That Charming Sword...

[davecake]

My players were really quite surprised to discover that Swords of Humakt must have an 18 CHA now. Years of the taciturn, loner, grim and silent, Humakti stereotype, and we discover they are all lovable and pleasant types! 

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

Charisma isn't all about being nice. Darth Vader would have 18+ CHA in RuneQuest, he's a powerful leader and people do what he says.

The Conversion Guide should mention something about converting Rune Lords who don't have 18 CHA/APP though!

Edited August 15, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Dragonsnail]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Charisma isn't all about being nice. Darth Vader would have 18+ CHA in RuneQuest, he's a powerful leader and people do what he says.

The Conversion Guide should mention something about converting Rune Lords who don't have 18 CHA/APP though!

Sarostip is a real nice and charming fellow.

[styopa]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

My players were really quite surprised to discover that Swords of Humakt must have an 18 CHA now. Years of the taciturn, loner, grim and silent, Humakti stereotype, and we discover they are all lovable and pleasant types! 

IMO the entire 18CHA thing wasn't entirely a bad idea, but was tossed into the rules without a lot of thought.  It's fine if you're envisioning the very-pedestrian Orlanthi, Ernalda, or Yelmalion.  It's less supportable if you're thinking of (as you mention) a loner, Outlaw Josey Wales sort of Humakti, or even less a cringing, skulking Malian or Krarshti.  I get of course that CHA isn't APP, but no, I don't know that it makes sense that every cult necessarily even requires a strong, compelling personality.  I don't buy the idea that CHA = reknown, either.  They're pretty distinct concepts.

It's already been highlighted elsewhere that other cults have species that can't even REACH 18 CHA.

It certainly makes sense that SOME cults have that requirement, just like other cult-specific requirements.  But the blanket "they all must have this" like a "you must be this tall to be a Rune Lord" is silly - we're disregarding it.

[davecake]

Yes, it is true, that a general so inspiring that their troops will follow them into the valley of the shadow of death etc sounds like one model for a sword. 

But only one. And the tactiturn loner, the monk of death, etc are pretty valid as well. 

A Sword of Humakt with 18 CHA works. But it doesn't really work as a requirement - it kind of changes the whole feel of the cult. I think it is a rule I will be disregarding mostly. 

[Joerg]

24 minutes ago, davecake said:

Yes, it is true, that a general so inspiring that their troops will follow them into the valley of the shadow of death etc sounds like one model for a sword. 

But only one. And the tactiturn loner, the monk of death, etc are pretty valid as well. 

A Sword of Humakt with 18 CHA works. But it doesn't really work as a requirement - it kind of changes the whole feel of the cult. I think it is a rule I will be disregarding mostly. 

A forbidding aura is also a possible expression of high charisma.

I wouldn't have thought it possible, but I experienced cornering an opponent in rubber sword fencing (someone with more experience than myself) by projecting killing intent (at Castle Stahleck) and not a single swing of my implement.

[David Scott]

There are lots of different character types that Charisma 18 supports. However, the rune levels of the cult are the leaders, even if reluctant. Their  actions alone will increase their charisma (page 420, which implies that you can have a cha of 17 and become a rune level”. A Humakt rune lord needs charisma 18 to say follow me into battle and die by my side, it will be a glorious death. Other cults need it too, fagin is a classic high charisma crim.

[Jeff]

58 minutes ago, styopa said:

IMO the entire 18CHA thing wasn't entirely a bad idea, but was tossed into the rules without a lot of thought.  It's fine if you're envisioning the very-pedestrian Orlanthi, Ernalda, or Yelmalion.  It's less supportable if you're thinking of (as you mention) a loner, Outlaw Josey Wales sort of Humakti, or even less a cringing, skulking Malian or Krarshti.  I get of course that CHA isn't APP, but no, I don't know that it makes sense that every cult necessarily even requires a strong, compelling personality.  I don't buy the idea that CHA = reknown, either.  They're pretty distinct concepts.

It's already been highlighted elsewhere that other cults have species that can't even REACH 18 CHA.

It certainly makes sense that SOME cults have that requirement, just like other cult-specific requirements.  But the blanket "they all must have this" like a "you must be this tall to be a Rune Lord" is silly - we're disregarding it.

Outlaw Josey Wales definitely has an 18 CHA. And many non-human species do not have Rune Lords.

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, David Scott said:

There are lots of different character types that Charisma 18 supports. However, the rune levels of the cult are the leaders, even if reluctant. Their  actions alone will increase their charisma (page 420, which implies that you can have a cha of 17 and become a rune level”. A Humakt rune lord needs charisma 18 to say follow me into battle and die by my side, it will be a glorious death. Other cults need it too, fagin is a classic high charisma crim.

Yes. Humakti Sword Lords have by necessity high CHA. CHA is not charm, it is not beauty. It is a measurement of leadership and strength of personality. It is worth re-reading the description of the characteristic on page 50.

[womble]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

...Their  actions alone will increase their charisma (page 420, which implies that you can have a cha of 17 and become a rune level).

I'd read that as asserting that every Rune Lord will have CHA 19 unless they came via being a Rune Priest/God-talker/Shaman already (and therefore had already picked up the +1 for that threshold) . You have to have (RAW) 18 to qualify and you get another on top when you become a Rune Master (Rune Priest, God-talker or Rune Lord).

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Yes. Humakti Sword Lords have by necessity high CHA. CHA is not charm, it is not beauty. It is a measurement of leadership and strength of personality. It is worth re-reading the description of the characteristic on page 50.

Which would imply that non-human races with stat rolls that can't attain 18 CHA are inherently poor leaders with weak personalities and should, indeed, be prohibited from attaining Rune Lord status. There was discussion in another thread about the "legacy" racial modifier to CHA, and how maybe the poor stat line should be better explained by a -10 bonus than simply rolling fewer dice. Maybe that's not the intent.

 

[Austin]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

And many non-human species do not have Rune Lords.

And some do have Rune Lords (according to the Bestiary) but which, RAW, are incapable of having CHA18. Best example is Tusk Riders (Bestiary 70), but which have a species max CHA 7. Broo are limited to CHA 14, and have Rune Lords of Thed; Great Trolls are limited the same way.

IMHO I'll probably just errata this to "Human Rune Lords must have a CHA of 18" and handwave races w/o sufficient species max.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Crel said:

And some do have Rune Lords (according to the Bestiary) but which, RAW, are incapable of having CHA18. Best example is Tusk Riders (Bestiary 70), but which have a species max CHA 7. Broo are limited to CHA 14, and have Rune Lords of Thed; Great Trolls are limited the same way.

IMHO I'll probably just errata this to "Human Rune Lords must have a CHA of 18" and handwave races w/o sufficient species max.

Some cults don't have that requirement (particularly some Chaos and other warped cults), but the overwhelming majority do.

[Richard S.]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Some cults don't have that requirement (particularly some Chaos and other warped cults), but the overwhelming majority do.

Will that be clarified in the GoG or a later book? It's not a huge problem, but it could confuse some people, with the core book saying it as if it applies to all cults.

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Richard S. said:

Will that be clarified in the GoG or a later book? It's not a huge problem, but it could confuse some people, with the core book saying it as if it applies to all cults.

Specific cults have specific rules. If a cult is not subject to the 18 CHA requirement for Rune Lords, it will say it in the long write up. 

Given that there are no player character Thed Rune Lords (or at least there better not be), I really wouldn't worry about this much.

[Zit]

what about allowing a CHA of 3d6 for any (or almost) creature and apply the -10 when dealing with other species ? The Troll Rune Lord would lead his fellow trolls to the death, and even the Tusk Rider leader, but not humans (may be with an exception for members of the same cult). It makes more sense. It seems that CHA in the rules is sometimes evaluated from the human point of view, sometimes not.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Zit said:

what about allowing a CHA of 3d6 for any (or almost) creature and apply the -10 when dealing with other species ? The Troll Rune Lord would lead his fellow trolls to the death, and even the Tusk Rider leader, but not humans (may be with an exception for members of the same cult). It makes more sense. It seems that CHA in the rules is sometimes evaluated from the human point of view, sometimes not.

Some creatures simply can't ever pull it off. Trollkin, newtlings, crested dragonewts, etc. They won't ever be a Rune Lord in any cult except maybe a Chaos cult of something disgusting and revolting.

[Richard S.]

12 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Specific cults have specific rules. If a cult is not subject to the 18 CHA requirement for Rune Lords, it will say it in the long write up. 

Given that there are no player character Thed Rune Lords (or at least there better not be), I really wouldn't worry about this much.

Alright, exceptions will be noted in the cults themselves, that's good.

And I see you've never run into some of the crazy groups that I have.

[davecake]

I understand that CHA means leadership not charm. 

But it is a change. Formerly, some Swords of Humakts were leaders - and some were duelists, and some were champions supported by patrons, with no great need to get others to follow them. Given that they are generally "cold, fatalistic, merciless, and taciturn", it seems safe to assume that at least some of them were not overly charismatic. 

 

[Jeff]

Just now, Richard S. said:

Alright, exceptions will be noted in the cults themselves, that's good.

And I see you've never run into some of the crazy groups that I have.

Thed and the Bloody Tusk are NOT NOT NOT intended for players. Frankly, I'd be inclined to kick any player who wanted to play a Thed cultist in an ongoing campaign out of my gaming group for obvious reasons. 

[Richard S.]

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Thed and the Bloody Tusk are NOT NOT NOT intended for players. Frankly, I'd be inclined to kick any player who wanted to play a Thed cultist in an ongoing campaign out of my gaming group for obvious reasons. 

I get that, I was just commenting that there are groups who will sometimes pull stuff like an all-chaos campaign, or have a secret chaos cultist in the party, or something. It's just like how D&D players have always wanted to play monsters, only it's far easier to do with RQ.

Edit: I'm not encouraging playing a completely messed-up cult like Thed, just saying that sometimes it can be interesting to explore some of the Glorantha's dark side of your group is okay with it.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Richard S.

[PhilHibbs]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Thed and the Bloody Tusk are NOT NOT NOT intended for players. Frankly, I'd be inclined to kick any player who wanted to play a Thed cultist in an ongoing campaign out of my gaming group for obvious reasons. 

Yeah, that's a tough one to approach in a sensitive way! The more reasonable example is Great Troll Death Lord. Playable race, playable cult, should be possible, but seems not to be (unless the long writeup in Gods overrides the CHA requirement). Should be in the short writeup, really.

[Humakt]

That make wonder, we need gods of Glorantha soon!

[Austin]

47 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Given that there are no player character Thed Rune Lords (or at least there better not be), I really wouldn't worry about this much.

 

31 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Thed and the Bloody Tusk are NOT NOT NOT intended for players. Frankly, I'd be inclined to kick any player who wanted to play a Thed cultist in an ongoing campaign out of my

gaming group for obvious reasons. 

 

29 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I get that, I was just commenting that there are groups who will sometimes pull stuff like an all-chaos campaign, or have a secret chaos cultist in the party, or something. It's just like how D&D players have always wanted to play monsters, only it's far easier to do with RQ.

Echoing Richard, I think literally every playgroup I've been in which lasted more than one session dabbled in Evil one-offs, or brief campaigns. And I'm pretty sure a few of those characters were drifting towards the depravities of Thed, to be perfectly honest. (Not recommending that degree of game.) It's sort of a blowing-off-steam thing.

I feel like it's 100% fair to not plan a game for playing broo (especially Thed), but that is something that players absolutely are going to do, and something that playgroups are definitely going to experiment with. Though I suppose you could go digging into RQ3 if you wanted, for that. I seem to remember the Gods box having rules for humans becoming broo or something.

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Crel said:

... I feel like it's 100% fair to not plan a game for playing broo (especially Thed), but that is something that players absolutely are going to do, and something that playgroups are definitely going to experiment with...

Those groups can HR it how they want.

Chaosium doesn't need to write, or publish, rules for that.  I would suggest that it would be a relatively dire mistake to do so, in fact; even in the Bestiary or GM book as "rules for NPCs."

 

[Zozotroll]

In general I like my badguys to conform to the rules..  For major badguys sometimes I do a full PC write up on them.  Kind of sad I will have to cheat to get some obvious badguys into the game