. If you are using a different game system, you are free to be more ambiguous with your metaphysics.

But just remember this is stuff that non-illuminates fight and die for, take absolutely seriously, and are never bored by arguing about. 

 

[radmonger]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Fireball?  Fireblade perhaps... I've never heard any reference to a fireball spell anywhere in RQ anything.

That's the point; fireball is the spell that doesn't exist because Elmal doesn't have fire magic. His cult merely doesn't forbid learning fire spirit or summoning magic. This is because they historically didn't have access to the deeper secrets of the hill of gold that explain why this is so.

The sun in the regions he is worshipped is basically never hot enough to literally set things on fire. Without hill of gold, you are left with the conclusion that the regions where this does happen are stronger, more magically potent, better than you. So you are never going to beat them, so might as well pay tribute.

This neatly parallels the way orlanthi regard Pelorian gods of the mild breeze that ruffles your hair a bit.

 

[kr0p0s]

Just seen this on the Well from @Jeff

"So we see Yelmalio where Yelm does not or cannot rule. Yelmalio was present before the Dawn. As Kargzant, he defeated monsters and ensured the survival of the horse tribes. As Antirius, he defended Yelm’s legacy and heralded his return. And as Elmal, he brought Light to the Shadowlands. Now as Yelmalio, he is the God of the Sun Dome Temples, who make sure that Light has its strongholds even in the lands of the Air and Darkness."

I think this is a succinct summary of the present Canon. The light reaches even into the furthest reaches...

Edited March 9, 2023 by kr0p0s

[Jeff]

14 minutes ago, kr0p0s said:

Just seen this on the Well from @Jeff

"So we see Yelmalio where Yelm does not or cannot rule. Yelmalio was present before the Dawn. As Kargzant, he defeated monsters and ensured the survival of the horse tribes. As Antirius, he defended Yelm’s legacy and heralded his return. And as Elmal, he brought Light to the Shadowlands. Now as Yelmalio, he is the God of the Sun Dome Temples, who make sure that Light has its strongholds even in the lands of the Air and Darkness."

I think this is a succinct summary of the present Canon. The light reaches event into the furthest reaches...

Yep. At this point I think I’ve pretty thoroughly explained this. I’m happy to talk about how the Yelmalio cult functions, it’s role in South Peloria but I have no interest in going round and round in circles with people who want a different answer.

[SDLeary]

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

<snip>

This was all possible because Elmal is Yelmalio, at least at the level that matter to the RQ;G ruiles. If you are using a different game system, you are free to be more ambiguous with your metaphysics. …

For me, it’s not that Elmal and Yelmalio are the same entity. It’s more that, socially, they are seen as different, worshipped differently, and have different organizational structures.

In Orlanthi society, Elmal is The Sun, the Defender of the stead and integrated into clan and tribe. He fights in skirmishes and in the shield wall with good Orlanthi, rides patrol and stands watch.

Yelmalio is a foreigner. He is standoffish, gathers mainly with his own. His followers fight in their own groups, and even if they are allied with you, they act on their own and follow their own rules. And watch your back, because for the right coin, they can easily become your enemy.

off to work…

SDLeary

[Scotty]

After seven pages, it's time to close another Elmal / Yelmalio thread until the next time. For those who would like to continue, please start a new topic with an appropriate title. I've split off the Ostrich Riders and Yelmalio into its own new topic.