Question about Rune Points, Spells, and Initiation

[svensson]

The RQG rules allow someone initiating into the cult to choose whichever spell they wish when they sacrifice POW to establish the connection with the deity. Obviously, if the new initiate doesn't have the RP to cast said spell they simply can't cast it until they sacrifice POW to gain the RP to do so. But can someone initiating into a cult choose to sacrifice more than one point of POW in order to gain the RP to cast the spell?

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, svensson said:

But can someone initiating into a cult choose to sacrifice more than one point of POW in order to gain the RP to cast the spell?

Yes.  Based on RQG p.275 they must sacrifice the 1 point of POW to establish the link to the god. Also see p.313: "A cult member may sacrifice additional points of POW to the deity, increasing the number of Rune points with the deity and gaining greater access to cult special magic. The sacrifice requires a full week of prayer and meditation in the temple."  So, it's just a matter of spending time at the temple - there are no other restrictions noted.

 

[g33k]

I believe the RAW is that they gain 1 Rune-Spell (of any RP cost) per POW sac'ed.

Someone desperate for a 3-point Rune-spell upon 1st Initiation may well sac 3 points of POW so they can cast it... but they get 2 other Rune Spells in addition to their most-desired one.

I don't recall (but may be mis-recalling) any rule for sac'ing POW to one's deity and not getting back a Rune Spell in return... except...
There are minor deities with only a few Cult-Special Rune Spells.  Presumably when you have all the spells the deity can give you, you can still POW-Sac up to CHA in the Rune-Pool (actually, I think the "few" is the other way 'round -- there's only a very few deities offering more than 21 (max Human CHA) Rune Spells).

Edited April 6, 2023 by g33k

[DrGoth]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

(actually, I think the "few" is the other way 'round -- there's only a very few deities offering more than 21 (max Human CHA) Rune Spells).

The enchantment spells push the totals up. My reading of the rules is that they each count to the limit as well.  Specialist subcults would up it again.  From the base rulebook  I think Chalana Arroy, Ernalda, Eurmal (all those remove body part spells), Orlanth and I may have missed some have more than 21.

Here's a question.  Let's say I sacrifice to the limit of the number of spells that are available in my vicinity.  Then I sacrifice some more just to get extra points to cast things with.  Then I find a subcult with a spell I don't know.  I'm assuming you'd have to sacrifice for another point to get that spell, but someone might say "Hey, there are these points for which I didn't get a spell. Can I have this one now?"  Obviously the GM could choose to go either way, but I think the rules as written say no.

Edited April 6, 2023 by DrGoth
thought of something else

[Ludo Bagman]

Note that the access to spells is restricted by the cult site. For most small cults initiates will only have access to a shrine that grants one single special rune spell. If they want to learn more spells, they need to travel to a temple, a holy site of the god, or a shrine that offers a different rune spell (this is especially true for Eurmal). There may be some exceptions, for example the Great Hunt for the hunter cults, or a holy site during a holy day – enough initiates may temporarily gather to form the equivalent of a temple.

[Akhôrahil]

54 minutes ago, Ludo Bagman said:

Note that the access to spells is restricted by the cult site. For most small cults initiates will only have access to a shrine that grants one single special rune spell. If they want to learn more spells, they need to travel to a temple, a holy site of the god, or a shrine that offers a different rune spell (this is especially true for Eurmal). There may be some exceptions, for example the Great Hunt for the hunter cults, or a holy site during a holy day – enough initiates may temporarily gather to form the equivalent of a temple.

Some of these may even be restricted in various ways - while the spells of the Four Weapons are fully integrated into Orlanth Adventurous in Sartar, in other places you would have to join the right subcult before you could even access them (and they could potentially be stingy with memberships if so inclined).

[French Desperate WindChild]

From my perspective you sacrifice pow to your deity and that's the most important

if there is in the temple you sacrifice possiblity to learn a spell you don't know, you can (not mandatory, you choose to learn the secret) but if you know everything, or if the spells you don't know are not teached there, or for any reason you don't want to learn a spell, then you don't learn any spell, but you can continue to sacrifice POW (and gain rune pool if not the limit)

so you learn a 3 points rune spell by sacrificing 1 POW. If you don't have enough RP you know the spell but can't use it.

but you can sacrifice in one time 3 RP (or more) and learn the spell, 2 others if you wish, and raise your RP

 

A fervent worshiper will sacrifice pow without any gain expectation. You don't bargain, you offer

Edited April 7, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

 

A fervent worshiper will sacrifice pow without any gain expectation. You don't bargain, you offer

Yes!!!

It makes me wonder if there are (or should be) people with quite large Rune Pools, but few spells (even though many would be available) purely because they think like this. But it's only the PCs who crave the magic they get from their cults.

[Bren]

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

A fervent worshiper will sacrifice pow without any gain expectation. You don't bargain, you offer

But then they are consciously choosing to be less like their god than they could be. Rune spells replicate the attributes of the deity. The more spells you have, the more like the deity you can be. Choosing not to gain those attributes seems less fervent to me rather than more.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Bren

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

But then they are consciously choosing to be less like their god than they could be. Rune spells replicate the attributes of the deity. The more spells you have, the more like the deity you can be. Choosing not to gain those attributes seems less fervent to me rather than more.

I agree with you too that's the paradox 🙂

the issue I have (but it depends how you play the rune spell) is that players often use the spells like they want and the question then is... Is it what the god would do in the same circonstance ? would he use this spell or this one ?

 

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, Bren said:

But then they are consciously choosing to be less like their god than they could be. Rune spells replicate the attributes of the deity. The more spells you have, the more like the deity you can be. Choosing not to gain those attributes seems less fervent to me rather than more.

I can't agree with this, because the gods can have many different faces and aspects. And many different roles in community.

Your suggestion implies that everyone should join every aspect sub-cult of a particular god.

I think looking at Ernalda here might be a good example... her base special spell list has a variety of different roles - queen, healer, earth mother, grain goddess, midwife. So, someone could (very likely to) specialise as a midwife (Bless pregnancy & Reproduce) wouldn't need to take the queen or grain spells (ie, Charisma, Bless Champion, or Bless Crops, etc respectively). Similarly, a Grain Goddess/farmer type only needs Bless Crops, Command Swine, maybe the summoning of Earth elementals (to help in the the field), and maybe a Reproduce for the fields or a fruit tree., but not the Bless Champion, Inviolable, etc spells.

It also suggests that a good cultist will only take the Cult/god specific spells before taking any of the Associated cults spells...

I don't disagree that someone isn't going to be the full Ernalda by those limitations, but I don't think it's necessary to.

[Bren]

You raise some interesting points.

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Your suggestion implies that everyone should join every aspect sub-cult of a particular god.

I didn't intend to imply that. For one thing, I don't think most people in Glorantha are fervent worshippers. I also don't think most NPC initiates have more than 1, 2, or 3 Rune points. So for most initiates their choice would be, can I only embody one aspect (Rune spell) of the god or can I embody more than just one. So most people in Glorantha will focus on a limited set of aspects of a deity (such as midwife, crop fertility, or Queen) simply because they don't have more than a few Rune points. 

Once we get into exceptional NPCs (or PCs), there are a few cults like Orlanth and Ernalda, where there are too many spells available for most people to gain all of the Special Rune magic. They will have to be somewhat selective. For other cults, like Humakt, it is possible to gain all the Special spells, but only if Enchantments are not chosen. Adding those, once again the worshipper will have to be selective.

In regards to associated cult spells those to are aspects of the deity. They represent events in that deity's myths and they are cast with the same pool of points as are direct spells of the deity. Focusing on Orlanth's Sandals of Darkness isn't less Orlanth than Windwords or Thunderbolt. I see no conflict in choosing those associated aspects of the deity.

We may have a different underlying concept of the nature of the relationship between deity and worshipper. My view of pagan religious worship is that it is essentially a transactional relationship. One offered sacrifices and worship to a deity in return for something from the deity. In the real world it typically was the favor of the deity (good harvest, healthy children, victory in war) or to avoid disfavor or curses from the deity (sickness, plague, famine, or defeat). Gloranthan theism seems similar with the added bit that there are clear and unambiguous marks of favor in Glorantha (Rune spells) that the deity provides.

The idea that a deity should be worshipped with no expectation of anything in return seems more Calvinist Christian in nature to me. God has decided ahead of time who is saved and who is damned and nothing you do will change that. You can't bargain with god, so any worship is essentially unselfish. So a fervent worship worships for unselfish reasons.

On the other hand, if one has the view that the Gloranthan gods need POW sacrificed to them to maintain themselves like Apollo and the other Greek gods in the old Star Trek episode "Who Mourns for Adonis" then I can see why one might interpret someone who gives POW to the deity and takes less in return as being more devout. But I don't think the Gloranthan gods require worship to remain in the God Time of Glorantha. But if I did have that view, I would think that more people manifesting all the aspects of the deity would make the deity stronger not weaker. Whereas if nearly no one picks and uses the Morale spell or the Sandals of Darkness, maybe those aspects of Humakt or Orlanth are weakened. 

Given the transactional view I do have, I am having a difficult time reconciling a fervent Humakt worshipper with a worshipper who decides, "You know I don't want to be able to raise the Morale of my regiment of fellow Humakti's or Bind the Ghost of any of my dying fellows to the regimental standard, even if they would really, really like that. Sure I will be able to cast one more point of Shield or Cast Truesword one more time, but I won't ever do those other things. And the reason I don't want to be able to do those other things is that I am really strongly devoted to Humakt."

[Well that ended up to be a lot longer of a post than I thought it would be.]

[Bren]

19 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I agree with you too that's the paradox 🙂

Contradictory opinions, that seems pretty Gloranthan of you. 😉

Quote

 

the issue I have (but it depends how you play the rune spell) is that players often use the spells like they want and the question then is... Is it what the god would do in the same circonstance ? would he use this spell or this one ?

 

While I have seen players take actions that didn't fit what I saw as their cult beliefs, I don't think I've ever wondered would the god use this spell rather than that one. I may not fully understand what you mean. Is this something you've seen in play? Can you think of any examples?

Edited April 8, 2023 by Bren

[Akhôrahil]

21 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Your suggestion implies that everyone should join every aspect sub-cult of a particular god.

Not everyone, but for PCs, it’s (unfortunately) something of a no-brainer - it gives you stuff (or at least access to stuff) for free.

The GM should probably make sure to create some hassle for PCs when they overdo it, like having subcult leaders call on them to do particularly annoying jobs for them.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Not everyone, but for PCs, it’s (unfortunately) something of a no-brainer - it gives you stuff (or at least access to stuff) for free.

The GM should probably make sure to create some hassle for PCs when they overdo it, like having subcult leaders call on them to do particularly annoying jobs for them.

I would always make some hassle p Even if it's "oh, you want this Rune spell? Well, I'm rather busy at the moment, so if you come back later.... And, BTW, there's this thing that I really need (doing), any chance you'd be able to help out with it?" (or "someone else at the associated cult/temple/ring needs...").

I don't take the sacrificing of the POW for the Rune Point and the getting of the Rune Spell as being at the same time. For me, it takes time and training to cast the spells - you need to learn how to channel your god's power to do that. So, yes, you are entitled to that spell, but you may not get it at the same time.

Also, you need to keep up the commitment, and keep on doing what your god would do! (I've just had a thought as writing this... what if a player/person doesn't use a spell for quite a while... would any of you be nasty enough to remove it?? Because it's not emulating the god enough??)

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, Bren said:

I didn't intend to imply that. For one thing, I don't think most people in Glorantha are fervent worshippers. I also don't think most NPC initiates have more than 1, 2, or 3 Rune points. So for most initiates their choice would be, can I only embody one aspect (Rune spell) of the god or can I embody more than just one. So most people in Glorantha will focus on a limited set of aspects of a deity (such as midwife, crop fertility, or Queen) simply because they don't have more than a few Rune points. 

I challenge this view.

Everyone is going to get a POW gain roll at least twice a year (HHD & GT) - and with most people being around the 10-11 POW mark, and a successful roll gaining on average 1POW, that really means that most people are going to get +1POW per year (with diminishing returns, but possibly increased opportunities if they go to more Holy Day ceremonies).

The question then becomes - what do they do with that POW?

It's been suggested that it will power the local wyters... but how many of them will do that every year? Given there's a maximum power it can take, and there's going to be far more worshippers with available (newly gained extra) POW, I suggest that a lot more spells/RPs will be sacrificed for!

Off the top of my head, I'd suggest everyone in the clan would add 1 Rune Point every 3-5 years - minimum. (I presume there's been a thread or something about this somewhere... anyone??

 

11 hours ago, Bren said:

On the other hand, if one has the view that the Gloranthan gods need POW sacrificed to them to maintain themselves like Apollo and the other Greek gods in the old Star Trek episode "Who Mourns for Adonis" then I can see why one might interpret someone who gives POW to the deity and takes less in return as being more devout. But I don't think the Gloranthan gods require worship to remain in the God Time of Glorantha. But if I did have that view, I would think that more people manifesting all the aspects of the deity would make the deity stronger not weaker. Whereas if nearly no one picks and uses the Morale spell or the Sandals of Darkness, maybe those aspects of Humakt or Orlanth are weakened. 

Ummm, I'm fairly certain that is actually the canonical view... And it's why different "aspects" of gods give different powers. The Elmal/Yelmalio thing is a really good example here - if one doesn't worship that aspect, one doesn't get access to those spells. And if this is done over a long period of time, they effectively become unavailable (until someone brings it back again).

It is essential that the heroquests continue to keep on reinforcing the myths (aka, powers) of the gods in GodTime.

By not doing so, the god is diminished (yes, not having access to a particular Rune Spell is a form of diminution).

 

11 hours ago, Bren said:

Given the transactional view I do have, I am having a difficult time reconciling a fervent Humakt worshipper with a worshipper who decides, "You know I don't want to be able to raise the Morale of my regiment of fellow Humakti's or Bind the Ghost of any of my dying fellows to the regimental standard, even if they would really, really like that. Sure I will be able to cast one more point of Shield or Cast Truesword one more time, but I won't ever do those other things. And the reason I don't want to be able to do those other things is that I am really strongly devoted to Humakt.

Is this all that much different to taking geasa?

If you're the regimental commander (or higher), wouldn't the "distrust all X" be really frustrating to your troops when they're thinking they desperately need that alliance (or even just ceasefire or negotiation)?? (yes, I do think that if the commanding officer had that geas, they'd expect it to apply to the whole army... cos they're the ones who make those decisions - to trust/negotiate or not. I also doubt that a commanding officer would allow anyone in their command to assassinate anyone, nor to set an ambush - if they had the relevant geas).

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 hours ago, Bren said:

I don't think most people in Glorantha are fervent worshippers. I also don't think most NPC initiates have more than 1, 2, or 3 Rune points.

same for me

15 hours ago, Bren said:

For other cults, like Humakt, it is possible to gain all the Special spells, but only if Enchantments are not chosen. Adding those, once again the worshipper will have to be selective.

that's true, however, I disagree on one (or two) points there :

"have to be selective" well you know my english so maybe I m not fine there : a fervent worshipper doesn't have to be selective, should not "select" (= "choose") there is no choice if you trully follow the way (I just think about the mandalorian when I write it)

so no the 100% dedicated humakti doest not choose, he must take what is right.

What I mean there, of course a (fervent) humakti warrior will take morale if he sacrifices one pow, because it makes sense. Now will an ironsmith dedicated to his forge inside the biggest temple (the most secure) of the sword will always learn fighting secret ? If you follow the way of the steel, and if there is no reason to learn how to severe the spirit from the body because you have hundred people, the most famous warrior of any time here to protect you, is it really important ? the key word for me then is the @Shiningbrow "aspect"

Then my position is a merge between you an Shiningbrow:  I will follow you if you change god by aspect.

Yes a fervent humakti ironsmith must know all the secrets of Humakt's smith aspect. The others spells are sometimes opportunities or needs (a smith in a secret place with no people to protect him, should do what he can to protect the place) or waste of time

 

15 hours ago, Bren said:

We may have a different underlying concept of the nature of the relationship between deity and worshipper. My view of pagan religious worship is that it is essentially a transactional relationship. One offered sacrifices and worship to a deity in return for something from the deity. In the real world it typically was the favor of the deity (good harvest, healthy children, victory in war) or to avoid disfavor or curses from the deity (sickness, plague, famine, or defeat). Gloranthan theism seems similar with the added bit that there are clear and unambiguous marks of favor in Glorantha (Rune spells) that the deity provides.

The idea that a deity should be worshipped with no expectation of anything in return seems more Calvinist Christian in nature to me. God has decided ahead of time who is saved and who is damned and nothing you do will change that. You can't bargain with god, so any worship is essentially unselfish. So a fervent worship worships for unselfish reasons.

I don't know, no study there, I m a pure agnostic, no faith, but fear there is nothing and hope there is something. But in all cases my view is:

1) a lot of people, the majority, worship with the hope to obtain something they will no gain without the worship (how many people who did not worship when they were young start to worship when they fill the years condemn)

2) the fervent trust enough their god(s) to not ask, because they "know" their god(s) will do what is right, and them, poor people cannot understand everything, that's their god(s) attributes

Note I may be influenced by my homeland cultural heritage, that's sure

 

15 hours ago, Bren said:

I may not fully understand what you mean. Is this something you've seen in play? Can you think of any examples?

for example (don't see it in play but why not)

for any reason, a stormbull worshipper can cast only one spell to fight this chaotic monster. There is no choice, one spell or it is over. And he casts "shield". Will the Stormbull casts shield and nothing else before when he meets a chaotic monster ? would berserker be more appropriate ? Will Storm bull think to protect himself before destroying chaos ?

 

this humakti - or any honorable god-dess worhipper - knows (by divination or any thing)  that this baby  will become the destroyer of his clan in 5 years (don't ask why and how the child will do it, the only thing, there is no chaos joker there) What will do the god ? (maybe Humakt will kill the baby, you may know some myth about that, but there is at least one god who will... accept it as a fate, that is Destiny you see)

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[DrGoth]

17 hours ago, Bren said:

My view of pagan religious worship is that it is essentially a transactional relationship.

I think Gloranthan theism (like many things) is not one-dimensional. There is definitely a transactional aspect to it.  Otherwise why sacrifice in the hope of getting a good harvest?  Or access to rune spells. But there is definitely a genuine devotional side to it as well - hence the relevant passions.  The combination will be different in different people and different societies.

[PhilHibbs]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:34 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

A fervent worshiper will sacrifice pow without any gain expectation. You don't bargain, you offer

I don't think that most Gloranthans think that way. That's the kind of attitude that religions need to foster when they can't provide tangible benefits. Malkioni and Draconic/mystic cults might work that way, but not theists and animists.

Edited April 9, 2023 by PhilHibbs

[Squaredeal Sten]

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I challenge this view.

Everyone is going to get a POW gain roll at least twice a year (HHD & GT) - and with most people being around the 10-11 POW mark, and a successful roll gaining on average 1POW, that really means that most people are going to get +1POW per year (with diminishing returns, but possibly increased opportunities if they go to more Holy Day ceremonies).

The question then becomes - what do they do with that POW?

It's been suggested that it will power the local wyters... but how many of them will do that every year? Given there's a maximum power it can take, and there's going to be far more worshippers with available (newly gained extra) POW, I suggest that a lot more spells/RPs will be sacrificed for!

Off the top of my head, I'd suggest everyone in the clan would add 1 Rune Point every 3-5 years - minimum. (I presume there's been a thread or something about this .....

Two thoughts:

First,The populace does have another option: They may choose to keep their new point of POW, which will make them more powerful spell casters and less vulnerable to magic or possession.

So I would imagine a lower rate of RP and Rune spell acquisition.

Second, I do not see a limit to the points of POW that a wyter can have.  Where do you see that?

 

[Nick Brooke]

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Everyone is going to get a POW gain roll at least twice a year (HHD & GT)… The question then becomes - what do they do with that POW?

I have an answer in my Manifesto, but I don’t think you’ll like it.

[Joerg]

I have a simple answer to why not every quarrel between Orlanthi farmers will see lightnings zapping around: NPCs will have spent some of their rune points on sensible stuff any time you will encounter them. Much like they may be bruised after a cow kicked them or stepped on their foot, or similar stuff, if you need them to be (even) less competent than the standard stats suggest.

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

First,The populace does have another option: They may choose to keep their new point of POW, which will make them more powerful spell casters and less vulnerable to magic or possession.

I didn't mean to imply that I was ruling that out...

16 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So I would imagine a lower rate of RP and Rune spell acquisition.

Yes, but as above.

16 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Second, I do not see a limit to the points of POW that a wyter can have.  Where do you see that?

RQG p287 - "A wyter may receive sacrifices of characteristic POW from its members up to an upper limit based on the size and age of the community (see Wyter Size table)".  (my emphasis) The table starts at 4D6+6, so max of 35 for the lowest.

[Bren]

On 4/9/2023 at 2:11 AM, Shiningbrow said:

(I've just had a thought as writing this... what if a player/person doesn't use a spell for quite a while... would any of you be nasty enough to remove it?? Because it's not emulating the god enough??)

I wouldn't do that. In part, because it wouldn't be more fun for my players or me.

On 4/9/2023 at 2:27 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Everyone is going to get a POW gain roll at least twice a year (HHD & GT) - and with most people being around the 10-11 POW mark, and a successful roll gaining on average 1POW, that really means that most people are going to get +1POW per year (with diminishing returns, but possibly increased opportunities if they go to more Holy Day ceremonies).

Those are the rules for player characters. I don't apply the same rules to all the NPCs.

Quote

 

Ummm, I'm fairly certain that is actually the canonical view...

 

It's canonical that without continued POW sacrificed to the deities by their worshipers the deities would fade away? That surprises me. Do you have a citation?

Quote

It is essential that the heroquests continue to keep on reinforcing the myths (aka, powers) of the gods in GodTime.

I see that as a different thing from POW sacrifices to deities and I agree that is necessary to the continuation of the Compromise.

Quote

Is this all that much different to taking geasa?

Seems somewhat different to me. And I expect the geasa of commanders would have a big influence on what actions their regiment will entertain. Humakti regiments are going to be doing a lot of ambushing...and maybe none at all. Same with strong passions. Hate Lunar Empire 90% is going to make a permanent alliance with the Lunar Empire very difficult (if not impossible) to put in place and maintain.

[Bren]

On 4/9/2023 at 6:01 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Yes a fervent humakti ironsmith must know all the secrets of Humakt's smith aspect. The others spells are sometimes opportunities or needs (a smith in a secret place with no people to protect him, should do what he can to protect the place) or waste of time

Waste of time may be too strong, but overall I agree with you.

Quote

for any reason, a stormbull worshipper can cast only one spell to fight this chaotic monster. There is no choice, one spell or it is over. And he casts "shield". Will the Stormbull casts shield and nothing else before when he meets a chaotic monster ? would berserker be more appropriate ? Will Storm bull think to protect himself before destroying chaos ?

I don't think there is one right answer. Some Storm Bullers will be more thoughtful than others. But fighting Chaos is where I'd expect the true Storm Bull worshipper to use their Berserk spell. If they are thoughtful they will cast some defensive magic or ask their friends to cast some before they go Berserk. An impulsive Storm Bull worshipper of one run by an impulsive player may go straight to Berserk and charge! I've seen both happen in play.

Quote

this humakti - or any honorable god-dess worhipper - knows (by divination or any thing)  that this baby  will become the destroyer of his clan in 5 years (don't ask why and how the child will do it, the only thing, there is no chaos joker there) What will do the god ? (maybe Humakt will kill the baby, you may know some myth about that, but there is at least one god who will... accept it as a fate, that is Destiny you see)

Simply killing the child doesn't sound interesting or fun. Putting them in a reed basket and floating them down the river or leaving them alone in the forest are the actions of folk tales and myths. That's what should happen. YGMV and all that.