Is Sword Trance broken?

[RosenMcStern]

3 minutes ago, Psullie said:

I'm not sure, the table on p199 says that with a Normal attack vs a normal parry excess damage goes to the hit location.

The attack will miss, so the entry that applies is "missed attack vs. normal parry". The problem is that not only the 200% humakti always parries, he also forces a miss on the first 5 attacks at least (more if he is over 200%. This is the most relevant effect, even more unbalancing than the antiparry, because it nullifies the advantage of outnumbering the sword trancer or using a bigger weapon that you cannot parry. No matter how much damage Bigclub the Giant does with his club, he cannot roll it and compare it to the sword HP when he misses. 

[Mugen]

12 hours ago, Psullie said:

There is a potential false economy with Sword Trance, for the attack 96+ is always a fail, a 00 a fumble. The defenders Attack will succeed on a 1-5. With Abilities above 100% all skills are reduced. So a Humakti with 90% Sword, pumps 10MP to go to 190%. he's jumped by 6 Trollkin with 30% skill. The effective numbers are 95% for the Humakti and 5% for the trollkin. So he's essentially spent 1 RP & 10 MP to get an effective +25. You could argue that the -20% for subsequent parries are absorbed by the Sword Trance bonus, so he does get to make 5 parries at 95%, and he still only gets one attack per round. 

so I don't think it breaks RQ

Well, that just means you have to adapt the number of MPs you spend depending on your opposition, and you don't spend the same number when facing 3 Trollkins and 3 Rune Levels.

[Psullie]

2 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

The problem is that not only the 200% humakti always parries, he also forces a miss on the first 5 attacks at least (more if he is over 200%.

But that's incorrect. The Huamki will fail to parry on a roll of 95+, and the defender will Hit on a 1-5 regardless of skill levels. Slim chances sure, but not guaranteed.

[RosenMcStern]

17 minutes ago, Psullie said:

But that's incorrect. The Huamki will fail to parry on a roll of 95+, and the defender will Hit on a 1-5 regardless of skill levels. Slim chances sure, but not guaranteed.

Exactly a 1 in 400 chance. You will pardon me, but I see no use in reminding the readers that this tactics has 399 to 1 chances of a favourable outcome. I think that writing "you always make the opponent miss" gives a much clearer representation of what to expect - and of the average RPGer's willingness to use this spell in this way.

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

No longer the case in RQG when your weapon skill is boosted to 200+. As I explained in the uzdo example, the problem is that the huge skill of the humakti forces a miss on the attacker. Instead of some damage overcoming the weapon parry points that you would have in RQ2/RQ3, you have the humakti's sword damaging the enemy weapon with each attempted blow.

•  I wasn't aware that high parry ability reduces the opponent's attack %. So I would expect the five Uzdo to attack at full. 
• While I expect the Humakti to parry most of the attacks in, I would also expect a decent amount of damage to get past the parry, and atg the very least, weaken the Humakti sword or shield. 
• I was aware that high attack skill does reduce the defender's parry, I also assumed that the Humakit would have to split attack to attack multiple opponents, and thus reduce his skill to the point where the opponent;'s wouldn't be affected. For example, if the Humakti had a Skill of 200% and was attacking two Uzdo, he would only be at 100% for each, and thus no penalties for the Uzdo. 

 

6 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

Thrown weapons can be parried....

Yes, but in RQ that usually meant that the parrying weapon could take damage. Don't tell me they ported over the dysfunctional combat matrix from Elric/Strombringer!

[RosenMcStern]

Atg, the key here is that the "antiattack" effect of the parry over 100+ (not present in RQ2) is way more significant than the antiparry (which was already there in RQ2).

It means that our 200% Humakti is able to go hand to hand with Bigclub the Giant. It does not matter how much damage the club does because the giant is big, against a 200% the attack misses (barring a 01-05, but note also that the giant has the same chance of fumbling with a 96-00) and it is the club that takes damage, not the sword as it would happen in RQ3. After some rounds in this way, not only the humakti has made some non-lethal but significant holes in the giant's hide, he is also fighting against Bigfist the Giant instead of Bigclub

In your uz example, it is true that the humakti must split the attack to hit both trolls in the same round, but in fact he does not need to. There is little or no chance the second uz will damage his weapon or score some damage with a massive attack, so it is better to cut down the first uz with a parry-downgrading attack on the first round, and just damage the weapon of the second one with an attack-downgrading parry. On round two, if the first uz is already down, the sword trancer cuts down the second uz, otherwise he goes on hitting the first and chipping away the second's weapon. With wolves or grizzly bears it is even more amusing, as the damage goes to the head or a claw. Don't tell PETA about this.

Same with the thrown attacks: the attack is reduced by the huge parry chance, so it misses and there is no chance of damaging the weapon.

I suspect 90% of the people who say the spell is not so powerful are thinking in terms of successful attacks vs. successful parries, but against a 200%er it is now (unlike RQ2/3) missed attack versus successful parry.

 

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

24 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

Atg, the key here is that the "antiattack" effect of the parry over 100+ (not present in RQ2) is way more significant than the antiparry (which was already there in RQ2).

It means that our 200% Humakti is able to go hand to hand with Bigclub the Giant. It does not matter how much damage the club does because the giant is big, against a 200% the attack misses (barring a 01-05, but note also that the giant has the same chance of fumbling with a 96-00) and it is the club that takes damage, not the sword as it would happen in RQ3. After some rounds in this way, not only the humakti has made some non-lethal but significant holes in the giant's hide, he is also fighting against Bigfist the Giant instead of Bigclub

In your uz example, it is true that the humakti must split the attack to hit both trolls in the same round, but in fact he does not need to. There is little or no chance the second uz will damage his weapon or score some damage with a massive attack, so it is better to cut down the first uz with a parry-downgrading attack on the first round, and just damage the weapon of the second one with an attack-downgrading parry. On round two, if the first uz is already down, the sword trancer cuts down the second uz, otherwise he goes on hitting the first and chipping away the second's weapon. With wolves or grizzly bears it is even more amusing, as the damage goes to the head or a claw. Don't tell PETA about this.

Same with the thrown attacks: the attack is reduced by the huge parry chance, so it misses and there is no chance of damaging the weapon.

I suspect 90% of the people who say the spell is not so powerful are thinking in terms of successful attacks vs. successful parries, but against a 200%er it is now (unlike RQ2/3) missed attack versus successful parry.

 

 

See, this was our experience the first time we really got the spell into action. I had a bade 100 skill, used sword trance with 29 MP. Used my 390% effective Greatsword skill to dismantle a single target every round and every time I parried I would damage their weapons or get lucky amd completely annihilate them on a special or critical parry. Yes, there are alternative ways to take out the Humakti with Sword Trance but, they can nearly trivialize any melee combat with the Spell. Even Big Club.

[Brootse]

When facing multiple opponents, couldn't they just hit him in the back?

[Kloster]

8 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

No matter how much damage Bigclub the Giant does with his club, he cannot roll it and compare it to the sword HP when he misses. 

Yes, true. This more a problem of the mixing of the skills (Attack and Parry) than anything else. The problem occurs when somebody has a big attack (whatever the way): As it is possible to parry with the attack weapon in the same round and you parry with the same skill, a good fencer can not be attacked by a giant's club and the small rapier will eat the club point by point.

Kloster

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

•  I wasn't aware that high parry ability reduces the opponent's attack %. So I would expect the five Uzdo to attack at full. 
• While I expect the Humakti to parry most of the attacks in, I would also expect a decent amount of damage to get past the parry, and atg the very least, weaken the Humakti sword or shield. 
• I was aware that high attack skill does reduce the defender's parry, I also assumed that the Humakit would have to split attack to attack multiple opponents, and thus reduce his skill to the point where the opponent;'s wouldn't be affected. For example, if the Humakti had a Skill of 200% and was attacking two Uzdo, he would only be at 100% for each, and thus no penalties for the Uzdo. 

Attack and Parry for a single weapon are now 1 single skill (like in Stormbringer). This is for me what causes problem, because this is what requires to have 18 trollkin on your Humakti to be able to touch him, not Sword Trance. The problem is aggravated by the 'Anti Parry effect' (and by the RQ2 skills modifiers in the case of a giant).

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

• Don't tell me they ported over the dysfunctional combat matrix from Elric/Strombringer!

Ehem, nobody told him? Frankly, I haven't checked if the table is the same as in Stormbringer.

Kloster

Edited January 23, 2019 by Kloster
Typing mistake

[Kloster]

52 minutes ago, Brootse said:

When facing multiple opponents, couldn't they just hit him in the back?

Attacking from the back is a situational bonus that gives a bonus to attacker (+40 if unaware of the attack), not a malus to parry, although it can be possible to apply something. The number of parry is the only point I have found that is sure to reduce Parry.

Kloster

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

See, this was our experience the first time we really got the spell into action. I had a bade 100 skill, used sword trance with 29 MP. Used my 390% effective Greatsword skill to dismantle a single target every round and every time I parried I would damage their weapons or get lucky amd completely annihilate them on a special or critical parry. Yes, there are alternative ways to take out the Humakti with Sword Trance but, they can nearly trivialize any melee combat with the Spell. Even Big Club.

Yes, with RQG, a high weapon ability, whatever the reason (high skill, bladesharp, sword trance, ...) will cause this. To evade this effect, you need numerous opponents, clever use of magic, ranged weapons or running away till the spell expires.

Kloster

[PhilHibbs]

Sword Trance is the "Crazy 88 Fight" spell.

[Brootse]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Attacking from the back is a situational bonus that gives a bonus to attacker (+40 if unaware of the attack), not a malus to parry, although it can be possible to apply something. The number of parry is the only point I have found that is sure to reduce Parry.

Kloster

What? You can parry hits struck behind you now?

Also, would you mind doing me a favour? Please please stop signing your posts, your name shows on the left.

[Kloster]

19 minutes ago, Brootse said:

What? You can parry hits struck behind you now?

RQG P223: Defenseless or Unaware Opponent: An attacker has a +40% chance of hitting an opponent when that opponent is on the ground, otherwise immobilized, or unaware of the attacker.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Attack and Parry for a single weapon are now 1 single skill (like in Stormbringer). This is for me what causes problem, because this is what requires to have 18 trollkin on your Humakti to be able to touch him, not Sword Trance. The problem is aggravated by the 'Anti Parry effect' (and by the RQ2 skills modifiers in the case of a giant).

Odd. Pendragon has had a single skill for years, and it works out fine, mostly because you have to split skill. It seems like  in RQG they combined one skill with "anti-parry" and then that with cumulative parry, and with parries damaging the attacking weapon. Of, basically, combining rules from RQ and Strombringer that were never designed to work together.

If so then Sword Trance still isn't the problem, it just the a symptom, since there are other ways to get combat skills over 100%, including good old experience.

So just to make sure I'm on the same page as everyone else here, if one guy with Sword 150% were fighting two opponents at 50%, he would be able to make one attack at 150%, but still reduce both opponents attacks by 50% (down to the default 5%)?And, since their attacks will most likely miss and his parries will most likely succeed, he will be probably be  damaging both of their weapons in the process? Is that a correct assessment of how the combat would play out in RQG?

 

[Atgxtg]

3 minutes ago, Kloster said:

RQG P223: Defenseless or Unaware Opponent: An attacker has a +40% chance of hitting an opponent when that opponent is on the ground, otherwise immobilized, or unaware of the attacker.

That doesn't indicate that the defender can parry those attacks though, just that they are easier to hit.

[soltakss]

For me, Sword Trance isn't broken. It can be used to give a PC a high Sword skill. So what? All you get is a PC with a high Sword skill.

I am currently watching 6 Flying Dragons, an excellent Korean historical drama. There are two Swordsmen in it who are very skilled. They can cut through 20 soldiers without raising a sweat. What does that mean? They are great in combat, but can't do much else. The more interesting characters are the ones who do other things. Having said that, watching them cut their way through an ambush on an orgy of swordsmanship was truly breathtaking.

In The Water Margin, Lin Chun used to get a lot of flack for being able to kill anyone in a fight. Again, so what? If he can then he can.

Same for PCs. If a PC is good in a fight, then he gets to take on more opponents, leaving the other PCs to take on the rest. He gets a reputation and people will either not fight him for who he is, challenge him more often or gang up on him to take him out.

[Pentallion]

On 1/21/2019 at 11:58 PM, Atgxtg said:

Hold the phone there Tywyll. I don't think there is a consensus that the spell is broken. You might have things about it that you don't like, at least in conjunction with some of the other rules in RQG, but that doesn't mean that everybody is up in arms over this. I'd say the reaction about this so far is mixed at best.If you feel the need to houserule this and want to post your houserule that's fine, but it's hasn't been show to be "clearly broken". 

 

 

The spell is clearly broken.  You being stubborn about admitting it is not withstanding.

But the simple fix is dump the skills over 100% rule that is the worst rule in the game.

Then sword trance goes back to being like ace trance in rq3.  Op but not quite broken.

Speedart is the most cost effective spell getting +3 and +15% for 1mp.  But its not stackable.  Look at the cost benefit of sword trance.  

It is broken.

[soltakss]

1 minute ago, Pentallion said:

But the simple fix is dump the skills over 100% rule that is the worst rule in the game.

Or, for me, the best rule in the game. I loved RQ2 AntiParry and bemoaned its loss in RQ3, which caused high level combats to take forever to finish. 

[Brootse]

9 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

The spell is clearly broken.  You being stubborn about admitting it is not withstanding.

But the simple fix is dump the skills over 100% rule that is the worst rule in the game.

Then sword trance goes back to being like ace trance in rq3.  Op but not quite broken.

Speedart is the most cost effective spell getting +3 and +15% for 1mp.  But its not stackable.  Look at the cost benefit of sword trance.  

It is broken.

Didn't really get the point of the skill decreases for opponents if yours is over 100%. But fortunately Runequest isn't a chess tournament, and you can use which ever rules you like. And any DM worth his salt can restrict spells if their players start distrupting the game with them. I think that I personally will start using the "it's a trance" rule someone suggested. Glorantha is a lethal place, and just being an unstoppable juggernaut to your melee opponents in front of you doesn't make you invulnerable, just shoot Achilles in the heel.

 

And thanks, Kloster.

 

e: would there be interest in a thread where people post their house rules?

Edited January 23, 2019 by Brootse

[Kloster]

15 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

So just to make sure I'm on the same page as everyone else here, if one guy with Sword 150% were fighting two opponents at 50%, he would be able to make one attack at 150%, but still reduce both opponents attacks by 50% (down to the default 5%)?And, since their attacks will most likely miss and his parries will most likely succeed, he will be probably be  damaging both of their weapons in the process? Is that a correct assessment of how the combat would play out in RQG?

Yes. At least, this is what I understand reading the rules. If someone can tell me I'm wrong, I will be very happy.

[Kloster]

15 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

That doesn't indicate that the defender can parry those attacks though, just that they are easier to hit.

As I have written above, I couldn't find anything about that. But I also write ' although it can be possible to apply something '.

[Kloster]

17 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

But the simple fix is dump the skills over 100% rule that is the worst rule in the game.

It is bad only if Attack and Parry are the same skill. Otherwise, I don't like it, but it works.

[SDLeary]

19 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

But the simple fix is dump the skills over 100% rule that is the worst rule in the game.

Or simply house rule the spell itself... a much easier procedure. A simple erratum that states the bonus applies to attack only.

That being said, I do not like the "Skill over 100" rules as they stand, as it does come with some wonky results to even unmodified combat IMHO. As they have HQ in their system stable, it would have probably been better to implement Masteries for the heroic level combat that Chaosium was shooting for; though for me the simple increase in Specials and Critical Hits, along with splitting skill to handle multiple opponents would have been enough.

SDLeary