Conflicting Illuminations? Draconic vs Nysalorean.

[Malin]

Well, I finally have a working computer again and have perused the Lunar Gods codex. One thought struck me...

What about conflicting sources of Illumination? If you are, for example, Draconically Illuminated, would a Lunar/Nysalorean Illuminate sense/see you as one? And in reverse? I remember reading (probably somewhere on the Well of Daliath) that there were subtle differences, and that Nysalorean Illumination tended to create a mythical opposition if you pushed too far and hard into it, like could happen if you heroquest too hard and suddenly have yourself a Nemesis. While on the other hand, Draconic/Mystical Illumination was more balanced within the individual. and since it often strived towards detachment from the world in a more mystical way, it didn't create the same sort of opposition because you contained your enemy within yourself. I wish I could remember where I read it though...

That being said, what do y'all feel about the source of Illumination? Does it matter? Can people smell the type? Is there no type, just different schools teaching different traditions (the Sevening Path vs Draconic Consciousness)? Does it matter once you're powerful enough?

I think the way I see it is that Illumination is the same, but how people teach it matters. Just like some gods have many names, but the core is the same. Yelm or Shomash? Depends on where you are. So, in my view, someone can get, for example, Draconically Illuminated and then decide to use that to change the world instead of finding their own balance and striving towards a higher form of life with Right Action and so on. In that case they would absolutely affect the world in the same way as a Nysalorean Illuminate and their own dark/light shadow.

Another thing, I know the forum is rather loud about their Argrath views, but what do you think? Was he a Draconic illuminate or a Nysalorean one? I can see arguments for both.

[theconfusingeel]

I'd say that the differences are more about the path they used to achieve illumination. If you get illuminated by being detached you're probably going to continue being detached.
I imagine that draconic illumination has the same secret knowledge as the nysalorean type, seeing that the void is a type of chaos.

[Joerg]

Greg gave us a fairly descriptive record of the mystical advances Ingolf Dragonfriend underwent before he squandered it all, and then started again and almost caught up with his previous insights. That seems to be a theme with Greg's mystical heroes - Hrestol too made three attempts to achieve the highest level of henosis, one in Seshnela leading to his theomachy of Ifttala, one in Loskalm making him King and Founder, and a third cut short by the Brithini who martyred him.

Going astray during your advance through the mystical challenges is a very present danger. A lot of the leading Dragonspeakers during the EWF didn't mind much as long as they were able to manifest dragons and maintain the Proximate Holy Realm allowing them to do so.

Sensing illumination in others is an illumination ability. The Arkati can recognize Nysaloreans (if only by excluding Arkati giving the correct secret responses). Nysaloreans may identify Arkati as illuminates, but can they pinpoint their training?

Kralorela practices a blend of solar and draconic illumination. The degree of enlightenment of Kralori functionaries of various ranks is yet unknown.

[Memestream]

I always rationalized the difference between Nysalorean illumination and Draconic illumination as somewhat analogous to the difference between a "Master of the Tao" and a "Bodhisattva." Both "see the matrix in code," but the "Master of the Tao" uses that knowledge to exploit the game for max score while the "Bodhisattva" uses that knowledge to encourage others to stop paying their monthly WoW subscription and move on to other things. Sort of a Western Mystery Tradition "Left-hand" and "Right-hand" type of relationship existing between them.

To the unilluminated, there's no real way to distinguish between the two. Between themselves, they stand as good of a chance of distinguishing what "sort of illumination" the other one is possessed of as two mundane people have at discerning one another's motives. I also kind of take it that both can fall off their own path and wind up on the other's path, and similar to the way the "immature dragons" wound up becoming dragonewts, they can even pigeonhole themselves into a very narrow wavelength that would no longer be recognizable as being even sentient, much less illuminated.

Obviously a very "just me take" on it though.

YET ANOTHER EDIT: Maybe a "Rishi" would be a better reference than "Master of the Tao" since both Rishis and Bodhisattvas exist in the same cosmology.

Edited May 29 by Memestream
formatting fidgetry

[Erol of Backford]

10 hours ago, Malin said:

I think the way I see it is that Illumination is the same

110% agree.

Why different ways of teaching the same type of thing...

The Tao of Pooh; The Te of Piglet - how does chaos taste to Gloranthian mystics? Some feel it is sour, some bitter, but Lunars find it satisfying?

YGWV.

[metcalph]

Judging by the setup of the Lunar Empire (1% of the population worships the Red Goddess in the Silver Shadow and perhaps up to three that number awaiting admission as well as Yelm Imperators and Dayzatar worshippers), I doubt that illuminated Draconists and Arkati are very numerous.  More people will have the Illumination skill or equivalent (like say Charismatic Wisdom) but that can't really be detected.

[Akhôrahil]

13 hours ago, Malin said:

Another thing, I know the forum is rather loud about their Argrath views, but what do you think? Was he a Draconic illuminate or a Nysalorean one? I can see arguments for both.

Tricky. You would think Draconic, but then he’s Arkat Reborn, so…

And he acts much more like a Nysalorean/Arkating, (ab)using his powers and looking for (finding!) the cheat codes of the Cosmos.

Given that he's Argrath, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he were both, context-switching between them for advantage.

About the types. I think there are at the very least practical differences - Draconic Illumination is probably a lot less interested in hiding your Chaos taint, because you preferably shouldn't have one. The biggest difference is probably the methods, though - Nysaloreanism mass-produces Illuminates by a drastic process with high failure rates (both the people it leaves broken after failing and its percentage of Occluded). I imagine Draconic masters would be appalled at learning about the low standards of Illumination in the Lunar Empire.

Edited May 29 by Akhôrahil

[davecake]

14 hours ago, Malin said:

What about conflicting sources of Illumination?

Two schools of Illumination can of course disagree about mortal things like morality, and so come into conflict, as Arkat and Nysalor do to the point of vicious total war, and disagree about practical, pragmatic things like the best teaching methods, though this rarely comes to overt conflict unless it becomes linked with said moral concerns. But I don't think they can really disagree about the nature of Illumination, only how to reach it. If there is a difference between your unity with the All and another unity with the All, then at least one of them isn't unity with the All. And so on. 

14 hours ago, Malin said:

If you are, for example, Draconically Illuminated, would a Lunar/Nysalorean Illuminate sense/see you as one? And in reverse?

Yes. Though remember not all Illuminates have this power at all. 

14 hours ago, Malin said:

Nysalorean Illumination tended to create a mythical opposition if you pushed too far and hard into it, like could happen if you heroquest too hard and suddenly have yourself a Nemesis

I think this is extrapolation that isn't correct. I think if you are a Nysaloran who heroquests a lot and 'pushes too far' you will attract a hero quest nemesis - possibly a version of yourself, though, or similar strange mystic opposition, in addition to normal hero quest opposition. I think if you are a dragon mystic who heroquests a lot and 'pushes too far', you will attract a hero quest nemesis too - thought the EWF mystics, compared to the Bright Empire, and more likely to advise you that this is a bad idea. 

14 hours ago, Malin said:

there were subtle differences

There are practical differences, reflecting the individuals history of how they approach Illumination and their practices and so on. This is reflected in not all individuals having access to all the Illumination powers, and developing different 'post Illumination' powers (Dragon magic, Red Goddess Magic). But really, it's just a matter of your mortal understanding of what is possible. As they get more advanced in their understanding of Illumination, the differences become smaller. 

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

I found Andrew Logan Montgomery’s writing on the differences to be formative; it naturally also plays an underlying thematic role in The Company of the Dragon.

[Memestream]

Arhat...

Arkat...

How on earth did I miss that for so darned long?

Quote

Stafford intentionally or accidentally (I suspect the former) mirrored in Illumination and Draconic Mysticism the terrestrial differences between liberation in the Hindu tradition (specifically Advaita Vedanta) and in the Buddhist tradition (specifically the older Theravada tradition).

Is there an echo in here?

But seriously, it's a topic that's always fascinated me to no end. Ravana strikes me as the archetypical Nysalorean illuminate, with Buddha standing as the draconic equivalent. It only becomes more interesting as the evolving traditions eventually make attempts to reconcile the two, such as the numerous avatars of Vishnu, which seem to represent multiple contradictory brands of illumination between them. 

I love it in the context of Glorantha because the setting seems to appropriately convey that these different brands of illumination are all representative of some sort of supra-phenomenon manifesting with apparent distinction within time due to the limited medium, like a three dimensional object sliding through a two dimensional space, it *appears* to change shape as it does so, but if you could step outside of Arachne's web, you would see it's all the same beast. 

Blind Men and an Elephant

That said, I don't see "illuminati" within Glorantha as having made the full journey.  They've made the first step in realizing that it's all the same animal, but that doesn't mean they see the beast in its full glory.

Edited May 29 by Memestream

[mfbrandi]

On 5/28/2024 at 6:17 PM, Malin said:

if you heroquest too hard and suddenly have yourself a Nemesis

I find this irresistible. I know we are not supposed to inject any TT into this particular RPG, but really what is with the snakes and spiders? Heroquesting as change war. And what is experimental heroquester Arkat but a Heinleinian self-made man, or Gerrold’s riff on them, the man who folded himself? He bootstraps his own god in ZZ and his own nemesis in Nysalor … and they are both him. He knows where he is with them, keeps it all in the family. In loops he is comfortable, but the rest of us are just deracinated zombies — inevitably, something is left dangling. Of course, they had to put him away in the end — completely off his rocker.

If I had to distinguish two types of illumination, I might go for union with the all and union with the none. We might pick one as the un/real deal, or we might say that the idea that they were different was a form of occlusion, was missing the whole point of the impossibility of separating Chaos from Cosmos. We might …

Spoiler

None of this constitutes an expert view, of course. Very far from it.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1. IMO Arkati Illumination === Nysalor Illumination.  I know of no material stating that they are different - let me know if you have any.  And Arkat was illuminated while living with the elves, who were strong Nysalor supporters.
2. As for Argrath, he sure acts like a PC, er, a power-grubbing Nysalor Illuminant.  I doubt that he is a Draconic Illuminant.  If he is, he sure ain't following Andrew's take on it.

[EricW]

There was a character in “Blood of Orlanth” 2nd age scenario who was the epitome of someone attempting to achieve enlightenment the wrong way, who in one variation of the scenario achieved apotheosis and corrupted a true dragon by hacking the cosmos.

I’m not sure whether Blood of Orlanth is still canon but it was a great taste of the abuses which occurred in the empire of the wyrms friends- so Argrath abusing his magic is not proof his illumination is Nysalorian 

Edited May 29 by EricW

[Memestream]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I find this irresistible. I know we are not supposed to inject any TT into this particular RPG,

Wait, we're NOT? I've been reading it like everything points to just short of explicitly stating that once you go into the Otherside/Gods Time that you're interacting trans-temporally across all of "regular time" and people Heroquesting the day after the Dawn are in the same place as people Heroquesting 1600 years after the Dawn. I also assumed that if somebody "got lost" on the Other Side they could easily step back out in a different part within "regular time" altogether.

I really felt like 'timeless,' 'outside of time,' and 'eternal' as descriptors for the Other Side were encouraging that reading too. 😳

[Ali the Helering]

I am always interested when source material informs us that a movement was 'wiped out'.  One thing RW history teaches is that 'wiping out' is more easily said than done.  Especially when it comes to religion.🙃

Therefore I am interested as to whether anyone has ideas about the Old Good Shadow school, given that they practised Umbarite rather than Nysalorian ways, and were undetectable using anti-Nysalorian methods.

If they do continue to have a hidden existence, where would one expect to find it?  How might they interact with Nysalorian/Lunar/Draconic or any other form of mysticism?

[mfbrandi]

12 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As for Argrath, he sure acts like a PC, er, a power-grubbing Nysalor Illuminant.

Well, the temptation to treat one’s own wants as the universe’s needs doesn’t really have anything to do with any kind of illumination (or sound reasoning) — you must have met people (or seen them on TV running for public office) with no insight into anything who treat the world that way — so maybe we don’t have to posit different kinds of illumination to explain why some illuminants are corrupt. However, the disconnect cuts both ways, and it is probably wishful thinking to hold that there is some kind of religious experience that will protect one from all temptation.

Which is not to say there isn’t more than one kind of illumination. There are green cars and there are red cars, but they run you over just the same. Maybe there are differences that are not interesting — purely cosmetic, even. What game need would having two lots of illumination rules to learn serve?

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, Memestream said:

I really felt like ‘timeless,’ ‘outside of time,’and ‘eternal’ as descriptors for the Other Side were encouraging that reading too. 😳

Don’t panic: those descriptions don’t really scream backwards and forwards in time, so your preferred understanding may be safe. Not really the thread for me to waffle on any more about it, so I won’t.

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, EricW said:

I’m not sure whether Blood of Orlanth is still canon but it was a great taste of the abuses which occurred in the empire of the wyrms friends- so Argrath abusing his magic is not proof his illumination is Nysalorian

It's never been canon (no Mongoose content ever has been). However, I liked that part of the scenario and have drawn on it in some of my campaigns.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

It's never been canon (no Mongoose content ever has been). However, I liked that part of the scenario and have drawn on it in some of my campaigns.

I like the full scenario, however I would be interested to know what is not canon because I don't see anything in opposition with what I know of the canon (but I m far from a lore master status) ?

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

however I would be interested to know what is not canon

There are no Mongoose books that are canonical. If any of them drew on material that now informs a canonical source (e.g. the Guide, the Glorantha Sourcebook), then it is compatible (but that does not equate to canonical).

[French Desperate WindChild]

35 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

There are no Mongoose books that are canonical. If any of them drew on material that now informs a canonical source (e.g. the Guide, the Glorantha Sourcebook), then it is compatible (but that does not equate to canonical).

Yep maybe my question should have been « compatible » then 😀

the question is not about the « lawmaker » but about the lore

[John Biles]

The fundamental difference between Nysalorean illumination 'done right' is that Nysalorean Illumination empowers you to act freely in the world, and Draconic Illumination is supposed to withdraw you from the world.  Nysalor wants you to see the Truth of the World and Dragons want you to escape the world.

When abused, both look similar, but if you're not occulted they look different.

Also, Nysalorean Illumination is essentially amoral, and Draconic Illumination teaches an ethic of undoing your influence on the world and withdrawing from it.

I expect Nyasalorean illumination is a lot more likely to lead to occultation because it essentially says 'morality is bullshit'.

 

 

[metcalph]

I think Illumination before the Red Goddess was based on the Fire Rune but because Nysalor was dead, it was much harder - base skill of Fire/10 perhaps.

The Arkati obtain illumination through Ranging i.e. "Other events—such as a heroquest—that go off in an unexpected direction" LW p95 

Draconic Illumination is probably based on Speak Auld Wyrmish for its base chance.  I suspect the Kralori use written Kralori.  I note that p94 says that Illuminates are rare in Ralios and Kralorela so there might be some impediment there.  

Umbarism and Silence may be based on the Darkness Rune.  There is a mention of Insanity Cults which in light of the Madness triggering suggests this was the Umbarite primary method of obtaining awareness.  I suspect people were deliberately possessed by certain malign spirits.

Any illumination skills are probably not compatible so having a skill in Lunar Illumination will not give you any benefit with Draconic illumination.

[Ynneadwraith]

On 5/29/2024 at 3:50 PM, davecake said:

If there is a difference between your unity with the All and another unity with the All, then at least one of them isn't unity with the All.

Now we're talking 😉 perhaps none of them are.

All variants of illumination as imperfect fragments of the One True Truth taught by Rashoran, and that died with him/her. Nysalorians might claim heritage from Rashoran's teachings, but who knows if they've pieced the vessel back together right, or if the gold they've repaired it with has changed the nature of the thing. All of these people running around thinking they're illuminated because they can mix and match runes, but are missing a fundamental piece of the puzzle that renders them safe. A little knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge at all.

Then again, I do like my mystery cults. And if you discover what the mystery is it's not a mystery anymore, so you need another layer of mystery to keep the punters coming back and paying their membership fees.

As mentioned on the Lunar Observations thread, it's cow tools all the way down...

Edited May 31 by Ynneadwraith

[Akhôrahil]

On 5/29/2024 at 4:50 PM, davecake said:

If there is a difference between your unity with the All and another unity with the All, then at least one of them isn't unity with the All. And so on.

Seems like a lot of interaction between Illuminates comes down to:

"I'm one with the Cosmos."
"No, I'm one with the Cosmos!"
*they fight*

Edited May 31 by Akhôrahil