Monster Empire

[Akhôrahil]

9 hours ago, Manunancy said:

Did he really plan on bringing Sheng

Yes, he specifically asks for him, at least according to the source we have, King of Sartar:

"The treasures of Heaven were available to him: peace, food for his people forever, personal immortality, friendship with demigods, a homestead in Heaven, and his own star.
But all the gods were shocked when he asked for Sheng Seleris, an ancient enemy who had chased the Red Emperor off the earth, and had even scarred the celestial face of the Red Goddess when he was alive. But that demigod was beyond their reach, quarantined in a Hell which was made by the Red Goddess outside of their cosmos. The ancient gods could not do what they had said they would do, and as a result the whole of Genertela shuddered, and the Earth grandmother groaned, as if her bones were bending. The stars were afraid."

Additionally, this sounds suspiciously like a Compromise breach, which only makes it worse (although it's sorted out when Argrath goes to get Sheng Seleris personally).

(Also, note how Argrath could have asked for divinely-enforced peace here, and doesn't.)

Edited June 8, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Interesting that Argrath brings back Sheng

I think as noted in other threads about the LBQ, the quester does not ask for the resurrection of a specific individual, but for a restoration of the Grand Order. Sheng is the embodiment of that desire. Perhaps the flaw is that the return of the Grand Order is never what you expect.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

but it seems slightly harsh (even to Argrath) to blame him for what the Empire does when it's losing.

Gonna disagree, at least part way.  Argrath deliberately acquired Sheng for the explicit purpose of exterminating the Emperor, thus crippling the Pelorian government and society. Argrath should expect something very bad to happen.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I think as noted in other threads about the LBQ, the quester does not ask for the resurrection of a specific individual, but for a restoration of the Grand Order. Sheng is the embodiment of that desire. Perhaps the flaw is that the return of the Grand Order is never what you expect.

The KoS text is explicit that Argrath asked for Sheng in particular, though. Sure, it might not be reliable, but it’s what we have.

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

10 hours ago, Manunancy said:

Did he really plan on bringing Sheng

Yes, he specifically asks for him, at least according to the source we have, King of Sartar:

"The treasures of Heaven were available to him: peace, food for his people forever, personal immortality, friendship with demigods, a homestead in Heaven, and his own star.
But all the gods were shocked when he asked for Sheng Seleris, an ancient enemy who had chased the Red Emperor off the earth, and had even scarred the celestial face of the Red Goddess when he was alive. But that demigod was beyond their reach, quarantined in a Hell which was made by the Red Goddess outside of their cosmos. The ancient gods could not do what they had said they would do, and as a result the whole of Genertela shuddered, and the Earth grandmother groaned, as if her bones were bending. The stars were afraid."

Additionally, this sounds suspiciously like a Compromise breach, which only makes it worse (although it's sorted out when Argrath goes to get Sheng Seleris personally).

I remember attending a "Greg Reads" event at Conjunction of a Million Spheres, where he read this from the forthcoming King of Sartar, and was blown away by Argrath bringing back Sheng Seleris and performing an extension on the LBQ to do so.

[metcalph]

The Ice Mines (based on Pompeii and Fringe)

Within the Glaciers that surround the Monster Empire are several settlements that were unlucky enough to be caught.  They have not been ground to rubble beneath the Ice but rather quick-frozen - a cold mist descended upon the settlement and in one terrible instant turned into Ice.

The people inside are presumably still alive for nothing ever dies in the Monster Empire.  But most Ice Miners care little for them.  Instead they tunnel into frozen ruins seeking treasures and other artifacts that could be sold to realize a profit.  

Because it imperils the borders of the Empire that keeps out uncontrolled chaos, Ice mining is one of the few activities that Ralzakark has pronounced to be High Treason.  Due to the nature of the Empire, the Ice Miners generally labour for an imperial dignitary and protector.  The  frequent appearances of chaotic hordes in their lands is apparently worth it.

[Eagle Talon]

Personally I don't like the fact that we know the timeline and outcome of the Hero Wars. It's a little bit like starting a new novel that you already know the ending. 

Of course YGWV but I wish that I did not know what happened after 1627. Argrath becomes king of Dragon Pass and finally can rival the Red Emperor. Choose your side and let the games begin.

The Monster Empire is a great example. I really like Solar and Lunar mythology and happenings (for better or worse). But to know that Peloria is going to get thrashed in the end is disappointing for me.

However they're some positive points. One example is the Great Sister, daughter of Sedenya, and she likes to protect the little people so to speak. And the White Moon Movement offers great roleplaying hooks.

I just wish certain locations in the present day 1625, like Pamaltela or Maniria, would get more attention than to concentrate on the Hero Wars from start to finish. 

[EricW]

On 6/8/2023 at 6:42 AM, Manunancy said:

Did he really plan on bringing Sheng, or was it more 'let's dive into the worst lynar hells to find something they really fear and drag it out to trhow it in their faces'  - and teh 'something' happens to eb good old Sheng ?

Sheng was deliberate. Argarath shook the universe when he demanded Sheng in the Halls of Justice, and the gods of truth could not honour their promise

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Eagle Talon said:

The Monster Empire is a great example. I really like Solar and Lunar mythology and happenings (for better or worse). But to know that Peloria is going to get thrashed in the end is disappointing for me.

It's not known that the Peloria gets thrashed in the end.  All that has been described a battle in Holay and a battle in the upper Arcos Valley.  The effect of those battles were leadership changes (Sheng Seleris kills the Red Emperor and founds the Shadow Moon Empire etc).  Dragon Pass on the other hand has a Lunar Army marching through Boldhome and even when they have been made to leave, I doubt their damage will disappear quickly.

We know the Monster Empire is bad.  What we don't know is how the other lands around it fared.  

[Ormi Phengaria]

17 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The KoS text is explicit that Argrath asked for Sheng in particular, though. Sure, it might not be reliable, but it’s what we have.

Two interpretations:

1. Argrath just successfully performed the LBQ and the necessary instrument for the return of the Grand Order ended up being Sheng Seleris. There are a lot of reasons to believe this is the case, starting from the very first human LBQ bringing back Arkat. However, it seems evident that Sheng did not restore the Grand Order, and just made the Empire consecutively worse, it's probably safe to say. And there is one other very good reason to believe it isn't the case...

2. ...which is that it's not clear Argrath was even seeking the Grand Order at all. His goal is the destruction of the Lunar Empire and the Red Moon, which he swore by the Styx to do. Since the LBQ can't just accomplish this, one wonders why he performed it to begin with. It's possible Sheng's hell was only reachable by Ranging from this point, or that he was released as a consequence of Argrath's actions independently of his motivations. It's also known that Argrath prefers to keep gods in his debt.

[jajagappa]

17 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The KoS text is explicit that Argrath asked for Sheng in particular, though. Sure, it might not be reliable, but it’s what we have.

It is explicit, yet, it is not necessarily reliable.

What we know: Argrath went on the LBQ. What we know: Sheng Seleris returned from the Underworld. Proximity does not equal causality.

We also have the story that Jeff has shared on the first LBQ: A Story Every Orlanth Initiate Knows

As Jeff notes: "It is worth a careful read as there are some interesting details in this (and the story is more complete than in King of Sartar)." Orlanth goes to restore the Grand Order. There is no reason to think that Argrath does anything more than that when he sets out. (Doesn't rule out other motive, but doesn't imply it either.)

And then we have Harmast's LBQ: Harmast's Lightbringers Quest

Here the story goes: "And Harmast found the Mirror Fire, and returned with the Grand Order so that the Orlanthi could have a proper feast. And that was all correct. Arkat was there, and the feast was great.... What else could we ask for? The war of course would continue, but the Grand Order was back, at least for the moment."

And some further thoughts on the LBQ: Thoughts on the Lightbringers Quest

Specifically: "That’s the trick to understanding the Lightbringers Quest. It is not some paltry resurrection quest – although that is a part of it. The purpose of Harmast’s Lightbringers Quest was not to resurrect Arkat, but to make possible the defeat of Gbaji (an incarnation of the Devil)."

"In short, the Lightbringers Quest is not about resurrecting a person or god – it is about bringing life to a broken and dying cosmos."

And then the explicit point: "Why did he ask for Sheng Seleris? it is funny that people take that part of the Argrath Saga as a foundational truth, but ignore so much else in the Argrath Saga.

I think more disturbing to think is that Sheng Seleris is what the cosmos needed if Gbaji was to be defeated. How would we even know that Sheng was needed? Even assuming that Argrath’s Saga is an accurate recounting of events and not an Alexander Romance, even then, without Sheng Seleris could the White Moon have ever emerged from the Red?"

[Jeff]

46 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It is explicit, yet, it is not necessarily reliable.

What we know: Argrath went on the LBQ. What we know: Sheng Seleris returned from the Underworld. Proximity does not equal causality.

We also have the story that Jeff has shared on the first LBQ: A Story Every Orlanth Initiate Knows

As Jeff notes: "It is worth a careful read as there are some interesting details in this (and the story is more complete than in King of Sartar)." Orlanth goes to restore the Grand Order. There is no reason to think that Argrath does anything more than that when he sets out. (Doesn't rule out other motive, but doesn't imply it either.)

And then we have Harmast's LBQ: Harmast's Lightbringers Quest

Here the story goes: "And Harmast found the Mirror Fire, and returned with the Grand Order so that the Orlanthi could have a proper feast. And that was all correct. Arkat was there, and the feast was great.... What else could we ask for? The war of course would continue, but the Grand Order was back, at least for the moment."

And some further thoughts on the LBQ: Thoughts on the Lightbringers Quest

Specifically: "That’s the trick to understanding the Lightbringers Quest. It is not some paltry resurrection quest – although that is a part of it. The purpose of Harmast’s Lightbringers Quest was not to resurrect Arkat, but to make possible the defeat of Gbaji (an incarnation of the Devil)."

"In short, the Lightbringers Quest is not about resurrecting a person or god – it is about bringing life to a broken and dying cosmos."

And then the explicit point: "Why did he ask for Sheng Seleris? it is funny that people take that part of the Argrath Saga as a foundational truth, but ignore so much else in the Argrath Saga.

I think more disturbing to think is that Sheng Seleris is what the cosmos needed if Gbaji was to be defeated. How would we even know that Sheng was needed? Even assuming that Argrath’s Saga is an accurate recounting of events and not an Alexander Romance, even then, without Sheng Seleris could the White Moon have ever emerged from the Red?"

There's a lot in this, a lot more Truth than in most of this thread. And that last point should be really digested slowly because there is more than a little Truth there..

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Orlanth goes to restore the Grand Order. There is no reason to think that Argrath does anything more than that when he sets out.

Minor nit:  Orlanth went to restore the Grand Order with a change: himself as King.

As for Argrath, sure, nobody knows.  But, given that he returned with Sheng, used Sheng to anihilate the Emperor, which then brought about the horrors of the Monster Empire, many reasonable people would conclude that Argrath had other plans than restoring the Grand Order.  Creating a new, vastly different and arguably better Order, maybe.  Restoring, no.

[Darius West]

On 5/28/2023 at 8:35 PM, mfbrandi said:

I get that, but suppose the Lunars had all sprouted third eyes and wormlike prehensile tails, and that they levitated for three hours every evening. What then? In my book, that still wouldn’t justify genocide.

No, what justifies the genocide is the fact that the Lunars have set out to destroy other people and their cultures, and THEN, when the tide turns, the Lunars choose to turn to the Enemies of All Existence, Chaos, and casually adopt those powers en masse, so they can continue with their plan, because their initial efforts had failed.  

[DrGoth]

9 hours ago, Eagle Talon said:

Personally I don't like the fact that we know the timeline and outcome of the Hero Wars. It's a little bit like starting a new novel that you already know the ending. 

Of course YGWV but I wish that I did not know what happened after 1627. Argrath becomes king of Dragon Pass and finally can rival the Red Emperor. Choose your side and let the games begin.

The Monster Empire is a great example. I really like Solar and Lunar mythology and happenings (for better or worse). But to know that Peloria is going to get thrashed in the end is disappointing for me.

However they're some positive points. One example is the Great Sister, daughter of Sedenya, and she likes to protect the little people so to speak. And the White Moon Movement offers great roleplaying hooks.

I just wish certain locations in the present day 1625, like Pamaltela or Maniria, would get more attention than to concentrate on the Hero Wars from start to finish. 

Then don't take it as the end. Like I said earlier, take it as "this is what happens without PCs".  It's a source of inspiration, not a dictate.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

20 minutes ago, Darius West said:

No, what justifies the genocide...

One of the few things Greg was very clear on was that "the Lunars are not the bad guys".  You can give them black hats in your game, but then Your Glorantha Has Varied.

For the record, I think your points are questionable, but I'll leave that to others.

[Darius West]

31 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

One of the few things Greg was very clear on was that "the Lunars are not the bad guys".  You can give them black hats in your game, but then Your Glorantha Has Varied.

For the record, I think your points are questionable, but I'll leave that to others.

An Empire of Broos run by Ralzakark?  Seriously not the bad guys?  Anyone who thinks that should go and become a citizen of that empire and see what they do to you.  It is going to take some seriously demented illuminated doublethink to convince anyone that a Broo empire is not the bad guys.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

8 minutes ago, Darius West said:

An Empire of Broos run by Ralzakark?  Seriously not the bad guys?  Anyone who thinks that should go and become a citizen of that empire and see what they do to you.  It is going to take some seriously demented illuminated doublethink to convince anyone that a Broo empire is not the bad guys.

They are bad guys for sure.  My argument is with your earlier post where you say

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

the Lunars choose to turn to the Enemies of All Existence,

Did "the Lunars", whatever that nebulous phrase means, really "choose" this?

Nor do I think that earlier (circa 1620) "the Lunars" set out to destroy other people and their cultures.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Rodney Dangerduck

[JRE]

One of the common threads hinted above is that the leader of the LBQ is surprised by the end result, even if they are succesful and get what they want. As it was also discussed with Kallyr's short LBQ, a succesful LBQ strengthens the Cosmos and the Compromise, besides whatever the quester is looking for. But it is a gamble, because a failed one weakens the heroquesters, the Cosmos and the Compromise.

Which makes me think that Argrath's LBQ actually failed. And my own take is that he failed it deliberately in order to go further. By engaging in creative heroquesting in Hell, he missed the setting of grievances and the peace between sun and storm, and even worse, missed the Compromise.

So although I am quite sure it was not anything he wanted specifically, he opened the way for the Monster Empire, and probably did it even further when he realized that despite his expectations Sheng did not destroy the Moon, just took it over, so he had to take him out as well.

I know that I tend to present Argrath as a manipulating overlord, because that is how I see him, and how he acts from an Orlanthi point of view (all Emperors are bad, and Argrath is clearly an Emperor), but he is also a genius with a purpose, and he achieves that purpose, no matter what gets broken in the process.

 

[Eff]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

One of the few things Greg was very clear on was that "the Lunars are not the bad guys".  You can give them black hats in your game, but then Your Glorantha Has Varied.

For the record, I think your points are questionable, but I'll leave that to others.

Well, you see, when it's entirely fictional people and you're arguing that their fictional genocide is justified because of what is straightforwardly a conspiracy theory, then of course you're not doing anything questionable. It would only become questionable if this hypothetical person were to suggest, say, a series of death marches into inhospitable terrain and then confinement in concentration camps for the dastardly genocidal Lunars and their dastardly genocidal children. 

[Nick Brooke]

Eff and I left another Gloranthan discussion group when the moderator decided normalising eliminationist rhetoric on Holocaust Memorial Day was absolutely fine and nothing for anybody to get upset about.

I don't like the way some people push their own weird fantasies of justified genocide ("but it's authentically Bronze Age!") into Glorantha, and I dearly wish they would stop, but you simply can't reason with fanatics.

[EricW]

57 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Eff and I left another Gloranthan discussion group when the moderator decided normalising eliminationist rhetoric on Holocaust Memorial Day was absolutely fine and nothing for anybody to get upset about.

I don't like the way some people push their own weird fantasies of justified genocide ("but it's authentically Bronze Age!") into Glorantha, and I dearly wish they would stop, but you simply can't reason with fanatics.

In the fantasy which is Glorantha, Argrath turned away from genocide. 

Quote - King of Sartar

 

... The empire, in response, summoned the Seven Granddaughters of the Red Moon, The Twin Fire Demons, the Vampire Legion of Karn, the Stonewall Soldiers, the Fingers of the Goddess, the Jailers of the Dandarath, the Blue Wizards, the Blue Serpent, and the Moon Wind. But, as was his way, Argrath did not do what everyone expected him to do. He did not wish to hazard the lives of all the best beings of body and spirit against the gods of entropy, as if this was another Battle of Doom.

Instead, Argrath called upon all the powers of his left hand, which he had used only once. With whoever would help him from each direction he did the Dragon Move, and in that way called into his presence Sh’harkazeel, which was promised freedom in return for its honest and true assistance. ...

 

Arkat tried genocide and it didn't work. Argrath tried something else, and was much more successful at ending the chaos threat, or at least deferring it into the impossibly distant future. 

Glorantha is full of uncomfortable topics, it has always been a playground for philosophy and ideas, where consequences can be explored without the risk of people actually being injured or killed. I'd rather explain to someone why they are wrong, than silence them for advancing an idea I don't like.

[DrGoth]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

An Empire of Broos run by Ralzakark?  Seriously not the bad guys?  Anyone who thinks that should go and become a citizen of that empire and see what they do to you.  It is going to take some seriously demented illuminated doublethink to convince anyone that a Broo empire is not the bad guys.

A broo empire is not the lunar empire. And the reference was to the Lunars, not to Ralzakark. It's bit of a stretch confusing them with somene who might usurp them .  What about a possible future where Sheng kills Argrath, takes over Sartar and goes on a killing spree across Genertela? Would that justify someone saying "kill all Orlanthi"?

[Jeff]

This thread has run its course, hitting a nadir of genocide and genocidal straw men. I'm locking it down. If people want to restart it, they can create a new thread.