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Jeff

Notes on the Many Suns and the Sun Gods of Prax

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25 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

Can you provide a quote in which he changes his mind on this? Because I don't think he did, so I am afraid you need some evidence to back your argument that post-2007 he declared that Elmal and Yelmalio were the same god. Otherwise, it's just your opinion.

Before King of Sartar they were treated as different gods, King of Sartar definitely said they were the same god and i can remember some backtracking on the whole concept.

It is not an academic debate, but a discussion over opinions and remembering previous conversations over 30-odd years. Having to justify every comment with footnotes and references is just plain mad.

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2 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Before King of Sartar they were treated as different gods, King of Sartar definitely said they were the same god and i can remember some backtracking on the whole concept.

King of Sartar does not say that Yelmalio and Elmal are the same god. It says the opposite.

The reason for asking for quotes is that people are making bold statements, such as Yelmalio is Elmal and we need to see some textual evidence for that. It is not the understanding of the last 25 years for many.

King of Sartar has Yelmalio as the solution to the conflict between the Elmal cult and a resurgent cult of Yelm. Why was Yelm resurgent in this period? Because Yelmgatha returned the cult to prominence by becoming Emperor of Dara Happa by passing the Ten Tests. He was a Lunar heroquester and a revived Yelm cult began spreading after years in which it was 'underground' (Golden Dragon of EWF era and Carmanian Empire replacement with Idovanus). The vision of Many Suns is a re-discovery of the Nyslorian perspective of the Bright Empire which says there can be many sun gods, not just one. See the other thread for the evidence from GRoY, FS, and KoS for that.

I appreciate that this debate is becoming academic, but otherwise how do we discuss the actual situation as we have previously had it presented?

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1 minute ago, Ian Cooper said:

He was a Lunar heroquester and a revived Yelm cult began spreading after years in which it was 'underground' (Golden Dragon of EWF era and Carmanian Empire replacement with Idovanus)

Was he now? Interesting. I always saw him as one of the Back to Basics Yelm worshippers, who became Emperor to bring back those core Yelm values that had been lost/suppressed. I also saw him as accepting the Red Emperor as his heir due to recognising the power and rightfulness of the Red Goddess.

Having him as a Lunar HeroQuestor is something I had never considered. I had thought that the Red Emperor had HeroQuested to be accepted by Yelmgatha as his heir, but not that Yelmgatha himself took the Ten Tests so that he could legitimise the Red Emperor as his heir. 

Hmmm ...

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25 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

Thanks, this summary helps a lot. The RQG vision of Elmal seems irreconcilable with the vision from Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes where he is clearly described as being the sun and with the Glorantha Sourcebook where he is associated with the Sun Disk. Everything here is telling us that Elmal and Yelmalio are different gods.

Until now I was trying to reconcile Elmal with Yelmalio whereas Elmal could rather need to be reconciled with Yelm. That is an interesting point of view I had missed and it is certainly at the origin of my confusion.

May be am I wrong but I am sure I have read somewhere that Greg would have replied that considering Elmal and Yelmalio as different gods or as the same god was both true. This add to the confusion as far as I am concerned but could well be the key to grasping this cult.¬†¬† ūüė£

I wrote both of those sections and not only are they not incompatible with what I have written in RQG, but I wrote them with the goal of getting to this point. Greg and I talked at length about the treatment of Yelmalio in RuneQuest and I know he was fine with it. :D

For the purposes of RuneQuest, Elmal can (and will) be treated as a local variant of Yelmalio. Same thing with the elf variant of Yelmalio and the Pentan variant of Yelmalio. A worshiper of Elmal can go to a Sun Dome Temple and contact his god (i.e., replenish his Rune Points). A worshiper of Yelmalio can go to the temple at Runegate and contact his god (i.e. replenish his Rune Points). To make things more confusing, Elmal is often a title of Yelmalio, and Yelmalio is often a title of Elmal. The Elmal variant says Yelm is the father of Elmal, but sometimes calls the Sun Disk Elmal and sometimes calls the Sun Disk Yelm. The Yelmalio cult does the same. <As an aside, the Yelm cult never calls the Sun Disk Elmal or Yelmalio and can draw much more substantive powers from the Fiery Sun than any of the Yelmalio variants (who only get Sunspear through the Yelm cult).>

That's the similarities. There are some magical differences between the variants. The Yelmalio cult takes on all sorts of strange geases to get gifts from the god, the Elmal does not. Elmal is associated with Orlanth and not with Yelm. Yelmalio is associated with Yelm and not Orlanth. 

In play I don't think it doesn't make much difference. If someone from Sartar wants to play a solar worshiper they can. Their choice is basically establishmentarian (Elmal) or dissenter (Yelmalio). Mechanically the only differences are associate cults (Yelm or Orlanth) that the Yelmalio worshiper gets gifts and geases and fights with pike and shield, and the Elmal worshiper does not. Socially the Elmal character can insist that the Yelmalio worshiper is "doing it wrong" or "taking it too far", and the Yelmalio character can insist that the Elmal worshiper "values tradition over the gods" or "values tribe over the truth" - but as far as the rules are concerned, they are worshiping variations of the same god. Same thing happens when an Tolat worshiper from Melib comes to Alkoth and meets the Shargash cult (Tolat and Shargash are presented as variations of the same god).

 

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33 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 Same thing happens when an Tolat worshiper from Melib comes to Alkoth and meets the Shargash cult (Tolat and Shargash are presented as variations of the same god).

I don't suppose it would be possible to ask what gods are listed as variations in Gods of Glorantha?

I realise it's still a work in progress and probably a big request, but it's worth a shot.

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35 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

I don't suppose it would be possible to ask what gods are listed as variations in Gods of Glorantha?

I realise it's still a work in progress and probably a big request, but it's worth a shot.

I currently have full writeups of:

  • Kyger Litor
  • Annilla
  • Argan Argar
  • Gorakiki
  • Xiola Umbar
  • Zorak Zoran
  • Magasta
  • Dormal
  • Engizi
  • Oslira
  • Choralinthor
  • Ernalda
  • Aldrya
  • Asrelia
  • Babeester Gor
  • Donandar
  • Eiritha
  • Flamal
  • Grain Goddesses
  • Hykim & Mikyh
  • Maran Gor
  • Mostal
  • Ty Kora Tek
  • Uleria
  • Yelm
  • Dayzatar
  • Dendara
  • Gorgorma
  • Lodril
  • Lokarnos
  • Lowfires
  • Polaris
  • Shargash
  • Yelmalio
  • Orlanth¬†
  • Chalana Arroy
  • Eurmal
  • Issaries
  • Lhankor Mhy
  • Daka Fal
  • Foundchild
  • Heler
  • Humakt
  • Mastakos
  • Odayla
  • Storm Bull
  • Valind
  • Waha
  • Yinkin
  • Seven Mothers
  • Danfive Xaron
  • Deezola
  • Irrippi Ontor
  • Jakaleel the Witch
  • Yanafal Tarnils
  • Etyries
  • Hon-eel
  • Nysalor
  • Red Goddess
  • Primal Chaos
  • Bagog
  • Cacodemon
  • Crimson Bat
  • Krarsht
  • Mallia
  • Thanatar
  • Thed
  • Vivamort

Not all of these will appear in the book (in fact I am certain the Chaos Gods will appear in a separate GM-facing book), but they all exist in complete form. What is missing is:

  • The Invisible God (needs a separate treatment, as it also requires the full sorcery treatment)
  • Pamalt (needs a separate treatment)
  • Lesser troll gods (will appear in Trollpak)
  • Pavis, Flintnail, Lanbril, Yelorna, Zola Fel (will appear in Big Rubble)

 

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5 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Is that all?¬†ūüôā

Probably not. I keep adding a few whenever I realise I need to understand that myth cycle. These are Cults of Prax style write-ups, not RQ3 GoG.

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Every widespread cult has local variations. Yelm has Yelm of Dara Happa v. Yelm of the Pure Horse People. Orlanth has Adventurous, Thunderous, and Rex. Ernalda and the Grain Goddesses have zillions of local variations. Lodril has many local variations. Shargash is a local variant of Tolat that is so important that it has overwhelmed the more broadly known cult. 

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6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Every widespread cult has local variations. Yelm has Yelm of Dara Happa v. Yelm of the Pure Horse People. Orlanth has Adventurous, Thunderous, and Rex. Ernalda and the Grain Goddesses have zillions of local variations. Lodril has many local variations. Shargash is a local variant of Tolat that is so important that it has overwhelmed the more broadly known cult. 

I would love to see some of those in print. Maybe having the standard cult writeup in Gods of Glorantha, or one of the followups, then have local variations in Region supplements. So, have a writeup of Dara Happan Yelm in a Dara Happan supplement, to be compared with the current Pentian-style Yelm. 

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4 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I would love to see some of those in print. Maybe having the standard cult writeup in Gods of Glorantha, or one of the followups, then have local variations in Region supplements. So, have a writeup of Dara Happan Yelm in a Dara Happan supplement, to be compared with the current Pentian-style Yelm. 

The version of Yelm presented in Gods and Goddesses is the Dara Happan version. With notes about Pent and elsewhere.

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On 1/12/2019 at 3:34 PM, Ian Cooper said:

RQ tended towards hard polytheism, but starting in the 90s Greg's writings favored soft polytheism and things like KoDP and HQG reflected that.

This certainly explains why I was at a loss when I read Hero Wars and HeroQuest 1. Coming from RuneQuest I had the feeling it was another setting at the time and did not understand this 'new' Glorantha.¬†¬† ūüôÉ

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I currently have full writeups of:

<Snip>

Ooh, this is very handy to have, thank you!

Although I must confess I was more meaning what cults got things like Kargzant and Elmal, where they're listed as regional variations with notes like that. Sorry for the confusion!

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1 minute ago, Tindalos said:

Ooh, this is very handy to have, thank you!

Although I must confess I was more meaning what cults got things like Kargzant and Elmal, where they're listed as regional variations with notes like that. Sorry for the confusion!

Kargzant and Elmal are described in Yelmalio.

Tolat is described in Shargash.

YU-Kargzant is described in Yelm.

Veskarthan is described in Lodril.

And probably plenty of others I have forgotten.

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Will there be anything covering Gustbran or other smith deities? It would be a useful bit of background information for a bronze age setting, and for Crafter occupations.

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3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Not all of these will appear in the book (in fact I am certain the Chaos Gods will appear in a separate GM-facing book), but they all exist in complete form. What is missing is:

  • The Invisible God (needs a separate treatment, as it also requires the full sorcery treatment)
  • Pamalt (needs a separate treatment)
  • Lesser troll gods (will appear in Trollpak)
  • Pavis, Flintnail, Lanbril, Yelorna, Zola Fel (will appear in Big Rubble)

 

How long until we get the IG and sorcery? In assuming it's pretty far down the road but since I'm playing with an atheist sorcerer in the party it would be helpful.

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4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:
6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Do we really know that Lightfore is a different god?

Yes, Greg was very clear that Elmal and Yelmalio are different gods. Elmal is not Lightfore, he is the Sun. KoS was very clear, that Elmal is the Sun for the Heortlings.

Ian,  I tried to offer a bridge between the various statements here.

Greg did a number of categorical statements which have since been softened up, like the "three strictly separate worlds until your activities in the Hero Wars change that" dogma which we have left behind us (without too much mourning for this dogma, I believe).

Yes, I do think that Elmal represents the Sun for the Heortlings - the ripening sun disk of the day, and the heroic survivor and night guardian at night.

If I look at Six Ages (which I cannot play yet, being an Android user...) Elmal appears to be Kargzant or Reladivus, the one planetary son that leaves his post in the advance of Umath to follow the intruder and watch from behind. A direct planetary son, one of the first generation of urban orbs in Dara Happa (as tradited in the Copper Tablets without giving any contemporary names or explanations), a survivor of the impact of Umath, and around and active well into the Greater Darkness, and again long before the Dawn (and it is only Dara Happan dogma that Kargzant did not remain alive throught the Greater Darkness, if Antirius wasn't able to - even Shargash, the planetary son returning from Hell in his struggle with Umath, had to die and return from the Underworld once more, which in his case was little more than a visit in his real home).

Verithurus(a) was another planetary "son" visiting the Underworld along with Umath, getting pregnant from the Invader, and returning as the (other) red body (along with Shargash and potentially Artia) that participated in the slaying of the Emperor. That went to the Underworld again (possibly like Shargash, again) to reappear as the sky witch twins born to Black Entekos aka KataMoripi...

No such Underworld sojourns for Reladivus/Kargzant/Elmal, who nonetheless got differentiated into three very different horse and/or rider (and even charioteer) gods (associated with different sorts of horses, too, to boot), who instead wandered around. Elmal struggled with Orlanth (as you keep rightly pointing out, and reframing the conflict between Storm and Sun (but not between Rebel King and Emperor) in one of the cycles that make up Godtime.

This means that Elmal/Kargzant are of different substance than Antirius, who is the remnant of the slain Emperor and the self-dismembered Greater (and Invisible behind all those lesser orbs) Sun.

Yelmalio is the god that was introduced as Daysenerus, a portion of Antirius - possibly the Elmal/Kargzant/Reladivus portion that was contributed to the Greater Sun, mixed with the Hastatus Speargod element (one of the weapon sons of Yelm, another horizontal differentiation) that is much less pronounced with Kargzant (who is more closely associated with the Golden Bow of lost Elempur) and weaker with Elmal (whose name practically suggests some identity with Elempur, too).

There is also lost Yamsur, a vague memory without a cult but potential for lots of answers if a more complete set of memories could be accessed.

None of the cults or deities that made it into Time without some syncretism. On more than one occasion, fiery orbs in the sky ran into one another, in at least one instance absorbing one body into the other (during Umath's invasion), in at least one instance with two bodies colliding, some mixing of stuff going on, and two bodies emerging, both in different size and composition than before, and presumably the same could be said for the deities associated with those bodies.

 

This gives ample ground to claim truthfully that Elmal is the same god as Yelmalio, and that Elmal is the same sun as Yelm, and that Elmal and Yelmalio are Lightfore, as are Kargzant and Antirius and various others.

There is a good case for Lightfore having started out as Zayteneras, the planetary deity in Copper Tablet 5 that doesn't sit in the ring of the Planetary Sons, and possibly being the low emanation of Dayzatar, or yet another Lunar emanation (or whatever remains of the White Goddess preceding Brightface which the great immobile syncretic sun could not contain).

All of these statements are grounded in material published in the official channels for Glorantha, at various times, sometimes in parallel.

All of them are truths, and none of them contain anything approaching the full or only truth.

 

4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

Jeff was wrong in the past, and he was right in the past, and sometimes with the same statements. Like all of us at this level of involvement.

 

If Elmal is less present in RuneQuest publications, that may have to do with the rather negative impact the introduction of Elmal had at the time KoS appeared, and RQG having the aim of returning a good number of those die-hard RQ2 fans into the fold who were dismayed by the revelation of this new sun god when there were the perfectly usable Yelm and Yelmalio. The way Jeff is dealing with this in the RQ-centric Gods of Glorantha certainly provides a body of data that will support those folks' views while allowing for some Elmal. A RuneQuest Glorantha truth which works for both the returnees, neophytes who aren't into our "hardness of polytheism" debates, and for those of us who take everything with too much of game system reference as one of the lesser truths, regardless which of the many game systems are used.

 

4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

and not in mailing list sources

King of Sartar, p.40

Elmal fought against Orlanth in the Gods War - that was how they met, and the Gods War was already on.

Yelmalio notably resisted Orlanth when there would have been a loyal Sun thane back at Orlanth's stead (and in Orlanth's matrimonial bed).

Arkat fought himself on the Heroplane. Other gods faced themselves in different aspects, too. Kargan Tor for instance may have found himself among the Chaos invaders of the Spike when he was supposed to defend the Celestial Palace.

4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

But wait, you might say Orlanth kills the sun, so he kills Elmal!! And then goes into the underworld to recover him, surely this is problematic for the Elmali?

The story that Orlanth killed the sun may not be what the Orlanthi believed before the Bright Empire pushed this on them.

At the worst, Orlanth killed one of the many sun gods, and thereby contributed to make the world a darker place (and parts of the Underworld unbearably bright. Whether that was the strike that killed the Evil Uncle Emperor is another question. There may have been a Hill of Gold event where the solar spearman lost his life to Orlanth.

 

4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

No, the Elmali version of this myth is that Orlanth and Elmal fight and Elmal is rescued by Orlanth (I suggest that Greg had thought this through)

Orlanth is the bully with slight remorse, which made him the most eligible of the bunch of storm gods to be accepted by the Earth Queen.

The Rebel king rules over quite a bunch of former opponents who he beat in more or less fair fights and then offered a hand to get up again. Quite a few of these may have gone before Orlanth becomes part of the Sword Story, making their death less permanent, and possibly some of that lesser dying kept going on significantly into the Lesser Darkness before the Greater Darkness put an end to that.

 

4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

Structurally, and thus from a God Learner point of view, that is the same myth. Storm fights Sun, Sun and Storm suffer from conflict outcome, Storm rescues Sun, Storm and Sun reach agreement to live together. The GL can equate those two myths.

The GL sorcerer can create a pattern of runic interactions which is applicable to both of these myths. Not necessarily the only pattern of runic interaction that can be used to describe either myth, but there is an obvious sameness to be extracted in both sets of myth.

The GL heroquester still has to use one of the countless local rites to go there and do something about this recognized pattern and possibly change it or turn it into a magical boon. His conception will be different, sort of an augmented reality where his RuneQuest Sight can apply the pattern and some rote pattern-influencing techniques.

 

4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

The conflict in the First Age is over "Who is the Sun?", not "Who is Lightfore?".

You are treating Lightfore as an unrelated issue, which may be the root of your unwillingness to accept that for certain values, Elmal and Yelmalio are the same.

Complete loss of all direct fire magics for Elmal seems slightly off to me. The whole concept for the Elmal cult is a slightly different outcome of the Hill of Gold concept, a well-known accepted bypass for Yelmalio to take fire powers without breaking his cult restrictions. The Elmal cult is what you get when the entire cult participates in that outcome rather than a single quester.

 

4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

It is possible that there is a secondary spin-off where a deposed Antirius and Elmal get associated with Lightfore, but that is the error, not the identification with the sun.

Lightfore is a necessary portion of the sun. It may be its antipode, it may be the immortal portion which cannot enter the Underworld and hence reappears on the opposite end of the Sunpath when the mortal portion of Yelm enters the Underworld, it may be Yelm's Other.

And it  is one (of several possible) celestial presentations of the Lesser Sun Gods. The "orb above the ziggurat/mountain" representation is another.

 

4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

When Orlanth goes on his Lifebringer's Quest he reconciles with his enemy the Emperor. The conflict is Tyrant and Rebel, not Sun and Storm,

I agree completely. The disappearance of the sun may not even be related to Orlanth's raid on the Emperor's celestial palace. 

 

4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

but this is really for my other thread about Lifebringers and the Emperor, I just don't have time to start that.

I will be awaiting that when you find the time. This thread has brought a couple of insights to me, and I would like to see some of your questions and possible answers for that complex.

All Orlanth myths using "Yelm" are alterations of the original wording, all of them post Argentium Thri'ile, likely post Sun Stop and under the Bright Empire.

But then both the Second Council and the Bright Empire brought the Lightbringer myths to hill barbarians who had quite different local versions, e.g. in distant Fronela. (And so did Harmast Barefoot.)

 

4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

Now RQG is entitled to YGWV on this, to have a cosmology in which Elmal is Yelmalio. But it's not what Greg wrote in his background works, and he was clear about that when asked, above.

I fear you are being about as dogmatic about this as Greg was about the Three Separate Worlds, and as Jeff comes across now wearing his RuneQuest Sight lenses.

I appreciate your frank statement of how much this goes against your expectations, especially with the role you have in the publications of Glorantha, and I feel with you just as I felt with MOB when the first Elmal shocks ran against the glorious publication of Sun County early in the nineties.

 

From various in-culture points of view, both extremes are correct: Elmal is the same god as Yelmalio, and Elmal has never been the same god as Yelmalio. Where your Gloranthan persona stands in this spectrum may influence their accessibility to magics associated with either extreme. From a sufficiently remote perspective, whether as a real world scholar of the world or as a highly "enlightened" mystic (or sheer brawn "victor" of the Hill of Gold contests) you may see the branches, commonalities and differences, and highlight them as required.

 

Ralian Ehilm and the Pamaltelan and various eastern Sun Empire variants (with and without dragon actors) bring more weirdness on the table. The West is sufficiently abstract in first claiming the False God Error and then ignoring much of what ensues. The Genertelan Brithini before and at the Dawn probably less so, but still sufficiently removed to have almost as little personal involvement as an accomplished Nysalorean.

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5 hours ago, Jeff said:

In play I don't think it doesn't make much difference. If someone from Sartar wants to play a solar worshiper they can. Their choice is basically establishmentarian (Elmal) or dissenter (Yelmalio).

That's Old Sartar and Kethaela (and who knows what is going on further west south of the Rockwoods - which has not been covered in either RQG or HQG). If you play a Pelorian-descended Sartarite (Far Point, Dinacoli), Yelmalio is sort of the normal way of your Sun God. Possibly still associated with Orlanth as much as with Yelm.

 

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

Mechanically the only differences are associate cults (Yelm or Orlanth) that the Yelmalio worshiper gets gifts and geases and fights with pike and shield, and the Elmal worshiper does not. Socially the Elmal character can insist that the Yelmalio worshiper is "doing it wrong" or "taking it too far", and the Yelmalio character can insist that the Elmal worshiper "values tradition over the gods" or "values tribe over the truth" - but as far as the rules are concerned, they are worshiping variations of the same god. Same thing happens when an Tolat worshiper from Melib comes to Alkoth and meets the Shargash cult (Tolat and Shargash are presented as variations of the same god).

Where does that leave the identity of the tidal goddess with Sedenya? Do you address this? That affects e.g. the Melibians, the Fonritian blues, the Zamokil Blues, the Masloi, that place in Loskalm which has fragments of the Blue Moon, and apparently has already affected the people of God Forgot, the magics of the Moonbroth Oasis. Do we retain separate cults there?

And do you have something about the Bat Goddess, the Fourth Rebel in Jar-eel's Liberation sermon/quest?

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46 minutes ago, Joerg said:

If Elmal is less present in RuneQuest publications, that may have to do with the rather negative impact the introduction of Elmal had at the time KoS appeared, and RQG having the aim of returning a good number of those die-hard RQ2 fans into the fold who were dismayed by the revelation of this new sun god when there were the perfectly usable Yelm and Yelmalio. The way Jeff is dealing with this in the RQ-centric Gods of Glorantha certainly provides a body of data that will support those folks' views while allowing for some Elmal. A RuneQuest Glorantha truth which works for both the returnees, neophytes who aren't into our "hardness of polytheism" debates, and for those of us who take everything with too much of game system reference as one of the lesser truths, regardless which of the many game systems are used.

Also valid for RQIII fans, not only for RQII fans.

Kloster

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1 hour ago, Sumath said:

Will there be anything covering Gustbran or other smith deities? It would be a useful bit of background information for a bronze age setting, and for Crafter occupations.

If you look through Jeff's list, you will find the Lowfires.  Gustbran is one of the three Lowfires.  There are also the Ten Sons and Servants of Lodril.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Greg did a number of categorical statements which have since been softened up, like the "three strictly separate worlds until your activities in the Hero Wars change that" dogma which we have left behind us (without too much mourning for this dogma, I believe).

Yes, there were a lot of different statements from Greg, hence the term "Gregged".

I am sure that we can all pick and choose from statements made over 40 years to support various arguments. Unfortunately, as he is sadly no longer with us, we cannot ask him what he meant. I am sure that those who worked closely with him have a deeper understanding of what he meant, but we are not always in that position.

So, everyone, would it be possible not to use the "Greg said this" argument to support a case?

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Jeff was wrong in the past, and he was right in the past, and sometimes with the same statements. Like all of us at this level of involvement.

Agreed, that could be said for absolutely everyone, as our ideas about Glorantha have evolved over the years.

 

Shutting up now ...

Edited by soltakss

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2 hours ago, Sumath said:

Will there be anything covering Gustbran or other smith deities? It would be a useful bit of background information for a bronze age setting, and for Crafter occupations.

Gustbran is covered in the Lowfires.

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7 hours ago, Jeff said:

 Mechanically the only differences are associate cults (Yelm or Orlanth) that the Yelmalio worshiper gets gifts and geases and fights with pike and shield, and the Elmal worshiper does not.

I'm doubtless a heretic, but have suspected for some time that the Yelmalio cult, and the way it fights, isn't as monolithic as might be supposed.

The Sairdite/Prax/Sartar temples may specialize in fighting as phalangites (though their auxiliaries who defend the flanks of the phalanx doubtless differ) but further afield things are not exactly the same. I have a suspicion that, for example, Serene Victory in Jarst tends more to horse archers (the Pentans being neighbors and both revering the Yellow City) whilst North Dona may also employ Western-style cataphracts in league with their phalanx...

For now, the setting just needs Peloria, Dragon Pass, the Holy Country and Prax to be addressed, but it's a large world out there.

Edited by M Helsdon

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