The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, Leingod said:

Slim, but at least one of the "Kestaytelli" clans definitely has some of Vingkot's blood among their number, given Redalda.

Redalda is a "Daughter of Vingot", a title given to three powerful Ram priestesses. Naturally this title comes because they are claimed to have Vingkot's bloodline, because... they are powerful! As a Rider you don't necessarily buy this, or care whether it's literally true or mythologically true, but it's likely worth patronising them.

[Sir_Godspeed]

I never got the impression that being a Vingkotling meant that you literally were a descendant of Vingkot. On the one hand the Vingkotling were a specific clan and dynasty, yes, but on a wider scale it was a reference to a tribal confederation/polity/empire which the eponymous Vingkotlings ruled, a bit like "Ming China", as it were.

Most Vingkotlings (in the political/ethnic sense) probably had no direct blood-relation to Vingkot, them being descendants of Heler, Durev, and other conquered or assimilated peoples.

Sorry if I misunderstood the debate, but I felt it was taking a bit of a overly narrow turn.

[Leingod]

11 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Redalda is a "Daughter of Vingot", a title given to three powerful Ram priestesses. Naturally this title comes because they are claimed to have Vingkot's bloodline, because... they are powerful! As a Rider you don't necessarily buy this, or care whether it's literally true or mythologically true, but it's likely worth patronising them.

Actually, in-game your clan members assume that "Daughter of Vingkot" just means that they're distant descendants of Vingkot. And in fact, Redalda herself is just the daughter of one of the "daughters."

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Word spreads through the valley that three priestesses of the <Ram> clan have been manifesting immense divine power. The Rams claim these sisters, widely separated in age, as daughters of Vingkot. This probably means that they are descended from their people’s founding god, Vingkot, though with several generations between them and that demigod.

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"A delegation of priestesses from the <Ram> clan come to solicit gifts celebrating the birth of a baby girl. They say she is special because she was born to the youngest of the Three Sisters, priestesses descended from Vingkot, founder of their people, and thus also from Orlanth, their sun-slaying god. Our people considered this an odd presumption on the part of the Rams, who were foreigners and often our foes. But they did give us two of their shaggy cows, gaining hospitality from our patrols."

Which is essentially the same thing as Beren:

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Many portents attend a recent birth. Henmul and Nerya, of the <family> bloodline, have given birth to their first child. The sky smiled on the moment of his birth: Zarlen the Wandering Star circled Elmal the Guardian as he reached his celestial apex. A white calf and a black goat kid were born the next moment, minutes apart. The child is the first male born to the <family> in some time. They claim that their main male line, including Henmul, descend from Verlaro, son of your primary god, Elmal. The family asks that the clan recognize the auspiciousness of this new arrival, who they have named Beren."

And yeah, what your clan assumes isn't necessarily closer to the truth, but my own thought on it is that if a few of them are claiming actual, direct descent from Vingkot we can give them the benefit of the doubt unless there's a good reason to believe otherwise. I mean, we don't actually even really know much about the Rams who move into the valley and where they're from or any of that; all we really know is that they apparently consider Durev obscure and that the Infithtelli hate them and call them enemies.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I never got the impression that being a Vingkotling meant that you literally were a descendant of Vingkot. On the one hand the Vingkotling were a specific clan and dynasty, yes, but on a wider scale it was a reference to a tribal confederation/polity/empire which the eponymous Vingkotlings ruled, a bit like "Ming China", as it were.

I'd subscribe to that. However, all known original Vingkotling tribes were founded by one person out of the ruling couple with a direct descent from Vingkot. The Stravuli are an exception for their founders to lack this direct descent, and they are late-comers, possibly from a time when the Vingkotlings weren't really Vingkotlings any more (as proved by the special magic of Zzabur dissipating uselessly, told in Book of Heortling Mythology).

Quote

Most Vingkotlings (in the political/ethnic sense) probably had no direct blood-relation to Vingkot, them being descendants of Heler, Durev, and other conquered or assimilated peoples.

Yes. Even the members of the tribes founded by descendants of Vingkot only have a chance at having the equivalent of Cohanim ancestry, and in no way a certainty thereof.

Then there were tribes under Vingkotling rule which weren't Vingkotlings. The Helerings are the prime example, the Durevings are a bit trickier, since many of them became founding members of the 9 Vingkotling tribes of Vingkot's children. Others apparently remained independent. Before the Flood, the Durevings inhabited all of Ernaldela and Kerofinela. The Flood conquered much of Ernaldela, with only Kethaela, Kerofinela and Saird remaining dry (between the two bulges of water that overlaid the Rockwood Mountains, parts of Maniria and parts of Prax).

The Sylilings remained a tribe apart. Other weird folk from Saird probably did, too, like the Nogatendings with their boat birds on Black Eel River. The Harandings appear to have split off a tribe founded by Drorgalar, a mortal/demigod son of Orlanth from east of Kethaela. It isn't quite clear whether Harand married the pig worship into his splinter tribe with Urgkronika, who could have been from an Entruli tribe. Harand's father was a heroic founder who married a daughter of King Drorgalar, similar to the origin stories of the four original Vingkotling Star Tribes.

Little is known about the history of Sairdite Orlanthi from outside of the original Star Tribes. We know of one extra splinter group from the Jorganostelli, the Deleskaring people of Arrowstead. Otherwise, I find it suspicious that the surviving tribes count six of the original nine Vingkotling tribes, and only one of Vingkot's sons' tribes, the rest only daughters' tribes. Living closer to Alkoth may have been the cause for the demise of many a Sairdite Star Tribe, though.

I do think that none of the newer tribes should have a name ending on -tes or -telli - these were used only for the 3 summer and 5 winter tribes founded by children of Vingkot, with Kodig's royal tribe still having another ending (-vari). All other tribes with a Vingkotling root ended up being called -vuli (including the Esrolvuli). The Deleskarings may never have been more than a clan (and would be the only evidence of a clan in Vingkotling times that I can name).

[Sheliak]

Unrelated to Vingkot and his descendants, but looking at the Scouring Wind spirit (description: "Helps fight Chaos"), I have to wonder if it's related to Urox somehow... 

Can you get god-related spirits? (This is one of the points where my Glorantha knowledge gets extremely vague.)

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Sheliak said:

Unrelated to Vingkot and his descendants, but looking at the Scouring Wind spirit (description: "Helps fight Chaos"), I have to wonder if it's related to Urox somehow... 

Can you get god-related spirits? (This is one of the points where my Glorantha knowledge gets extremely vague.)

To my knowledge, yes. Kolat was basically a spirit (he might still be one, I don't know what runes he's given in the games) and had to choose between his god-kin and spirit-kin. Then there are Kolat's bound spirits (breaths) which according to the book of Heortling Mythology are grandchildren of Umath, who apparently spontaneously spawned a goddess in his wake who in turn spawned them.

Yinkin might also count. Even though he's a deity for all I know, he is related to the whole Hykimi-complex wich can appear as both deities and spirits depending on how their worshippers approach them (the same is arguably true for deities as well, given how Praxian and Doraddi mythologies work).

 

[Leingod]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yinkin might also count. Even though he's a deity for all I know, he is related to the whole Hykimi-complex wich can appear as both deities and spirits depending on how their worshippers approach them (the same is arguably true for deities as well, given how Praxian and Doraddi mythologies work).

Odayla is probably an even better example of that than Yinkin. And of course there's the fact that Raven is often believed to be a mask/guise/form/whatever of Eurmal/Trickster, but at least recognizably acts very much like a spirit in-game.

[alakoring]

On 10/10/2019 at 6:37 PM, Sheliak said:

Riders all consider themselves descendants of Hyalor, and your clan all consider themselves as descendants of Basikan (and maybe also Zenangar), which is probably just as mathematically dubious.

What, you don’t consider “fictive kinship” to have validity?

[JanPospisil]

The game is out! 

Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/881420/Six_Ages_Ride_Like_the_Wind/

GoG: https://gog.com/game/six_ages_ride_like_the_wind

(the GoG link is currently not working, GoG takes a while to update from "coming soon" page to "released" page)

[DerKrieger]

1 hour ago, JanPospisil said:

The game is out! 

Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/881420/Six_Ages_Ride_Like_the_Wind/

GoG: https://gog.com/game/six_ages_ride_like_the_wind

(the GoG link is currently not working, GoG takes a while to update from "coming soon" page to "released" page)

I'm excited to get a chance to play it but why is the Windows version $20 when the iOS version is $10?

[JanPospisil]

Mobile games have always been cheaper, I guess. (it's a matter of perspective, I think. It's not that the PC version is more expensive than it should be, it's that the mobile was undervalued so it would sell in the mobile market.)

(this is just me guessing.)

(also for me it shows 17.79 USD on GoG. Might be regional pricing?)

Edited October 17, 2019 by JanPospisil

[JonL]

I think the Spirit/God distinction being in the eye of the beholder applies to just about all of them. Exceptions might be abstract or just out-there entities Iike the Invisible God or Kajabor. The polymorphism is explicitly manifest in places like Pent and Prax, and the Guide even specifically calls out West King Wind as Orlanth. On the other end of the spectrum you've got the Aoleans sacrificing baked goods to the Lightbringers  instead of animals - and the magic still works.

The Other Side responds in reflection of how you approach it.  That same principle underlies the Theyalan missionaries exporting their Dawn paradigm beyond Kierofinela & Kethela, Hrestolism & Seshna intertwinement in early Seshnela,  the Bright Empire's God-hacking and Pelorian/Theyalan syncreticism, the experimental/transformative heroquesting pioneered by Harmast, Kralori dream worlds, the God Learners' shenanigans, and the development of heterodox practices like Orlanth Dragonfriend, Arkati sects, Carmanian practices, Henotheism, the Chariot of Lightning, and of course the Lunar Way.

The distinction only ever seems clear-cut when playing RuneQuest and having to decide which stats or rules to apply. The in-fiction entities are less concerned with mechanical boxes.

Edited October 17, 2019 by JonL

[DerKrieger]

1 hour ago, JanPospisil said:

Mobile games have always been cheaper, I guess. (it's a matter of perspective, I think. It's not that the PC version is more expensive than it should be, it's that the mobile was undervalued so it would sell in the mobile market.)

(this is just me guessing.)

(also for me it shows 17.79 USD on GoG. Might be regional pricing?)

Undervalued as the mobile port may be it isn't exactly fair to tell some of your customers to pay more for no reason other than because you think they will. It isn't a regional issue either but simply because they believe PC users will spend more on a game than mobile users will so hey why not charge more.  I waited an extra year and a half to get the game and now I finally can for the privilege of twice the price for waiting. Not with any additional content mind you, merely an increase in price.

Also it appears as $19.99 for me on GoG, might be regional pricing for you then? Would depend on your local currency I'd think.

[Sheliak]

I got some new information re: the downfall of Nameforgot! One of my advisors said, "Nameforgot decided that ravens were not to be trusted, and gave orders to slay them on sight. That is when he lost his name, and then everything else." So it sounds to me like he managed to antagonize Raven. 

This event is pretty interesting in general: https://sixages.fandom.com/wiki/Raven's_Cruel_Justice

(Also, I just got it today after playing for a year and a half. Still new things to be found...) 

In this case, the clan in question had just exiled their Raven shaman. I wonder if doing that yourself has similar repercussions for your clan? (I think that's an option in some circumstances; not positive, though.) It looks like non-Rider clans can anger Raven in different ways, though. 

[JanPospisil]

Could also be Raven taking credit for something that happened on its own. :))

[Leingod]

Cool. I wonder if that plays into the Yanadlings' decision to abandon the worship of gods for spirits? Them being survivors of the North Clan and all.

[Sheliak]

Something I just noticed--in the illustration for Zarlen's First Wander, his pursuer (who I think is either Gagarth or his father Vadrus) has dogs. Atypical for a Ram god, but then again, Orlanthi don't tend to like Gagarth anyway, and Vadrus (and his dog-keeping ways if he has them) won't outlast the darkness ahead...  

https://sixages.fandom.com/wiki/File:ZarlensWander.png

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Sheliak said:

Something I just noticed--in the illustration for Zarlen's First Wander, his pursuer (who I think is either Gagarth or his father Vadrus) has dogs. Atypical for a Ram god, but then again, Orlanthi don't tend to like Gagarth anyway, and Vadrus (and his dog-keeping ways if he has them) won't outlast the darkness ahead...  

https://sixages.fandom.com/wiki/File:ZarlensWander.png

The only son of Umath with a special relation to alynxes is Orlanth (who also has lions among the Solanthi and bears via Odayla). Humakt is associated with wolves. Storm Bull has no carnivore association at all, but his Praxians enjoy the company of Brother Dog.

Vadrus is possibly the least pastoral of the brothers. (Ok, Humakt has no herd beast mentoned at all...) The Wild Hunt (at least in real world myths) traditionally has hounds.

 

[Leingod]

On 12/5/2019 at 5:19 PM, Sheliak said:

Something I just noticed--in the illustration for Zarlen's First Wander, his pursuer (who I think is either Gagarth or his father Vadrus) has dogs. Atypical for a Ram god, but then again, Orlanthi don't tend to like Gagarth anyway, and Vadrus (and his dog-keeping ways if he has them) won't outlast the darkness ahead...  

https://sixages.fandom.com/wiki/File:ZarlensWander.png

They're probably Gagarth's. In addition to his Wild Hunt already being known to have hounds in it, Gagarth (called "Chase-Everything" in the myth) is stated to have "sent ravening beasts to nip at Wandering Star's hooves."

[Leingod]

I've been thinking lately on some stuff regarding Hyalor and Yamsur that I felt like getting off my chest by resurrecting this thread.

Yamsur is typically known to us as the dead sun god of Genert's Garden, though in Six Ages it's actually noted that he's a wanderer who often went far afield, including to Nivorah, where he fathered Hyalor, though your clan actually doesn't know this and needs to discover it via Heroquest. Yamsur is presented by the Hyalorings as a feckless wanderer and a fair-weather friend, too flighty and inconstant to rely on. His son, Hyalor, is called among other things “Change-Maker,” and indeed all his most notable acts are acts of Change. He “saved Gamari by changing the rules that governed her existence,” and he “refashioned us [Riders] twice: when he saved Gamari and when he helped us flee Nivorah.” He always embraced both change and freedom, and his greatest gift was to teach people to Ride Like the Wind.

Hyalor himself never admitted to being a god or demigod, even though your clan tells that when Samnal denied his divine blood Hyalor “held his tongue for the good of the city,” implying he did know that he wasn't fully human. Did he know Yamsur was his father, and if so, why did he never tell anyone? Would it have somehow been more problematic than his parentage being unknown (which was surely no small thing in a society as stratified and hierarchical as a Dara Happan city)? Did he resent Yamsur and not want to acknowledge him as his father?

If so, this also adds a new dimension to the reasons for Hyalor's soothing and saving of Gamari: He would know better than anyone else the pain of being abandoned and let down by Splendid Yamsur, wouldn't he? And then there's this line in Gamari's Heroquest: “If she wanted a loyal sun to follow, Hyalor told her, she would find it not in Yamsur, but in his patron, Elmal.”

Did Yamsur know about Hyalor's parentage? Gamari does, as it's from her you learn this fact, so you'd imagine that Yamsur would also know; did he not care? Did Elmal know? Whether he knew Yamsur was his father or not, Hyalor seems to be making clear here which of the two he considers worthy of their respect. Maybe Elmal, ever dutiful, took care of his nephew when his flighty brother couldn't or wouldn't do so. Heck, maybe Hyalor's rivalry with Samnal came about partly as a result of that? Samnal is always described as proud and haughty; I'm sure he wouldn't have taken kindly to this human bastard of unknown parentage that he was expected to treat like family. Are the Wheels so strident in denying Hyalor's divinity even long after his ascension due to Samnal's fear that he's Elmal's son?

Regardless of the exact circumstances, it seems clear to me that Hyalor's great power and affinity for Change(/Freedom/Motion) was at least partly something he inherited from Yamsur, but that he proved a far more loyal and faithful sort than his father, whether or not Elmal's example or instruction had something to do with it.

(Now I'm imagining that scene at the end of that one episode of The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air with Will's dad, but with Will and Uncle Phil as Hyalor and Elmal)

Edited April 18, 2020 by Leingod

[Leingod]

Coming back again to share stuff I figured out, whether anyone cares or not and even though a lot of you probably already figured at least some of this out.

To start with, I'll note that much earlier in this thread I speculated that Dostal and Inilla are the gods later known in Heortling myth as Siwend and Indeg; honestly, the latter works much better than the former for this, as there's more resemblance in the name and not just their role. Plus there's the fact that baskets of berries are often mentioned whenever Inilla comes up, and Indeg is known to us solely because her Thorn Basket (which always had a handful of dried berries inside) was one of the Ten Vingkotling Treasures.

But then I reread King of Sartar a while back and realized that Dostal is obviously the god worshiped as Dastal by the Grazers (whether the Pentans still know of him in the Third Age I can't really say). Not only are the names nearly identical, Dastal is not just a god of hunting, but is the god of "hunting, herding and learning" who is the patron of boys undergoing their rites of manhood. Dostal's major myth and Heroquest among the Riders is about how he uses a hunt to teach valuable life lessons to the four boys who will one day become the founders of the Four Clans.

It's also interesting to note that in the dark times after the Grazers warred with Tarsh under Yarandros Charge-Crazy, you have a string of Luminous Stallion Kings named for Dastal (who are dismissed within the work as being of little historic note, their recorded deeds just taken as a sign of how far the Grazers had fallen from their prior heights), right up until Dastaldarin Avenger takes advantage of the Tarshite civil war. After that, though, no other Luminous Stallion King ever bears Dastal's name, just as none had before. Presumably, his lessons were no longer needed in a regal context after that low point.

---

Moving away from that, another thing I finally managed to notice (and really should have earlier) thanks to other discussions where some of the artwork from this game was used, is that several of the Ram kingdoms have a very strong affiliation and association with a different kind of animal: The Infithtelli have domesticated mammoths, the Forosilvuli take sakkars (saber-toothed cats) into battle, the Vestantes do much the same with bears, and the Penentelli use their ordeed antelope to pull chariots. They also all have very different trends in dress and such, which was something I'd already noted in the past but is even more obvious now.

Anyway, the "Kestaytelli" (as the Infithtelli call the clans that have settled in the Black Eel river valley) seem to lack a unique animal association of their own, unless you count the fact that they've doubled down hard on being "Rams," as exemplified by the chieftain of Redalda's clan:

So I suppose it was only natural that they would join up with the Hyalorings and become Horse People as the Berennethtelli.

(Also, two things to note: Some of those priestesses in that picture are actually the same ones who are going around collecting blessings after Redalda's birth and have visibly aged, which is a lovely detail. Second, can anyone identify that modified Air Rune being worn on the necklace? I know I've seen it before, but I can't quite place it)

Edited June 10, 2020 by Leingod

[Tindalos]

4 minutes ago, Leingod said:

But then I reread King of Sartar a while back and realized that Dostal is obviously the god worshiped as Dastal by the Grazers (whether the Pentans still know of him in the Third Age I can't really say). Not only are the names nearly identical, Dastal is not just a god of hunting, but is the god of "hunting, herding and learning" who is the patron of boys undergoing their rites of manhood. Dostal's major myth and Heroquest among the Riders is about how he uses a hunt to teach valuable life lessons to the four boys who will one day become the founders of the Four Clans.

Given the connection between Dastal and Yelm the Youth, it wouldn't surprise me if some form of his knowledge is still found in Pent, given they still follow the age based social structure found with the Grazelanders gifted to them by Kargzant.

It's applicability may be in question, but the old Cult Compendium did list Foundchild as the hunting god of Pent, so it's possible they might be a cultural name as well.

5 minutes ago, Leingod said:

(Also, two things to note: Some of those priestesses in that picture are actually the same ones who are going around collecting blessings after Redalda's birth and have visibly aged, which is a lovely detail. Second, can anyone identify that modified Air Rune being worn on the necklace? I know I've seen it before, but I can't quite place it)

As might not surprise you, it's a rune to signify Vingkot. (My guess is the spines around it indicate a shared connection to the the mastery rune, and the royal/divine bloodline.)

 

And it's good to see you at this again, and I'm certainly interested in it.

[Sheliak]

The Vingkot rune is also what Redalda has on her cheeks! Which makes a lot more sense than the Air rune, which is what I originally thought she had.  (And that she has that on her skin at her age is a nice visual signifier of what a big deal she is to her clan.) I think her tattooed choker is a combination of Earth and probably Life runes, and she's got a bit of a ram horn motif on her circlet. 

I had been assuming that Dostal was one of the gods who died and stayed dead, so I'm happy to hear that he's still around in the Grazers' pantheon!

[Runeblogger]

54 minutes ago, Leingod said:

Moving away from that, another thing I finally managed to notice (and really should have earlier) thanks to other discussions where some of the artwork from this game was used, is that several of the Ram kingdoms have a very strong affiliation and association with a different kind of animal: The Infithtelli have domesticated mammoths, the Forosilvuli take sakkars (saber-toothed cats) into battle, the Vestantes do much the same with bears, and the Penentelli use their ordeed antelope to pull chariots. They also all have very different trends in dress and such, which was something I'd already noted in the past but is even more obvious now.

Perhaps they started as hsunchen way back in the God time.

The sakkars and the mammoths remind me of the Issaries heroquest in King of Dragon Pass. Maybe these animals in that myth were at some point these early Orlanthi tribes.

[Leingod]

23 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

As might not surprise you, it's a rune to signify Vingkot. (My guess is the spines around it indicate a shared connection to the the mastery rune, and the royal/divine bloodline.)

 

And it's good to see you at this again, and I'm certainly interested in it.

Ah, so it is. Maybe that's Redalda's mother, then? She kind of looks like her, but the hair and tattoos are different and she looks a bit older, so that would make sense.

And thank you!

5 minutes ago, Sheliak said:

I had been assuming that Dostal was one of the gods who died and stayed dead, so I'm happy to hear that he's still around in the Grazers' pantheon!

I really hope the next games give us some clue as to what ends up happening to Cenala, since she's never been mentioned anywhere else as far as I can tell.

4 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

Perhaps they started as hsunchen way back in the God time.

The sakkars and the mammoths remind me of the Issaries heroquest in King of Dragon Pass. Maybe these animals in that myth were at some point these early Orlanthi tribes.

Maybe. Though now that I'm thinking about it, I'm actually starting to suspect that perhaps at least some of the other Vingkotling tribes actually followed much the same pattern as the future Berennethtelli do in this game: the son/daughter of Vingkot marries a foreigner who brings a new animal into the new tribe that becomes a key part of their way of life. After all, as given above, the Vestantes fight alongside bears (specifically you see a brown bear), and the foreign husband of Vestene was Goralf Brown. And while the Forosilvuli are a bit odd in that they're a Star Tribe, there's definitely something fitting in the epithet of Forosil Ferocious for a tribe whose associated animal is so aggressive that they're shown with two handlers holding them back from attacking you immediately, so I think there's something there, Star Captain or no.

Though admittedly there isn't much I can see in the names "Porscriptor the Cannibal" or "Kastwall Five" that would indicate mammoths or antelope, respectively, but still.