Yelmalio/Elmal again

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

The Red Goddess is a profoundly problematic deity.

If Chalana Arroy, the most merciful and "good guy white hat" cult on Glorantha, is actively hostile to the Red Goddess, and groups her with cults like Cacademon and Mallia, then the Red Goddess is not "problematic".  By this take, she is objectively evil and must be destroyed.  Which seems a profound shift from my understanding of earlier, more "nuanced" views of Glorantha.  YGMV.

This is not necessarily a bad thing - it makes it simpler for authors, PCs, GMs, and campaigns to focus on the Prax / Sartar / Esrolia homelands, and the typical Air / Earth cults, for which there is much more material both available and upcoming.  I understand that Chaosium has limited resources and must focus their energies.

[Eff]

6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If Chalana Arroy, the most merciful and "good guy white hat" cult on Glorantha, is actively hostile to the Red Goddess, and groups her with cults like Cacademon and Mallia, then the Red Goddess is not "problematic".  By this take, she is objectively evil and must be destroyed.  Which seems a profound shift from my understanding of earlier, more "nuanced" views of Glorantha.  YGMV.

This is not necessarily a bad thing - it makes it simpler for authors, PCs, GMs, and campaigns to focus on the Prax / Sartar / Esrolia homelands, and the typical Air / Earth cults, for which there is much more material both available and upcoming.  I understand that Chaosium has limited resources and must focus their energies.

To be fair, back in Cults of Terror, Chalana Arroy was also hostile to Zorak Zoran. But you're right! Unless you take a level of extremely cartoonish moral relativism, puffing on a bubble-pipe and declaiming "who can say whether healing the sick is good or not?", positioning the Chalana Arroy that in Cults of Terror had a clear line drawn between "chaos gods with actual mortal adherents" like Bagog, Krarsht, Thed, Nysalor, the Bat and "gods who deliberately work to undermine me" like Mallia, Thanatar, Vivamort and Primal Chaos as hostile to the Red Goddess despite her mortal adherents indicates either that Chalana Arroy has gone all problematical on us when we weren't looking... or that the Red Goddess is worse by far than any of those, such that Chalana Arroy's beliefs about healing and mercy are overridden.

[Jeff]

16 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If Chalana Arroy, the most merciful and "good guy white hat" cult on Glorantha, is actively hostile to the Red Goddess, and groups her with cults like Cacademon and Mallia, then the Red Goddess is not "problematic".  By this take, she is objectively evil and must be destroyed.  Which seems a profound shift from my understanding of earlier, more "nuanced" views of Glorantha.  YGMV.

This is not necessarily a bad thing - it makes it simpler for authors, PCs, GMs, and campaigns to focus on the Prax / Sartar / Esrolia homelands, and the typical Air / Earth cults, for which there is much more material both available and upcoming.  I understand that Chaosium has limited resources and must focus their energies.

Well she groups the Red Goddess with the likes of Zorak Zoran rather than Mallia, but yes, the Chalana Arroy cult is hostile towards the Red Goddess cult. Not the Seven Mothers (who is merely Neutral), not even the Red Emperor (who as Yelm Imperator is Associated), but the Red Goddess cult of illuminated Lunar Rune Masters. That's simply there.

And putting the Lunar apologetics aside, the Red Goddess is profoundly dangerous. She has brought Chaos back in the world, and has violated the Cosmic Compromise. At the same time she turns the wheel of cycles and offers spiritual liberation - that includes illumination that this is  neither inherently good or evil, but simply is. But Chalana Arroy - like all the Lightbringers - views the Red Goddess as an Enemy or at least Hostile to the cosmos. That also simply is.

Whether the danger that the Red Goddess represents is outweighed by her spiritual illumination is an open question. For those who follow the Lunar Way, the answer is clearly yes. For those that uphold the old Cosmic Compromise, the answer is not so clear, although those clustered around Orlanth answer that the answer is most definitely no. 

The Lunar Empire itself manages to straddle this for the most part, finding ways to deal even with cults hostile to the Red Goddess (but at least neutral towards the missionary cults). But a few cults - such as Eurmal, Heler, Humakt, Storm Bull, Valind, and Orlanth - are intransigent in their refusal to even accept the Red Goddess' existence. 

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Well she groups the Red Goddess with the likes of Zorak Zoran rather than Mallia, but yes, the Chalana Arroy cult is hostile towards the Red Goddess cult. Not the Seven Mothers (who is merely Neutral), not even the Red Emperor (who as Yelm Imperator is Associated), but the Red Goddess cult of illuminated Lunar Rune Masters. That's simply there.

And putting the Lunar apologetics aside, the Red Goddess is profoundly dangerous. She has brought Chaos back in the world, and has violated the Cosmic Compromise. At the same time she turns the wheel of cycles and offers spiritual liberation - that includes illumination that this is  neither inherently good or evil, but simply is. But Chalana Arroy - like all the Lightbringers - views the Red Goddess as an Enemy or at least Hostile to the cosmos. That also simply is.

Whether the danger that the Red Goddess represents is outweighed by her spiritual illumination is an open question. For those who follow the Lunar Way, the answer is clearly yes. For those that uphold the old Cosmic Compromise, the answer is not so clear, although those clustered around Orlanth answer that the answer is most definitely no. 

The Lunar Empire itself manages to straddle this for the most part, finding ways to deal even with cults hostile to the Red Goddess (but at least neutral towards the missionary cults). But a few cults - such as Eurmal, Heler, Humakt, Storm Bull, Valind, and Orlanth - are intransigent in their refusal to even accept the Red Goddess' existence. 

And this is the Gbaji/Nysalor dichotomy again. IF you accept the experiences of the Lightbringers and their associates, the Red Goddess is as evil as any Chaos cult, just as Nysalor was Gbaji. And yet, the Lunar Heartlands are well-governed and until recently have enjoyed more than a century of tranquil peace and great cultural accomplishments. Few residents of the Heartlands ever see Chaos monstrosities or features. So who are you going to believe - the cults of the Old Gods or your own eyes? 

[Eff]

36 minutes ago, Eff said:

To be fair, back in Cults of Terror, Chalana Arroy was also hostile to Zorak Zoran. But you're right! Unless you take a level of extremely cartoonish moral relativism, puffing on a bubble-pipe and declaiming "who can say whether healing the sick is good or not?", positioning the Chalana Arroy that in Cults of Terror had a clear line drawn between "chaos gods with actual mortal adherents" like Bagog, Krarsht, Thed, Nysalor, the Bat and "gods who deliberately work to undermine me" like Mallia, Thanatar, Vivamort and Primal Chaos as hostile to the Red Goddess despite her mortal adherents indicates either that Chalana Arroy has gone all problematical on us when we weren't looking... or that the Red Goddess is worse by far than any of those, such that Chalana Arroy's beliefs about healing and mercy are overridden.

Of course, that crazy old sourcebook has some weird stuff in that cult compatibility table, doesn't it? Crimson Bat cultists are neutral towards Orlanth, while Orlanth cultists are enemies of Crimson Bat cultists. They're hostile towards only four other cults in that wild book, in fact: Storm Bull, Zorak Zoran, Thanatar, and Vivamort. Imagine, if you will, a situation where you have one group of people who are studiedly neutral towards a second group and another group are frothing-at-the-mouth hostile towards them- which would you think was likely to be in the right? In fact, the first group is only hostile towards berserk murderers, vampires, and people who secretly murder other people to eat their brains, metaphorically speaking.

Of course we know that in Glorantha it's simply a matter of perspective, and there's no way to step back and consider the actual situation that is happening here and what it might mean and how we might think of the people involved. Furthermore, even if you do that impossible action, you can't pull back yet further and consider if you want to mold or change that situation, adjust the entries on the sacred chart in the holy books, such that perhaps the situation is less ambiguous or has more room for the second, totally nameless group of people to be less rabid. There's simply no way to do this. If Glorantha varies, that happens without any intent or thought or consideration from anyone.

The easiest and simplest solution, I think, in the absence of holding property rights by law, is to simply declare that mischievous entries like Humakt being neutral to Primal Chaos, Pavis being friendly to Seven Mothers, and the like, well, they were simply whispered into the author's ear by Satan. Or Wakboth. Or whatever you call it.

[Jeff]

14 minutes ago, Eff said:

Of course, that crazy old sourcebook has some weird stuff in that cult compatibility table, doesn't it? Crimson Bat cultists are neutral towards Orlanth, while Orlanth cultists are enemies of Crimson Bat cultists. They're hostile towards only four other cults in that wild book, in fact: Storm Bull, Zorak Zoran, Thanatar, and Vivamort. Imagine, if you will, a situation where you have one group of people who are studiedly neutral towards a second group and another group are frothing-at-the-mouth hostile towards them- which would you think was likely to be in the right? In fact, the first group is only hostile towards berserk murderers, vampires, and people who secretly murder other people to eat their brains, metaphorically speaking.

 

Greg and I went over the Cult Compatibility tables a few years before he passed away. The Crimson Bat serves the Lunar Empire and is pretty much Neutral towards any everyone - with the exception of the Bull, Zorak Zoran, Thanatar, and VIvamort, everyone is just Bat Food, and not worthy of any specific hostility.

But you are welcome to have your Glorantha. But this is how Greg and later I put it together for these publications. 

[scott-martin]

2 minutes ago, Eff said:

the absence of holding property rights by law

Fortuitously we were just playing an old Joseph Campbell lecture where he defines the vaishyas as "people of property" so here we are. From one point of view, identity, like property, is the foundation of liberty. From another, it's the eradication of property, the erosion of identity, that liberates. It's all in what one person is rebelling against and what the other has got. Satan, after all, is himself a famous liberator as well as a theologian.

IMG the inner cult of the goddess is profoundly antinomian and apocalyptic. Much like Jean Grey unbound, she is concerned with testing all propositions by setting them on fire. The truth will endure. Everything else will burn away. (Campbell talking about "prairie fire" now.) Transformed. Given a fresh start.

This is not in the service of the perpetuation of the world. There are of course, as you know, tricks of perspective here too . . . what the world means, what the self means, how they relate and ultimately which girl's mother will be bigger than other girls' (seven) mothers. People wrapped around the perpetuation of the world react with horror, outrage, disbelief. Modern CA, for example, is all about perpetuation to the point to which she will overlook just about everything but a direct assault on the systems that keep the world alive. 

We out here might concede that said systems include bestial acts but admitting this is alien to the CA sense of mission . . . the CA "identity." It requires what we gamers call an illumination. And by that point it's too late. (Campbell just asks how you know your identity.) You're liberated from the compatibility table, you can associate with certain people to get ideas from them. (Direct Campbell quote.) 

Arguably the compatibility table is the compromise as currently constructed. That can change. We've seen it.


 

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Fortuitously we were just playing an old Joseph Campbell lecture where he defines the vaishyas as "people of property" so here we are. From one point of view, identity, like property, is the foundation of liberty. From another, it's the eradication of property, the erosion of identity, that liberates. It's all in what one person is rebelling against and what the other has got. Satan, after all, is himself a famous liberator as well as a theologian.

IMG the inner cult of the goddess is profoundly antinomian and apocalyptic. Much like Jean Grey unbound, she is concerned with testing all propositions by setting them on fire. The truth will endure. Everything else will burn away. (Campbell talking about "prairie fire" now.) Transformed. Given a fresh start.

This is not in the service of the perpetuation of the world. There are of course, as you know, tricks of perspective here too . . . what the world means, what the self means, how they relate and ultimately which girl's mother will be bigger than other girls' (seven) mothers. People wrapped around the perpetuation of the world react with horror, outrage, disbelief. Modern CA, for example, is all about perpetuation to the point to which she will overlook just about everything but a direct assault on the systems that keep the world alive. 

We out here might concede that said systems include bestial acts but admitting this is alien to the CA sense of mission . . . the CA "identity." It requires what we gamers call an illumination. And by that point it's too late. (Campbell just asks how you know your identity.) You're liberated from the compatibility table, you can associate with certain people to get ideas from them. (Direct Campbell quote.) 

Arguably the compatibility table is the compromise as currently constructed. That can change. We've seen it.


 

And as both the Red Goddess' apocalyptic instincts and the compromise itself are both profoundly unstable and tottering in crisis, we get the Hero Wars. It is going to be up to mortals to hash this one out again.

[scott-martin]

"War is the creator of all great things," Campbell says, quoting Heraclitus. "It is through tension that the new thing comes forth. It's a very complicated problem. . . . you've heard, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. This doesn't mean you shouldn't have enemies. He says you should love your enemy."

That's a loophole for CA. CA can love her enemies without offering them comfort or aid. 

I think modern Yelmalio can accept the mothers and most of them think the mothers are the whole of the way. They can even hire themselves out in the mothers' wars. But when they discover the inner dynamics, they recoil. That's not what their identity is wrapped around. They can let that identity go and become something else. Or they can cling to that identity and see the goddess as an enemy . . . and their golden rule is different from ours.

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

"War is the creator of all great things," Campbell says, quoting Heraclitus. "It is through tension that the new thing comes forth. It's a very complicated problem. . . . you've heard, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. This doesn't mean you shouldn't have enemies. He says you should love your enemy."

That's a loophole for CA. CA can love her enemies without offering them comfort or aid. 

I think modern Yelmalio can accept the mothers and most of them think the mothers are the whole of the way. They can even hire themselves out in the mothers' wars. But when they discover the inner dynamics, they recoil. That's not what their identity is wrapped around. They can let that identity go and become something else. Or they can cling to that identity and see the goddess as an enemy . . . and their golden rule is different from ours.

And one can embrace an outer truth while still rejecting the inner truth. And vice versa.

[Eff]

Just now, scott-martin said:

Arguably the compatibility table is the compromise as currently constructed. That can change. We've seen it.
 

There's a kind of interesting logic to the compatibility table as it exists as a textual object in Cults of Terror, rather than with the intent as perfectly and flawlessly transmitted by the holy prophet GS more than thirty years later. The "cults" all seem to have logical, consistent worldviews... that aren't all that compatible with the further revelations that all of Glorantha was a grand Manichean-but-sexless struggle against Chaos that was simultaneously totally amoral.

Seven Mothers are studiously neutral to the potential targets of conversion, with the exception of Krarsht and Thanatar, and the only entity they really are enemies with is Mallia. They're associated with Primal Chaos, but fortunately the prophet GS didn't put that horned rune into their panoply before everything calcified on the runic symbology front, so we can have the delightful specter of Orlanth, Ernalda, etc. being too stupid to understand that the Lunar way is an ideology and that the Seven Mothers are not separable from the Red Goddess, the one leads into the other.

Bat cultists appear to be friendly to Eiritha and Daka Fal, but this surely must be a misprint, it contradicts the received authorial intent of GS.

Kyger Litor despises Chalana Arroy- I'll have to check Trollpak to see if this is contempt for wussy "healing" and "medicine" or what, but it's fascinating to think of KL as a "hateful" cult that might be hurtful to a White Lady. Studiously contrary to the eternal GSian intent, to be fair.

[Eff]

8 minutes ago, Eff said:

There's a kind of interesting logic to the compatibility table as it exists as a textual object in Cults of Terror, rather than with the intent as perfectly and flawlessly transmitted by the holy prophet GS more than thirty years later. The "cults" all seem to have logical, consistent worldviews... that aren't all that compatible with the further revelations that all of Glorantha was a grand Manichean-but-sexless struggle against Chaos that was simultaneously totally amoral.

Seven Mothers are studiously neutral to the potential targets of conversion, with the exception of Krarsht and Thanatar, and the only entity they really are enemies with is Mallia. They're associated with Primal Chaos, but fortunately the prophet GS didn't put that horned rune into their panoply before everything calcified on the runic symbology front, so we can have the delightful specter of Orlanth, Ernalda, etc. being too stupid to understand that the Lunar way is an ideology and that the Seven Mothers are not separable from the Red Goddess, the one leads into the other.

Bat cultists appear to be friendly to Eiritha and Daka Fal, but this surely must be a misprint, it contradicts the received authorial intent of GS.

Kyger Litor despises Chalana Arroy- I'll have to check Trollpak to see if this is contempt for wussy "healing" and "medicine" or what, but it's fascinating to think of KL as a "hateful" cult that might be hurtful to a White Lady. Studiously contrary to the eternal GSian intent, to be fair.

Ah, my oh my, I forgot Daka Fal, associated with Thed, friendly to Seven Mothers. Satan-Wakboth must have been whispering hard that day, to think that the judge of the dead might have a strong connection with Chaos, despite Chaos always having been planned as purely an unraveling or disintegrating force.

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

Storm Tribe.

Also Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes. 

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Eff said:

mischievous entries like Humakt being neutral to Primal Chaos

TL;DR: Eff is right.

Over-literal verbiage now optional:

Spoiler

But the Humakt cult didn’t have a problem with Chaos, surely, just the misapplication of death. So Vivamort and Thanatar are the big non-nos, and Mallia almost as bad (disease-victim spirits of disease as undead or the wrong kind of/misbehaving dead?), then ZZ (for skeletons & zombies).

Seven Mothers because one of them is a Humakti apostate.

Orlanth is the weird one. Very forgiving of the Humakti, that “3”. Or maybe they are grateful to O for kicking off the Forever War and keeping them in work. (More cynically, because they are both popular player character cults.)

What is the problem with Krarsht? Maybe — just maybe — the dead cultists’ tendency to fuse with the Devouring Mother (filed for future reference), rather than scurrying off to the appropriate Hell falls foul of the misbehaving dead strictures. (Or it could just be a professional thing: assassin versus counter-assassin. Nothing personal. Maybe.)

But the eternal agony of being devoured by the Bat is fine: maybe that is just going to an appropriate Hell — eternal suffering is character building, after all — it is unpleasant, but there is nothing funny going on.

Edited March 5, 2023 by mfbrandi
coffee + stupidity = too many words

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

But the Humakt cult didn’t have a problem with Chaos, surely, just the misapplication of death. So Vivamort and Thanatar are the big non-nos, and Mallia almost as bad (disease-victim spirits of disease as undead or the wrong kind of/misbehaving dead?), then ZZ (for skeletons & zombies).

Seven Mothers because one of them is a Humakti apostate.

Orlanth is the weird one. Very forgiving of the Humakti, that “3”. Or maybe they are grateful to O for kicking off the Forever War and keeping them in work. (More cynically, because they are both popular player character cults.)

What is the problem with Krarsht? Maybe — just maybe — the dead cultists’ tendency to fuse with the Devouring Mother (filed for future reference), rather than scurrying off to the appropriate Hell falls foul of the misbehaving dead strictures. (Or it could just be a professional thing: assassin versus counter-assassin. Nothing personal. Maybe.)

But the eternal agony of being devoured by the Bat is fine: maybe that is just going to an appropriate Hell — eternal suffering is character building, after all — it is unpleasant, but there is nothing funny going on.

Don't be ridiculous, the gods have always had the same relationship to Chaos unless they were Lunar or Chaotic (but I repeat myself! Bazinga!): seeing chaos as inimical to all life and engaged in perpetual struggles against it but not necessarily violence please don't take the things that we've said as implying that massacring Telmori babies is justified by their Chaotic taint sorry, don't know what that was, but yes. Constantly fighting Chaos. Uniform opinions on the subject, no matter what those satanic verses may tell you in your "textual sources". Next you'll be saying there was a time when we weren't at war with Eastasia.

[Rob Darvall]

On 3/4/2023 at 1:51 AM, mfbrandi said:

... Yelmalio cult ...so old-school and die-hard (or not at all), that the cult will have no truck with newfangled nonsense like Time and balance has an appeal. ... the Compromise is as alien to them as any other compromise.

For mine this is perhaps the core of Yelmalio; NO compromises.

We WILL go up the hill, get beaten repeatedly, and endure.

We WILL stand on the wall as the darkness decends because that's our duty.

There may be "Another Way" but we refuse it because it lessens us.

This placing of duty first is what lends Yelmalio to being a soldier's god. His faith empowers the individual to "stand and be still, to the Birkenhead drill".

[Erol of Backford]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

But Chalana Arroy - like all the Lightbringers - views the Red Goddess as an Enemy or at least Hostile to the cosmos. That also simply is.

But yet the unicorn headed guy in Dorastor has a troop of CA healers even they are all chaotic, what happened to the Lightbringers any chaos is all chaos?

[John Biles]

53 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

But yet the unicorn headed guy in Dorastor has a troop of CA healers even they are all chaotic, what happened to the Lightbringers any chaos is all chaos?

He's an illuminate, so breaking rules is his job.

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

But yet the unicorn headed guy in Dorastor has a troop of CA healers even they are all chaotic,

There's no restrictions on chaos creatures joining Chalana Arroy. They have to pass a divination test to prove they are sincere. The three priestesses would have to answer legitimate Lightbringers summons, however serving Ralzakark, Shrike and Manslime, it's unlikely they would ever have any contact with other Lightbringers. Note that Bloodrock doesn't appear to have any chaos features and isn't illuminated. 

6 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

what happened to the Lightbringers any chaos is all chaos?

A lightbringer who encounters a CA broo healer is effectively stymied. They can't kill a CA healer, even if a broo. Great roleplaying opportunity.

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

But yet the unicorn headed guy in Dorastor has a troop of CA healers even they are all chaotic, what happened to the Lightbringers any chaos is all chaos?

Or, you know, people run the cult entry exams, and if the examiner is an illuminate, they can write their own recruitment policy.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

what happened to the Lightbringers any chaos is all chaos?

A lightbringer who encounters a CA broo healer is effectively stymied. They can't kill a CA healer, even if a broo. Great roleplaying opportunity.

A great example of the Impossible Choice, or "Damned if you do Damned if you don't".

The same applies to geases, if someone has the Geas of "Kill all Chaotic things" and "Protect all healers", then meets a Chaotic Healer then they have to break one of their Geases. Some Players might complain about this, that the GM deliberately engineered the situation to target them, but that's tough.

It's a great way to show that Actions have Consequences. So, the Adventurer does something and has to suffer the consequences, no matter how harsh they are. It can result in a new story arc and can affect other parts of a campaign.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Or, you know, people run the cult entry exams, and if the examiner is an illuminate, they can write their own recruitment policy.

As Chalana Arroy just has a Divination check, it's a bonus if the examiner performing the Divination is illuminated, as they

Quote

will know as truth that Chaos is, in itself, neither evil nor inimical. [...] It makes a person free from automatic fear of Chaos and the obsession to destroy it. Likewise, it frees creatures of Chaos from their twisted convictions and offers them the chance to rid themselves of the hate that rules their lives.

Which is the only ability that all illuminates gain (others are rarer).

[Jeff]

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

TL;DR: Eff is right.

Over-literal verbiage now optional:

  Reveal hidden contents

But the Humakt cult didn’t have a problem with Chaos, surely, just the misapplication of death. So Vivamort and Thanatar are the big non-nos, and Mallia almost as bad (disease-victim spirits of disease as undead or the wrong kind of/misbehaving dead?), then ZZ (for skeletons & zombies).

Seven Mothers because one of them is a Humakti apostate.

Orlanth is the weird one. Very forgiving of the Humakti, that “3”. Or maybe they are grateful to O for kicking off the Forever War and keeping them in work. (More cynically, because they are both popular player character cults.)

What is the problem with Krarsht? Maybe — just maybe — the dead cultists’ tendency to fuse with the Devouring Mother (filed for future reference), rather than scurrying off to the appropriate Hell falls foul of the misbehaving dead strictures. (Or it could just be a professional thing: assassin versus counter-assassin. Nothing personal. Maybe.)

But the eternal agony of being devoured by the Bat is fine: maybe that is just going to an appropriate Hell — eternal suffering is character building, after all — it is unpleasant, but there is nothing funny going on.

Humakt is in general neutral towards most deities, except those that misuse Death or sanctify betrayal. He's friendly only to Orlanth and Ty Kora Tek. 

Humakt views the Red Goddess as an enemy and the Seven Mothers collectively as hostile. But Humakt is neutral towards Yanafal Tarnils - Humakt's opposition to the Red Goddess is not because of Yanafal Tarnils but something else, perhaps historical, perhaps cosmological - likely both.

 

[svensson]

Are we flogging the dead bolo lizard again? Some more? Still?

Much of this speculation will be revealed by this time next year, and @Jeff or Chaosium isn't going directly answer cosmological questions. They have a line of 10 books to sell us and they're not interested in spoiling the product releases.

All our questions will start getting answers come summer, so hold your Water till Fire Season, my merrie bande of trollkin.

Edited March 8, 2023 by svensson

[Jeff]

31 minutes ago, svensson said:

Are we flogging the dead bolo lizard again? Some more? Still?

Much of this speculation will be revealed by this time next year, and @Jeff or Chaosium is going directly answer cosmological questions. They have a line of 10 books to sell us and they're not interested in spoiling the product releases.

All our questions will start getting answers come summer, so hold your Water till Fire Season, my merrie bande of trollkin.

I'd rather have this horse being flogged in its own thread, rather than showing up everywhere else!