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Notes on the Many Suns and the Sun Gods of Prax

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2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

In an attempt to square with this with the Guide's information, it's quite possible that Elmal has a similar division to Kargzant. Both a lesser form as the Little Sun, and the strengthened Full Sun. (As Yu-Kargzant for the Pure Horse people)

This form of Elmal, probably the Anatyr one, would be one providing the bloodline of kings to the Hyaloring triarty. And, if available, likely provides the contestant standing in for Yelm in the crown test as mentioned in King of Sartar (page 217)

Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant are well recognised by the Pure Horse People as different deities. Kargzant means something like "Moving Light" and "Yu" means "ruling". So there was the moving light in the Grey Age - Kargzant (aka Elmal). But then the Sun Disk reappeared at the Dawn, following in the same path as the Moving Light (but at opposite times). At first, many people thought that the Sun Disk was simply an appurtenance of the Moving Light, as they could not draw power from it. But then the Yelm Cult of Dara Happa proved that the Sun Disk was the Imperial Sun, dead since the end of the Golden Age.

 

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52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant are well recognised by the Pure Horse People as different deities. Kargzant means something like "Moving Light" and "Yu" means "ruling". So there was the moving light in the Grey Age - Kargzant (aka Elmal). But then the Sun Disk reappeared at the Dawn, following in the same path as the Moving Light (but at opposite times). At first, many people thought that the Sun Disk was simply an appurtenance of the Moving Light, as they could not draw power from it. But then the Yelm Cult of Dara Happa proved that the Sun Disk was the Imperial Sun, dead since the end of the Golden Age.

 

This inevitably draws us back to the question that I posed a while ago: when an Orlanthi looks up at the sun disk overhead, does he identify it with Elmal, or the (Bad Emperor) Yelm?

It just seems kinda silly to me to print all these books where they say that the sun god of the Orlanthi is Elmal, but having this be massively misleading if he's actually only a god of the night-time Lightfore.

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9 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This inevitably draws us back to the question that I posed a while ago: when an Orlanthi looks up at the sun disk overhead, does he identify it with Elmal, or the (Bad Emperor) Yelm?

It just seems kinda silly to me to print all these books where they say that the sun god of the Orlanthi is Elmal, but having this be massively misleading if he's actually only a god of the night-time Lightfore.

Most Orlanthi of the late Third Age call the sun disk "Yelm". Some say he serves or is carried by Elmal, others say he is the distant father of the more helpful Yelmalio. Some say the sun disk is the depersonalised Ehilm. Some heroquesters say all four is correct. 

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40 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Most Orlanthi of the late Third Age call the sun disk "Yelm". Some say he serves or is carried by Elmal, others say he is the distant father of the more helpful Yelmalio. Some say the sun disk is the depersonalised Ehilm. Some heroquesters say all four is correct. 

Like Helios versus Apollo?

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This inevitably draws us back to the question that I posed a while ago: when an Orlanthi looks up at the sun disk overhead, does he identify it with Elmal, or the (Bad Emperor) Yelm?

It just seems kinda silly to me to print all these books where they say that the sun god of the Orlanthi is Elmal, but having this be massively misleading if he's actually only a god of the night-time Lightfore.

Agreed. especially given that, if I recall correctly, the Guide to Glorantha was intended to be the basis of everything going forward and be the final authority. It no longer being canon when it describes Elmal and Kargzant as the Sun Gods of the Orlanthi and Pure Horse People (With no mention made of the Pentans following Yelm or Yu-Kargzant) is a bit unfortunate in that regard.

(Ignoring the whole "canon only matters for official works" given that they're disagreeing with each other. And of course I'm pretty sure those other books on the listing of what was canon no longer are, so I suppose it's no big surprise the guide is no longer canon either.)

Edited by Tindalos
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5 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Agreed. especially given that, if I recall correctly, the Guide to Glorantha was intended to be the basis of everything going forward and be the final authority. It no longer being canon when it describes Elmal and Kargzant as the Sun Gods of the Orlanthi and Pure Horse People (With no mention made of the Pentans following Yelm or Yu-Kargzant) is a bit unfortunate in that regard.

(Ignoring the whole "canon only matters for official works" given that they're disagreeing with each other. And of course I'm pretty sure those other books on the listing of what was canon no longer are, so I suppose it's no big surprise the guide is no longer canon either.)

This retcon is extremely irritating with all the excellent work that has been put into Elmal’s mythology over the last couple decades.

We’re told across multiple sources (and recent ones at that) that the Orlanthi call the Sun Disk Elmal. We’re also told the Orlanthi know about Yelmalio and identify him with Lightfore as a distinctly different celestial and mythological entity from Elmal.

Now suddenly the Orlanthi are all back to calling the Sun Disk Yelm and Elmal and Yelmalio are the same god.

It’s one thing to say that followers of Yelmalio believe them to be the same entity and that they believe the Orlanthi are confused and mistaken. It’s quite another thing to just pretend that the Orlanthi don’t believe there is a difference.

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I think this is an area where everyone's Glorantha will vary between a huge or substantial degree.

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On 12/30/2018 at 8:57 PM, Jeff said:

These are all local cults of the same mythological entity.

Yes. There are still differences, but if you try to treat one cult as the other, such as by trying to regain Rune Points in the 'wrong' temple, you will likely succeed, because it is the same entity. But then, the same is true of many pairs, or more, deities that are treated as different by their worshippers (Dendara/Ernalda, Veskarthan/Lodril/Balumbasta, etc). There are still difference in cultural context, 'mythic history', religious context. 

An example of the cultural context is the Yelmalio cult, being closer to Dara Happa, is, among other things, a bit more patriarchal, a bit less connected to the Heortling clan structure and more connected to a cult hierarchy, and a bit more about collective action (and in particular, fighting as a phalanx). The Elmal cult is a bit more integrated to a standard Heortling clan structure, fits into (adapted) clan hierarchy, and a bit more about individual heroism, and fighting mounted. Halamao is a bit more into... photosynthesis? Also being an elf, not being human, and defending forests, etc. This reflects within the rules mostly in the societies they form, and the skills they teach. 

An example of the 'mythic history' is that their mythology does differ a litte, but also different heroes and sects have shown different ways their god can be approached, and related to other powers. Elmal rejects Yelm and accepts the friendship of Orlanth, and as a result major heroquests play out a bit differently. This manifests within the rules mostly in *minor* changes to the core cult spells etc. I think these are pretty minor - IMG Elmal gets better magic as an individual initiate, because they were aided by Orlanth at the Hill of Gold etc and so didn't lose as much power to Zorak Zoran - which mostly means they still have access to Fire Arrow and Fire Blade and Ignite spirit magic (and use them enthusiastically). But in doing so, they lost the active connection to Yelm, so when it gets to the higher levels of the cult, their connection to Fire/Yelm is weaker - they have no access to Sunspear. Also, the Elmal version of the Hill of Gold HeroQuest might get them better Fire magic and/or let them defeat Inora or fight of ZZ, but at the expense of the physical immortality that Yelmalio gets, which is frankly a pretty poor deal (mind you, possibly still better than Antirius, who personally gets badly injured (but saves the Emperor from his own folly)). What exactly this means in Runic terms, is a mystery argument that really doesn't matter much - I think their access to eg Fire elementals is much the same. 

On the other hand, the Beren the Rider tradition has a lot to do with the history of Elmal, and has lead to a lasting link with the Redalda cult, which gives Elmal better access to horse magic. Which ties in well with their cultural role within the Orlanthi of specialising in horse raising and mounted combat. 

Also, IMG, the Gifts and Geases are a lingering remnant of the various mystic traditions that were a core part of the Yelmalio tradition in the first and second Age, and the Elmal cult is less excited about them. But there is enough cultural cross over that if you want your Elmal guy to have them, no problem. 

The religious context is really the cultural context in religious terms - in game terms, which associated cults are available. Some things are relatively constant. Almost every Little Sun variant acknowledges the connection to Ernalda. Many acknowledge Aldrya, but only a few have an active connection to elven communities - except elf Halamao cultists, for whom this is the most important associated cult by far, and active cross membership is common. Most have some acknowedgement of the Vrimak/Bird connection, but only in First Blessed is there an active Vrimak cult that enables cross membership, and more exotic bird connections such as maybr ridable hawks or mounted avilry. And of course Elmal has the horse connections. And Yelmalio has the Yelm connections - which are far more significant in areas were the Yelm cult is common. There are always tricks and subtlties - Yu-Kargzant and Yelm may be mythically the same, but that doesn't mean they religiously have the same relationship to Yelmalio. The relationship with Yelm the Father in Dara Happa, and Yelm as worshipped by the female elves 

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11 hours ago, daskindt said:

We’re told across multiple sources (and recent ones at that) that the Orlanthi call the Sun Disk Elmal. We’re also told the Orlanthi know about Yelmalio and identify him with Lightfore as a distinctly different celestial and mythological entity from Elmal.

Now suddenly the Orlanthi are all back to calling the Sun Disk Yelm and Elmal and Yelmalio are the same god.

I don't recall Jeff saying in this thread that "Yelm is the sun god of the Orlanth pantheon". Some Orlanthi calling the sun disk "Yelm" doesn't make that so. I don't see a retcon here, I see a useful clarification and more details.

 

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On 12/31/2018 at 11:44 AM, Jeff said:

I doubt the Hendreiki Elmal cultists know the Hill of Gold myth particularly well. They might stage something where their Son of Elmal or whatever his title is defends his yellow-painted palace against all comers. He gets beaten up, robbed, stabbed, but does not die and does not surrender. 

Thank you for your answer.

I have just finished the Glorantha Sourcebook and there are some parts of the text that seem to be contradictory.

Page 98, Lightfore is said to be a child of Pole Star: "Some of Pole Star's children were less stable or more adventuresome than the other Star Captains, and they took upon themselves to wander throughout the world, both before and during the Darkness. Many of these demigods were slain but one in particular, Lightfore, set a clear path that later gods also followed".

A few pages later, page 102, Lightfore becomes the Little Sun and is thus a son of Yelm "also known as Antirius by the Dara Happans, Kargzant by the Pentans and Yelmalio by the Orlanthi". Lightfore is considered as the part of the Solar Disk that never descends into the Underworld which is matching what we are told about Elmal page 100: "In Peloria, the Sun Disk is identified as Yelm, but among the Heortlings of DragonPass, the Sun Disk is identified with Elmal...". Note that the "family tree" page 96 clearly presents Lighfore as a son of Yelm.

I know that contradiction is in the nature of myths but is there something I am missing about Lightfore's father or the nature of Yelm and Pole Star?

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20 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Agreed. especially given that, if I recall correctly, the Guide to Glorantha was intended to be the basis of everything going forward and be the final authority. It no longer being canon when it describes Elmal and Kargzant as the Sun Gods of the Orlanthi and Pure Horse People (With no mention made of the Pentans following Yelm or Yu-Kargzant) is a bit unfortunate in that regard.

The Guide to Glorantha does not cover things in depth, it only provides a superficial coverage of many things.

I would expect that some subjects would get a more complex/in depth coverage in future supplements.

So, a Pentian supplement would explore the different Pentian deities and how they relate to each other and to other sun deities, for example.

 

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3 hours ago, Steve said:

I don't recall Jeff saying in this thread that "Yelm is the sun god of the Orlanth pantheon". Some Orlanthi calling the sun disk "Yelm" doesn't make that so. I don't see a retcon here, I see a useful clarification and more details.

 

Did I say that Jeff said that? I don’t believe that I did. Perhaps you can show me where I asserted that? It certainly isn’t in the quote by me that you were responding to.

I said that we’re told in several sources (Guide to Glorantha, Glorantha Sourcebook, Heortling Myths, and Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, for examples) that the Orlanthi call the Sun Disk Elmal.

Glorantha Sourcebook, pg. 100:

Quote

In Peloria, the Sun Disk is identified as Yelm, but amongst the Heortlings of Dragon Pass, the Sun Disk is identified with Elmal, Orlanth’s loyal thane.

According to Jeff:

22 hours ago, Jeff said:

Most Orlanthi of the late Third Age call the sun disk "Yelm". Some say he serves or is carried by Elmal, others say he is the distant father of the more helpful Yelmalio. Some say the sun disk is the depersonalised Ehilm. Some heroquesters say all four is correct. 

Now, there are several other places on these forums and on Facebook where Jeff has stated that previously published materials about Elmal are wrong and made it very clear that the new materials are changing much of the material about Elmal and the Orlanthi’s views on Yelmalio. So I don’t really think there’s any room to say that there isn’t a retcon going on. I’m trying very hard not to rehash those discussions though.

Jeff is in charge of RuneQuest and Glorantha and can choose to alter whatever he likes. I find his choices on Elmal vs Yelmalio very disappointing though. I’m sure there are plenty of people that were disappointed when Elmal was retconned into Glorantha’s mythology more than a quarter of a century ago at the expense of Yelmalio, but now it’s those of us that find Elmal to be an important and interesting part of Orlanthi culture that have cause to be disappointed.

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Anything that contradicts previous canon is a retcon.

It has always happened in Glorantha, since the very early days. If you read some of the early Wyrms Footnotes articles, you see that the names of Deities have been changed and what they do has been changed, even parentage has been changed. 

Does it matter? Yes and No. Yes, because people buy into a particular version of events and don't like it when it changes. No, because that is the kind of thing that fires up religious debate in the real world, so could well do the same in Glorantha.

For me, these retcons are the same as a Glorantha Hero going on a HeroQuest and coming back with a new insight into a deity. His followers are going to believe that and follow him, other people won't care or will stick to their previous ways and think of the Hero as a heretic or just plain wrong. In a Polytheistic setting, there is a lot of differences in how a certain Deity is worshipped.

So, just treat them as a different way of looking at the Deities concerned and stick to your preferred way if that's what you like.

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4 hours ago, Steve said:

I don't recall Jeff saying in this thread that "Yelm is the sun god of the Orlanth pantheon". Some Orlanthi calling the sun disk "Yelm" doesn't make that so. I don't see a retcon here, I see a useful clarification and more details.

 

If you ask the average Orlanthi in a place like Clearwine who the sun god is, they'll likely give you three answers:

1. Yelmalio. He is the Cold Sun, the Last Light that refused to fall in the Darkness. He is proud and independent, and although he is not a friend of Orlanth, he is a foe of the Darkness and of Chaos. His temples are locally powerful, and his cultists proud and arrogant.

2. Elmal. He is also called the Cold Sun and serves Orlanth. Elmal carries the Sun Disk, and helped humans in the Great Darkness. Many say he is a friendly mask of Yelmalio and those cults are intertwined. His temples are few, and his cult small, but he supported by the Orlanth temples. We Orlanthi call on him when we call upon the powers of Sky.

3. Yelm is the Sun God, and Emperor of the gods before Orlanth killed him and started the Gods War. He is the Sun Disk, too distant and too remote for us to worship, if we were even inclined. Orlanth made peace with him after the Lightbringers Quest and he is necessary for the world to function, and thus we acknowledge him, even if we do not worship him. 

 

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Looking at terrestrial cultures might be beneficial?

In ancient Akkadian the words for sun-disk included nipḫu and šamšatu, with the latter obviously related to the name of Šamaš  the Sun-god Shamash, but not identical. The word is also directly related to Arabic šams and Hebrew šemeš  and neither modern Arabs nor Jews view the sun as a god, but are still using a word derived from the name of a god.

So modern Orlanthi might refer to the sun in the sky as Yelm, but name the Sun-god Elmal (or Yelmalio).

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On 12/30/2018 at 6:57 AM, Jeff said:

The elf Yelmalio is the same deity as the Hendriki Elmal, the Orlanthi Yelmalio, the Pentan Kargzant (who is not Yu-Kargzant), and the Dara Happan Antirius. These are all local cults of the same mythological entity.

While there is clearly a Little Sun archetype that these beings all embody, to say that they are thus the same entity creates a great many more contradictions than it resolves. It's a very God Learner perspective, in that while it does reflect a deeper truth, it is also incomplete in application. If embodying the same archetype means that deities are in fact the same being, the Goddess Swap would have worked.

On 12/31/2018 at 1:04 AM, Jeff said:

For RQG purposes they all have Light and Truth. If I were to redo Elmal for HQ, he'd have Light, and not the full Fire Rune.

This new assertion that all Little Suns must also have Light rather than Fire is also at odds with tons of existing sources, not just Elmal's HQ writeup. The Little Suns are all missing something compared to the Great Ruling Sun, but they have not all lost the same thing.

Truth replaces Stasis among the Little Suns. In the broken world in which they arise, the perfection of the Great Ruling Sun is lost. They can only strive for it by inspiring Truth/Justice/Righteousness.

Antirius is referenced in The Glorious Re-Ascent of Yelm again and again as being not only bright and just, but also fiery. His warmth sustains the people beneath the Roof beneath the glacier, he melts the frozen rivers to bring fresh water. Even upon his deathbed, having been mortally wounded in his second expedition to the Hill of Gold, his body self-ignites as his spirit departs. When the prophet Avivath incarnates Antirius, his enemies are repeatedly burned. What Antirius does seem to lose as he is wounded by various miscarriages of his Justice is his brightness. TGRoY describes him as becoming dimmer and lower in the sky with each injustice. By the time of the Roof, the Orb of the Eye was no longer above his head (held instead by the Cruel God upon the Hill of Gold). He lacks Yelm the Rider's closeness with horses, but is connected to birds.

What he embodies that Elmal, Yelmalio, and Kargzant do not is his father's Mastery. Antirius embodies and blesses the correct emperors with righteous sovereignty. He prevailed against the rival Little Suns in the Suns Swirl, and overcame Sedenya's challenge. When the people of Nivorah chose to embrace their horse-loving Little Suns rather than join Manarlavus and Antirius beneath the Roof, they were driven from the Rich Land, and while Kargzant's followers would later rule, most emperors enthroned by the Jenarong/Kargzant rites were not righteous and could not maintain order.

Kargzant references also have no indication of being Fire-less. Kargzant in particular gathers together the remaining bits of fire & starlight scattered around the broken world, and Jenarong's funeral pyre inflamed the Wandering Sun so as to be seen throughout the Empire. His connection to horses is obvious, but he despises birds. What Kargzant lacks are Stasis/Truth and Mastery. He wanders wildly through the sky and his followers are nomads. The seize power through force, and even after completion of the Ten Tests, their rule is seldom a blessed one. 

Elmal shares Fire and horse-affinity with Kargzant (though the latter to a lesser degree) but maintains Truth. What Elmal lost is Mastery.  Despite being chief of the Hyaloring Gods during the Gods War, he eventually becomes the Loyal Thane. Thus do his people find lands and homes of their own rather than being forever nomads like Kargzant's.

 

 

Edited by JonL
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On 1/1/2019 at 8:28 AM, Jeff said:

If you ask the average Orlanthi in a place like Clearwine who the sun god is, they'll likely give you three answers:

1. Yelmalio. He is the Cold Sun, the Last Light that refused to fall in the Darkness. He is proud and independent, and although he is not a friend of Orlanth, he is a foe of the Darkness and of Chaos. His temples are locally powerful, and his cultists proud and arrogant.

2. Elmal. He is also called the Cold Sun and serves Orlanth. Elmal carries the Sun Disk, and helped humans in the Great Darkness. Many say he is a friendly mask of Yelmalio and those cults are intertwined. His temples are few, and his cult small, but he supported by the Orlanth temples. We Orlanthi call on him when we call upon the powers of Sky.

3. Yelm is the Sun God, and Emperor of the gods before Orlanth killed him and started the Gods War. He is the Sun Disk, too distant and too remote for us to worship, if we were even inclined. Orlanth made peace with him after the Lightbringers Quest and he is necessary for the world to function, and thus we acknowledge him, even if we do not worship him. 

 

I can find no reference to Elmal being called "the Cold Sun" prior to this comment. All references to "the Cold Sun" in the Guide are explicitly to Yelmalio or Sun Domers, while the Storm Pantheon entry lists "Elmal: Sun God". The term "Cold Sun" appears in SKoH only in the Sun Domer entry, starting with, "We are the warriors of the Cold Sun." followed by "What the Sartarites think: The Sun Domers are a strange cult who betrayed Elmal for the Cold Sun."  The phrase is completely absent from TGRoY, Sartar Companion, The Book of Heortling Mythology, Arcane Lore, and King of Sartar.

Having the keys to the kingdom, you're certainly within your rights to change things as you judge best, even things you wrote, even after saying that The Guide would be the foundation for official published works going forward. I gotta ask though, what's the upshot to this? What value do you see in this change that you find to be worth going back on all the above, having published Gloranthas contradict among current game lines, degrading the usefulness of existing reference materials, and so on? How do you see this revision leading to Maximum Game Fun to an extent that justifies the downsides?

Edited by JonL
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4 hours ago, JonL said:

The Little Suns are all missing something compared to the Great Ruling Sun, but they have not all lost the same thing.

This is a surprisingly good summation of a sustainable perspective on the Little Suns, imho.

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The fun thing about the search for truth in Glorantha is that Truth is dead and gone, seemingly mourned only by Lankhor Mhy. There are many truths, and neighbours (and other enemies 😜 ) will fight to the death to ensure that their truth will prevail over those other foul lies. I’m relaxed about the contradictory details, large and small, there are Gloranthans that believe each version and can prove those that they care about. And that’s what makes Glorantha so wonderful for me.

Orlanth has different names, different powers and different worship practices around Glorantha. Depending on the needs of the time and location, worshippers prove that they are different or prove that they are the same. And yet, we Gloranthaphiles never argue this, while every few years, there’s schisms over Yelmalio / Yelm / Elmal etc.

Edited by Charles
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2 hours ago, Charles said:

Orlanth has different names, different powers and different worship practices around Glorantha. Depending on the needs of the time and location, worshippers prove that they are different or prove that they are the same. And yet, we Gloranthaphiles never argue this, while every few years, there’s schisms over Yelmalio / Yelm / Elmal etc.

Almost as if the Storm and Solar adherents had a divergent outlook on authority and heritage. :-)

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1 hour ago, Charles said:

Orlanth has different names, different powers and different worship practices around Glorantha. Depending on the needs of the time and location, worshippers prove that they are different or prove that they are the same. And yet, we Gloranthaphiles never argue this, while every few years, there’s schisms over Yelmalio / Yelm / Elmal etc.

Yep. As I've been working on the same material that has me looking more carefully at the Many Suns, I see far more differences within the Orlanth cult than the Many Suns. Dragon-friend, dragonkiller, adventuring rebel, king, atmospheric thunderer, etc.

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I have sometimes considered a Kargzant:Yu-Kargzant :: Orlanth Adventurous:Orlanth Rex parallel. One could reasonably see Yu-Kargzant as a preservation of Jenarong's cult legacy, to which Plantonius would understandably never apply the Y- prefix in compiling TGRoY for Kordavu.

Edited by JonL

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On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 12:57 AM, Charles said:

Orlanth has different names, different powers and different worship practices around Glorantha. Depending on the needs of the time and location, worshippers prove that they are different or prove that they are the same. And yet, we Gloranthaphiles never argue this, while every few years, there’s schisms over Yelmalio / Yelm / Elmal etc.

But we also never assume or argue that Orlanth / Storm Bull / Vadrus / Umath are the same, though why wouldn't we if we go down the God Learner's path?

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54 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

But we also never assume or argue that Orlanth / Storm Bull / Vadrus / Umath are the same, though why wouldn't we if we go down the God Learner's path?

We just don't say such things where drinking bulls and unilluminated swords may overhear!

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2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But we also never assume or argue that Orlanth / Storm Bull / Vadrus / Umath are the same, though why wouldn't we if we go down the God Learner's path?

I've argued here that Orlanth and Vadrus seem to have bled over into each other, mytho-narratively, like with the Dragonslaying and Heler/Helera/Blue Woman-story. It's possible that either Orlanth "stole" Vadrus's triumphs when the latter died to Chaos and became irrelevant, that they actually really did both perform such similar acts - or that "competing" for the "ownership" of such acts was a kind of competition for the "rightful" high-kingship of the Storm Peoples in the aftermath of Umath's death. But who knows.

Then there's Entekos and her male storm servant, which might be a "neutered" form of Orlanth, or just a separate Air-entity endemic to Peloria/Pelanda.

And of course the Western Eight Worlds, where (H)Umat is used, iirc. Is that simply a different name for Orlanth? A preservation of a concept of Umath? Or a mishmash of different Storm Patriarchs (Orlanth, Umath, Humakt perhaps even) - that while different from Kethaelan/Kerofinela concepts still seems to work from a practical point of view and seem consistent, runically?

I guess what I'm getting down to is.... I'unno. Different interpretive models produce different answers.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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