Yelmalio again or Why I Ruined Your Glorantha Redux.

[MOB]

9 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Haha! YES.

You want to make the river happy, this is how it works.

A successfully performed River Ritual is vital for the well-being and prosperity of Sun County.

• Sea 1621 - Proxy for Count Solanthos in the customary fashion; then the Cradle Episode; Solanthos sends Light Son Wulf to perform the ritual again to make amends, and he fails.
• Sea, 1622 - River Ritual not performed due to the Windstop
• [Earth 1622 - Count Solanthos is killed by trolls at Angle Fort. But his heroic sacrifice helps bring forth Yelmalio's Last Light and the Miracle of the Garden, ending the Great Winter in this part of the world*. Solanthos is succeeded by the senior Light Son Lord Invictus.]
• Sea, 1623 - Belvani, proxy for Count Invictus
• Sea, 1624 - Belvani, proxy for Count Invictus

Here's the current state-of-play, now it is the so-called 'Time of Two Counts':

• [Storm 1624 - following the death of Invictus at Second Moonbroth, both Belvani and Vega are proclaimed Count; Belvani announces an alliance with Argrath and the resumption of Sun Dragon worship, and later sets up rival court in the Old Sun Dome.]
• Sea, 1625 - Belvani is adamantly certain the River Ritual will fail when Vega attempts it, on account of her being a woman. He can then gallantly step in, save the day, and secure his legitimacy. Belvani is blindsided when Vega instead sends a senior initiate in her place, and the ritual succeeds as normal. 
• Sea, 1626 - Belvani and Vega clash at the riverbank, and Belvani's forces are driven away. The ritual again succeeds with another senior Initiate serving as a proxy for Vega. (Soon after Belvani is driven out of the Old Sun Dome and retreats to Suntown in New Pavis).

Sea, 1627 - 

Although it is customary for a new count to enact the Zola Fel River Ritual in the first year of their reign, neither Belvani nor Vega has personally done so yet.

• "Count-in-Exile" Belvani rightly says he has already performed the River Ritual twice: he did so in 1623 and 1624, serving as a proxy for the ill-starred Count Invictus. Others whisper that Belvani fears the consequences to his legitimacy should he fail if he attempts it again now that he has proclaimed himself Count.
• Lady Vega for the past two years has prudently sent senior (male) initiates to complete the task “in the name of the Count”, while continuing to evade any culpability for the massacre at Five Eyes Temple and the death of the Zola Fel priest Ruupar. In the meantime, her priests delicately consult with Hector the Wise as to the best way for a female ruler to seal the bond with the river nymph Kinope.

Edited December 16, 2019 by MOB

[jajagappa]

2 minutes ago, MOB said:

Belvani is blindsided when Vega instead sends a senior initiate in her place, and the ritual succeeds as normal. 

Given the gender fluidity of River Gods, I wonder if Vega really even needs an initiate in her place!

 

[MOB]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Given the gender fluidity of River Gods, I wonder if Vega really even needs an initiate in her place!

The prudishness and excessive caution is certainly down to the Sun Domers rather than the Zola Fel folk. Though Vega's willingness to assume the role of Morkatos the Foreman to mobilise the Great Corvée, clad only in a kilt, shows she is willing to take on whatever roles are needed when needs must.

[scott-martin]

10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Given the gender fluidity of River Gods, I wonder if Vega really even needs an initiate in her place!

 

I think this is ultimately where she needs to step up. While I like B personally, he did the work of getting them through 1622 and is now a little extraneous. That's okay, he was always meant for bigger horizons. This is her patch of ground to claim.

Meanwhile I guess the nymph is happy, which tends to be all I care about.

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, MOB said:

Though Vega's willingness to assume the role of Morkatos the Foreman to mobilise the Great Corvée, clad only in a kilt, shows she is willing to take on whatever roles are needed when needs must.

I think her willingness to take on such roles will overcome the prudishness of a temple in crisis. And that will likely surprise Belvani even further! But I think will be why she is successful. The suggestion that an initiate took her place is clearly an innuendo put forth by Belvani's faction that she was incapable/unable to do this herself.

[MOB]

 

3 hours ago, MOB said:

[Earth 1622 - Count Solanthos is killed by trolls at Angle Fort. But his heroic sacrifice helps bring forth Yelmalio's Last Light and the Miracle of the Garden, ending the Great Winter in this part of the world*. Solanthos is succeeded by the senior Light Son Lord Invictus.]

*It is a matter of record that all successful efforts to end the Great Winter culminated at the same time (Clay/Disorder/Earth 1622). In far distant Sartar the Battle of Iceland reached its triumphant conclusion on this day. Locally, Orlanthi heroquesters at the Pairing Stones also returned victorious, and the first wisps of wind were felt since the disaster began. There are many other such heroic and triumphant stories across the vast region affected by the Windstop, from all manner folk of different backgrounds, races, and cults, each resolving the crisis in their own way. A coincidence perhaps, or Arachne Solara once again casting her web?

Edited December 16, 2019 by MOB

[Ali the Helering]

5 hours ago, MOB said:

 

*It is a matter of record that all successful efforts to end the Great Winter culminated at the same time (Clay/Disorder/Earth 1622). In far distant Sartar the Battle of Iceland reached its triumphant conclusion on this day. Locally, Orlanthi heroquesters at the Pairing Stones also returned victorious, and the first wisps of wind were felt since the disaster began. There are many other such heroic and triumphant stories across the vast region affected by the Windstop, from all manner folk of different backgrounds, races, and cults, each resolving the crisis in their own way. A coincidence perhaps, or Arachne Solara once again casting her web?

I Fought We Defrosted as a future myth? 

[Joerg]

56 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

I Fought We Defrosted as a future myth? 

Just a variant of "King Heort defrosts his wife"

[Akhôrahil]

On 12/16/2019 at 10:21 AM, Joerg said:

Just a variant of "King Heort defrosts his wife"

Is this a Women in Refrigerators reference?

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Is this a Women in Refrigerators reference?

technically, but since they are being defrosted it's not "fridging women"

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Is this a Women in Refrigerators reference?

I have been unaware of any fictional (or documentary) work of that title until now.

King Heort's wife Ivarne is the Frozen Woman which he finds somewhere and rescues, then marries.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I have been unaware of any fictional (or documentary) work of that title until now.

King Heort's wife Ivarne is the Frozen Woman which he finds somewhere and rescues, then marries.

uhhh Joerg please tell me you are joking? actual academic works have been written on this subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators

tfw a very clever joke is sidelined

Edited December 22, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Austin]

10 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

actual academic works have been written on this subject

Friendly reminder that while many of us have a semi-academic bent, I believe few folks around here are actual academicians of gender studies.  I've never encountered the phrase before myself (although I do recognize the trope, as described in the linked article).

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 minutes ago, Crel said:

Friendly reminder that while many of us have a semi-academic bent, I believe few folks around here are actual academicians of gender studies.  I've never encountered the phrase before myself (although I do recognize the trope, as described in the linked article).

it's not an academic term, though, it was coined by Gail Simone

[Joerg]

Another thread-jacking alert... Misogyny or absence thereof in Sun Domer society is mildly on topic, de-frosting Ivarne is already off-topic.

But yes, I come from a country where neither gender studies nor creationism are serious candidates for anything below master studies on the phenomena. But then neither do we learn all the medical terms for the bones in a human body, or the exact number thereof. Instead, there is the question whether the public schools should have ethics as an alternative or addition to religion and philosophy in the schools.

More on this in Alastor's Tavern, or a thread combining modern cultural developments with Gloranthan ones, please.

[Austin]

43 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it's not an academic term, though, it was coined by Gail Simone

1) No clue who Gail Simone is.

2) You did say "it's used in academic papers" to describe its frequent use, and most of the references when I skimmed the linked article seemed to be to other folks who are involved in gender studies academia.

I'm not saying the trope's irrelevant, just that it doesn't strike me as assumed pop-culture knowledge. Sort of like if I were to assume anyone I spoke with knew what hoi polloi means; known, but not default.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 hours ago, Crel said:

1) No clue who Gail Simone is.

2) You did say "it's used in academic papers" to describe its frequent use, and most of the references when I skimmed the linked article seemed to be to other folks who are involved in gender studies academia.

I'm not saying the trope's irrelevant, just that it doesn't strike me as assumed pop-culture knowledge. Sort of like if I were to assume anyone I spoke with knew what hoi polloi means; known, but not default.

I meant rather that the term is well-known enough that it has actual books written about the topic using that specific coined term, "fridging" and "women in refrigerators": the abuse of women as objects as motivational tool for male protagonists in media (books, films, tv shows, stories). It's not a special comic term: I don't read comics. (Okay I read Saga, the Glorantha of comics)

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

uhhh Joerg please tell me you are joking? actual academic works have been written on this subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators

If you haven't followed this very specific comics discussion, it's easily missed. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

If you haven't followed this very specific comics discussion, it's easily missed. 

apparently (although that's not how i heard of it)

[Bill the barbarian]

10 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Smipping a pretty pic and crying every time I cut...

stealing that pic for my own nefarious purposes, thanks Qizilbashwoman!

[JonL]

I'd be pleasantly surprised for someone in the US who hasn't specifically devoted attention (whether formally or casually) to the intersection of comics fandom and Feminist literary critique to be familiar with Gail Simone's critical writings, let alone someone farther afield with a different native language.

In Ivarna's case, I don't think she's an example of the fridging-trope, despite being literally frozen. Her fate matters to Heort, sure, but the whole world is falling apart. She also has a broader place in the Heortling cultural narrative as an exemplar of normative womanhood, rather than being narratively nonexistent outside Heort's pathos (though we have less of that material to read thanks to the historical gender imbalance in the RPG creator/consumer space, it is at least specifically mentioned as being part of the in-fiction context). Finally, and crucially in the context of Simone's work, she gets better by the end - and probably comes back stronger than before if you place her story in the context of Ernaldan initiation.

A key point in Simone's work that often gets overlooked in hot-takes is that while bad things happen to comics characters all the time (Drama!),  the men usually are back in fine form by the end of the next arc or two, while the women who get crippled/depowered/killed/exiled/whatever often don't get better for years or decades - if ever. When Bane snapped Batman's spine in the 90's, he was back in the the cowl inside two years. When Batgirl was similarly injured, she was a wheelchair-bound for 20+. When Hawkeye died in 2004, he reappeared in a reality-warp story that ran for much of '05-'06, and was fully back in '07. When Wasp (seemingly) died in '08, she didn't disprove that until 2012. (I actually prefer a resurrection story like that getting more time to breathe, but the double standard is nonetheless crappy.)

Circling back to Glorantha for contrast, when Kallyr suffers setbacks, even fatal ones, she bounces back and continues her great work. Only when her oath to liberate her people is fulfilled does she finally lay down her burdens and accept the final rest. 

[Jeff]

Just now, JonL said:

I'd be pleasantly surprised for someone in the US who hasn't specifically devoted attention (whether formally or casually) to the intersection of comics fandom and Feminist literary critique to be familiar with Gail Simone's critical writings, let alone someone farther afield with a different native language.

In Ivarna's case, I don't think she's an example of the fridging-trope, despite being literally frozen. Her fate matters to Heort, sure, but the whole world is falling apart. She also has a broader place in the Heortling cultural narrative as an exemplar of normative womanhood, rather than being narratively nonexistent outside Heort's pathos (though we have less of that material to read thanks to the historical gender imbalance in the RPG creator/consumer space, it is at least specifically mentioned as being part of the in-fiction context). Finally, and crucially in the context of Simone's work, she gets better by the end - and probably comes back stronger than before if you place her story in the context of Ernaldan initiation.

A key point in Simone's work that often gets overlooked in hot-takes is that while bad things happen to comics characters all the time (Drama!),  the men usually are back in fine form by the end of the next arc or two, while the women who get crippled/depowered/killed/exiled/whatever often don't get better for years or decades - if ever. When Bane snapped Batman's spine in the 90's, he was back in the the cowl inside two years. When Batgirl was similarly injured, she was a wheelchair-bound for 20+. When Hawkeye died in 2004, he reappeared in a reality-warp story that ran for much of '05-'06, and was fully back in '07. When Wasp (seemingly) died in '08, she didn't disprove that until 2012. (I actually prefer a resurrection story like that getting more time to breathe, but the double standard is nonetheless crappy.)

Circling back to Glorantha for contrast, when Kallyr suffers setbacks, even fatal ones, she bounces back and continues her great work. Only when her oath to liberate her people is fulfilled does she finally lay down her burdens and accept the final rest. 

This really has wandered a long way away from Yelmalio. 

[JonL]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

This really has wandered a long way away from Yelmalio. 

Three Blows Struck in Anger follows the Women in Refrigerators pattern pretty well, as far as that goes.

[Richard S.]

10 minutes ago, JonL said:

Circling back to Glorantha for contrast, when Kallyr suffers setbacks, even fatal ones, she bounces back and continues her great work. Only when her oath to liberate her people is fulfilled does she finally lay down her burdens and accept the final rest.

And if we can flip the trope around even more, Yelmalio, a decisively male character, remains crippled for eternity after his injuries!

How's that for getting back on topic

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, JonL said:

Three Blows Struck in Anger follows the Women in Refrigerators pattern pretty well, as far as that goes.

Yelmalio was not ever-victorious.. Among those he swore to protect was Ernalda the Earth Mother. Orlanth stole Ernalda from Yelmalio, so Yelmalio struck the Three Blows of Anger, killing three air deities, but he never regained Ernalda. Could be something right out of the Mahabharata or the Tain.