New version

[Tigerwomble]

I’ve looked through a few pages, but couldn’t see if this had already been answered, so apologies if it has. Are there plans to release an updated version of BRP?

[AndreJarosch]

Chaosium has answered similar questions before: 
It seems that there are NO PLANS to do a new/updated version of the BRP book. 
And i can´t blame them. This book doesn´t need an update, it is great as it is. 

And there will be no new setting or adventure books based on BRP alone anymore.

BUT Chaosium has plans to publish BRP (RQG, cleared from the Gloranthan additions) setting books in the future. 
These books are likely based upon RQG (with BRP tendencies) and will include the setting specific rules. So they will be stand alone RPGs. 

In the past 5 books (and additional supplements for them) were mentioned: 

Mythic Island (set in 950 AD)
Varangian RUs (set in 950 AD)
Arabian Knights (set in 950 AD)
Constantinople (set in 950 AD)
Pirates ((set in the 1600s AD)

Each book will include the RQ/BRP rules adjusted to the setting (especially magic i assume). 

 

[Tigerwomble]

Thanks, Andre.

just checking before throwing myself and my campaign into it.

[Tigerwomble]

Actually, whilst we're on the subject. I quite like the idea that Cthulhu 7 has implemented and that's making everything percentile (stats). I'm supposing that adopting this for BRP wouldn't be too much of an issue.

[seneschal]

3d6 stat times 5.  I don't necessarily regard it as a problem that needed fixing but it works and I can adapt.  I'm an unrepentant Big Gold Book-er but the BRP bosses have chosen other paths. 

[SDLeary]

6 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

In the past 5 books (and additional supplements for them) were mentioned: 

Mythic Island (set in 950 AD)
Varangian RUs (set in 950 AD)
Arabian Knights (set in 950 AD)
Constantinople (set in 950 AD)
Pirates ((set in the 1600s AD)

Each book will include the RQ/BRP rules adjusted to the setting (especially magic i assume). 

 

If they ever get off the ground. At this point we are still waiting on Mythic Iceland, which is actually in the cycle, and while the others have been tossed around before, I've seen no concrete commitment to any of them. I fear that Mythic Iceland will be the last fantasy BRP supplements, as Chaosiums interest seem to extend little outside of Glorantha and Cthulhu; and honestly I think they would prefer it die (along with MagicWorld).

That being said, you can use The Design Mechanisms excellent supplements with BRP with a little work.  They already have a ROME, Constantinople, Britain settings in their Mythic Earth line; all very excellent. ROME started life as a BRP supplement, and you might want to peruse NobleKnight if your interested and want to minimize work needed to get things going. 

SDLeary

 

[Rick Meints]

We are making no promises, but if we were to update the BGB, what could be improved?

NOTE: The printed BGB is available for sale still on our website, and certainly in PDF form on our website and DTRPG.

[seneschal]

Bastard children are still your kids and need love, too.  If Magic World can reach customers uninterested in the complexities of the RuneQuest multiverse, sell it, sell it, sell it!  POD and PDF means you don't have to maintain physical product.  Despise no potential revenue stream, especially since you have titles already written, play-tested and edited.  The work is already done; go make money off of it.  You have no guarantees of what titles will appeal to which customers, so promote all your excellent products, even the ones that may not be your personal favorites.  The money you get for them is just as green.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Rick Meints said:

We are making no promises, but if we were to update the BGB, what could be improved?

Wow.  I'm sure you folks will get a LOT of interest on this topic!

But since you ask...

There've been a bunch of innovations in BRP since the BGB, so I'd like to see those brought aboard!  Even things that may have been less than stellar in their initial format, should be revisited and polished up for possible BRP2.0'ing.  I'd like to see Stunts from BloodTide, Arete from AdvSrc, 3d6vsd100 stats (offer both), RQG's Augments, Pulp-style tunings from Pulp Cthulhu, Hero/Luck points, etc etc etc.  I would love to see a BRP-engined mini's/skirmish game, that could integrate as desired for either the combat element of traditional RPG's, and/or for doing larger "Battle" scenarios (I understand something in this direction is already in development for RQG?)

I'd want more n00b-support.  I don't feel like the BGB is something I can throw at my players (unless they're being really annoying, in which case the 1d3 damage is only what they deserve); its too wide-open, and pre-supposes too much systems mastery that they don't have, don't want to acquire.  Same goes for when I'm making a recommendation to 3rd parties, e.g. via online (non-BRPcentral) forums, in-person in FLGS, etc:  it's great, BUT you need to invest the time to figure it out.

Now, @Chaosium:  brace for incoming.  Please know that it's Friendly Fire... but I recognize that it's still incoming fire...

To be brutally honest -- and specifically because you ask -- take a good hard look at Mythras' organization & presentation.  It's easier to grasp their content than yours.  I see this sentiment widely echoed online, too... Mythras is widely praised for how approachable and comprehensible it is.  I think it's worth looking at a bunch of online reviews, even OUTSIDE the extended BRP family of games, and look for books where there is wide reviewer/fan agreement that they are comprehensible, accessible, clear... study those books (and the elements the reviews praise) in considering a BGB2.

BRP-BGB fans will point out that it's far more comprehensive (as opposed to comprehensible) than Mythras... but even from them I've read more than once it's "a bit of a hot mess" (or similar) in other regards.  I don't find it that bad, personally... but then I'm coming up on my 40th BRPthday (late '80 / early '81 (I forget, it was my freshman year at college... before or after winter break???)) so it's not like I'm going to hit the BGB and discover a concept that's strange, novel, or confusing to me...  So I'm NOT the person to best evaluate these issues (indeed, that I notice them at all is a testament to their severity, since I'm already familiar with their content).

Which leads me to the topic of the playtest/edit cycle.  Get a BUNCH more playtesters onboard.  Solicit MANY more never-BRP'ed folk, WITHOUT a grognard in those groups to ease their way.  Make this e-a-s-y to learn... and for fans to unreservedly recommend!  And find an editor who isn't a BRP-grognard... it's clear we're (ALL of us, not excluding Jeff & Jason & everyone else at Chaosium) far too capable of glossing over cross-edition discrepancies, preconceptions, expectations, etc.  It should be clear from the online criticism & support threads that you guys were at least 1 cycle (of playtest and/or edit) short, on RQG... it's a great game, and IMHO the best RQ ever; good work and don't let my (or anyone else's) criticisms take that away from you!  But it's REALLY close to being a LOT better than it is, and I honestly put the blame on the dev-team having so much systems mastery:  you needed more late-cycle eyeballs and editors who did NOT know all those 45 years of prior iterations so well...

===

I think it might be worth doing something that looked kind of like a BGB X WorldsOfWonder hybrid, a slipcase set (with separately-buy'able pieces) ... BRP-core + Supers + Tech + Fantasy, each a toolkit ... without the Superworld/FutureWorld/MagicWorld settings.  I presume Chris Spivey's work (possibly with Ringworld RPG?  Or possibly that IS the core from which Mr. Spivey is already working?) could give you the foundation of the "Tech" book.  

Maybe a "BRPadvanced" or "BRPcompanion" for non-"core" (but not Supe/Tech/Fant specific) options.

Possibly also a "retro-tech & alt-science" book for steampunk, clock/mech, crystal-tech, retro-future, etc.

I think other genres might occur, too.

Um... I think I'm done.

For now.

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by g33k

[seneschal]

If Cthulhu 7th really is out-selling Dungeons & Dragons 5th across the planet, that means y'all are in the big leagues now.  Your competition is no longer little one- and two-man shops such as Goblinoid Games or Monkey House Games.  You are up against freaking Hasbro and other giant toy companies of their ilk.  Scary, but it is a good thing.  And it means you need to think, plan and market your wares differently than you may have in the past.  You can't simply maintain a pretty and functional website, post links on DriveThru RPG, and expect customers to somehow discover you online.  You must pursue potential buyers like Hounds of Tindalos chase dimensional travelers.

Getting actual copies of all your titles on game shop shelves is important.  Personal experience shows me that they typically stock the core book of whatever you released last, and that's it.  And they are slow to restock.  That means that even dedicated gamers have never seen a copy of your beloved Pendragon, for example, and probably don't realize it exists.  That's revenue you just lost from the type of folks most likely to appreciate what you do.

But at this point, game shops are small beans.  You are going after the Barnes & Noble crowd, the Toys R Us crowd, even the Walmart super center crowd.  These folks, as well as the traditional nerds like me, must know that your games exist and that they are utterly cool, and that they must be able to acquire them before Christmas, birthdays, and national emergencies.  As I said elsewhere in a different discussion, you must learn to dream bigger dreams.  People will buy YOUR product rather than Scrabble or Clue or Trivial Pursuit.  Hollywood producers will option YOUR fascinating IP for the next blockbuster franchise while Disney and DC cry in the corner.  You gotta think that way.

Edited October 15, 2019 by seneschal
Add comment

[kross]

I think Chaosium are MUCH better at marketing than they ever have been. It's just a shame that the BRP line has been allowed to molder in favor of hawking CoC7, RQG, and the newer acquisitions of KAP and 7th Sea and the like. (Don't get me wrong, those lines needed to be advertised and sold, it's just that I wish they had allowed the BRP line to develop alongside the proven properties.)  I think the current company is much more capable of marketing a BRP line than their predecessors -- and that was one of many things that kept games like Magic World from getting the attention it deserved.

[groovyclam]

As much as any RPG book should be comprehensible ( especially to RPG noobs ) the problem with the BGB is that it is by it's very nature ( of trying to be all systems to all genres ) NOT a book for noobs. 

I think Chaosium have the right idea that each rulebook should have a genre built in and the system be tailored specifically to the genre. Most purchasers want to pick up and go when they buy a book; but if you buy the BGB you have to read it and then work out how you are going to apply those rules to the genre you are creating/want to play in. It just isn't a noob-friendly approach.

The BGB can definitely be marketed to gronards and rules lawyers but that is a niche market. Chaosium are probably best spending their resources on new genres to appeal to players than overhauling a book with a small market appeal.

[SDLeary]

Everything that g33k said, but ESPECIALLY this:

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Which leads me to the topic of the playtest/edit cycle.  Get a BUNCH more playtesters onboard.  Solicit MANY more never-BRP'ed folk, WITHOUT a grognard in those groups to ease their way.  Make this e-a-s-y to learn... and for fans to unreservedly recommend!  And find an editor who isn't a BRP-grognard... it's clear we're (ALL of us, not excluding Jeff & Jason & everyone else at Chaosium) far too capable of glossing over cross-edition discrepancies, preconceptions, expectations, etc.  It should be clear from the online criticism & support threads that you guys were at least 1 cycle (of playtest and/or edit) short, on RQG... it's a great game, and IMHO the best RQ ever; good work and don't let my (or anyone else's) criticisms take that away from you!  But it's REALLY close to being a LOT better than it is, and I honestly put the blame on the dev-team having so much systems mastery:  you needed more late-cycle eyeballs and editors who did NOT know all those 45 years of prior iterations so well...

Outside eyes to vet for consistency and understanding; making sure that we are working with a consistent core that isn't marred by the insertion of a something contradictory because its from a tailored version of the game, or our favorite house rule, because we didn't notice because we've been playing FOR EVER.

SDLeary

[seneschal]

You are right, groovyclam.  Much as I love the BGB, having an easy to grasp and play game for eager new customers to dive right into is the most important thing, regardless of genre.  I've been wrong.

[kross]

And I still think it would have been a good idea to release a BRP Essentials book, with just the basic rules pared down to where casual and/or DIY folks could convert or create their own games/genres.

[SDLeary]

6 minutes ago, groovyclam said:

As much as any RPG book should be comprehensible ( especially to RPG noobs ) the problem with the BGB is that it is by it's very nature ( of trying to be all systems to all genres ) NOT a book for noobs. 

I think Chaosium have the right idea that each rulebook should have a genre built in and the system be tailored specifically to the genre. Most purchasers want to pick up and go when they buy a book; but if you buy the BGB you have to read it and then work out how you are going to apply those rules to the genre you are creating/want to play in. It just isn't a noob-friendly approach.

The BGB can definitely be marketed to gronards and rules lawyers but that is a niche market. Chaosium are probably best spending their resources on new genres to appeal to players than overhauling a book with a small market appeal.

To many people, the settings in the rulebooks ARE intimidating, simply due to their depth. Chaosium has no current product that serves as a gateway into their system... only straight jumps into their worlds.

Now I agree, the BGB in its current incarnation is not a good gateway either, but a revised edition, or a revised line of books, could remedy this. Perhaps "Basic RolePlaying" is a book that has a slightly more comprehensive in core rules than the Quickstart, with additional sections that add sections on generic Supers, Fantasy, and SciFi. These genre sections would not only have rules specific to them, but basic GM info on how to handle as a whole, and certain common situations that might crop up. This is the Worlds of Wonder model, and what it was originally intended to be. 

Another book, the BRP Companion, would arrive at the same time, or a little later, and contain the rest of the toolkit. Additional rules that can be bolted on as desired: Category Modifiers, Passions, Personality Traits, Bonds, Sanity, additional power and magic systems, deeper combat, faiths/cults, etc.

SDLeary

[seneschal]

We sorta-kinda got that with the Basic Roleplaying Quick-Start book, still free in PDF and about $12 in softcover.  It is robust enough to run scenarios with human-level PCs. We'd have to expand it a bit to enable new GMs to build their own critters and gear:

[SDLeary]

22 minutes ago, seneschal said:

We sorta-kinda got that with the Basic Roleplaying Quick-Start book, still free in PDF and about $12 in softcover.  It is robust enough to run scenarios with human-level PCs. We'd have to expand it a bit to enable new GMs to build their own critters and gear:

But only run scenarios with regular human characters in a real-world-esque arena, there is not tech beyond lasers in the small weapons tables, nothing that evokes anything fantastical, and nothing that suggest anything comic book-y. For the DIY crowd,  you generally have people that have their own fantasy or sci-fi world, and on rarer occasion, a supers based world. Having the sections, or separate small books if a slipcase as @g33k suggested, would open things up to a wider crowd. 

Thus, BRP would be the entry product. BRP Companion for those who wanted to expand further with more options, such as the ability to build critters and gear, as you suggest, and more besides.

SDLeary

EDIT: By the way, my preferred rule treatment for the entry product would be as presented, minus IP and dress, in The Laundry. I'm not sure why, but this has always struck me as a really clean and concise read of the rules. Perhaps it had to do with the particular division of labor between Gareth, @Jason Durall, and John.

Edited October 15, 2019 by SDLeary
Added suggestion

[rsanford]

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

To many people, the settings in the rulebooks ARE intimidating, simply due to their depth. Chaosium has no current product that serves as a gateway into their system... only straight jumps into their worlds.

Now I agree, the BGB in its current incarnation is not a good gateway either, but a revised edition, or a revised line of books, could remedy this. Perhaps "Basic RolePlaying" is a book that has a slightly more comprehensive in core rules than the Quickstart, with additional sections that add sections on generic Supers, Fantasy, and SciFi. These genre sections would not only have rules specific to them, but basic GM info on how to handle as a whole, and certain common situations that might crop up. This is the Worlds of Wonder model, and what it was originally intended to be. 

Another book, the BRP Companion, would arrive at the same time, or a little later, and contain the rest of the toolkit. Additional rules that can be bolted on as desired: Category Modifiers, Passions, Personality Traits, Bonds, Sanity, additional power and magic systems, deeper combat, faiths/cults, etc.

SDLeary

A clarification... Chaosoium has no current SUPPORTED product that serves as a gateway to their product. Magic World is exactly this and for the moment Chaosium still has print copies and of course the PDF files.

[Ian Absentia]

4 hours ago, seneschal said:

Your competition is no longer little one- and two-man shops such as Goblinoid Games...

And...there it is.

!i!

[MOB]

5 hours ago, seneschal said:

If Cthulhu 7th really is out-selling Dungeons & Dragons 5th across the planet, that means y'all are in the big leagues now.

Call of Cthulhu is certainly outselling D&D in Japan, and maybe in some other places, but it would be a real stretch to extend that to "across the planet". D&D is overwhelmingly the most popular tabletop RPG globally.

3 hours ago, SDLeary said:

To many people, the settings in the rulebooks ARE intimidating, simply due to their depth. Chaosium has no current product that serves as a gateway into their system... only straight jumps into their worlds.

Well, as you say, we do have Quickstarts (Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest et al), and once you’ve learned to play one of these games, you've pretty much got what you need to play any of the others that use BRP as their core engine.

[SDLeary]

2 hours ago, rsanford said:

A clarification... Chaosoium has no current SUPPORTED product that serves as a gateway to their product. Magic World is exactly this and for the moment Chaosium still has print copies and of course the PDF files.

Fair. The issue as I see it is one of visibility. They aren't supported, so don't get a prominent position on their web page. They are listed under Other Games; a somewhat odd place for a company to place what amounts to the core of it rules systems, and the foundation for its games. If there were a new release, presumably they would be more visible, and probably more sought after as a result.

SDLeary

 

[SDLeary]

57 minutes ago, MOB said:

Well, as you say, we do have Quickstarts (Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest et al), and once you’ve learned to play one of these games, you've pretty much got what you need to play any of the others that use BRP as their core engine.

Yes, but a quickstart for a Gloranthan game doesn't really help a DIY type, or say someone that no longer wants to play D&D but doesn't want to toast his ongoing campaign of the last 20 years. They want something that's not too tied to something else, and enough in the way of tools to assist them in checking things out, or coming over en-masse. This is one of the reasons that Savage Worlds became popular, and to a lesser degree why GURPS and Hero are still around, among others.

System as gateway, then hook them on the settings.

And, just so that you know that I'm not really biased as to settings, it CAN be done the other way too. The Literary route. Stories that people can read to get them interested in the setting, and then perhaps to the game. Cthulhu of course has this as its based upon the stories of others, but nothing like this really exists for Glorantha. I'm sure someone will point to KoS, but I don't remember this ever being marketed outside the already existing Gloranthan community.

SDLeary

Edited October 16, 2019 by SDLeary

[Nick J.]

20 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Yes, but a quickstart for a Gloranthan game doesn't really help a DIY type, or say someone that no longer wants to play D&D but doesn't want to toast his ongoing campaign of the last 20 years. They want something that's not too tied to something else, and enough in the way of tools to assist them in checking things out, or coming over en-masse. This is one of the reasons that Savage Worlds became popular, and to a lesser degree why GURPS and Hero are still around, among others.

System as gateway, then hook them on the settings.

And, just so that you know that I'm not really biased as to settings, it CAN be done the other way too. The Literary route. Stories that people can read to get them interested in the setting, and then perhaps to the game. Cthulhu of course has this as its based upon the stories of others, but nothing like this really exists for Glorantha. I'm sure someone will point to KoS, but I don't remember this ever being marketed outside the already existing Gloranthan community.

SDLeary

This is exactly why I found Magic World compelling. I was a D&D refugee who was looking for something that was a little grittier and grounded: neutral enough that I could run my own settings or ideas in it and enough meat in the rules to cover most of the questions that arise during play, but loose enough that I don't feel straight-jacketed.

To that end I really would love a revised version of BRP that had a nice, tight base book and then modular systems that could be bolted on  in separate books/booklets to steer it towards a particular genre or setting books that tailor the system to a unique vision. It doesn't need to be a door stop.

As much as I love Magic World and feel like it hits a sweet spot for me in terms of complexity, it really feels held back by some lackluster layout, organization, and production values. All of these things probably made it tough to market in a really crowded retail space, and I'll be honest, the name turns some people off when I've talked to people about the game.

All that said, I'm no marketing genius, and I have no idea how viable a new BRP revision would be, but those are the sorts of things that pique my interest.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Nick J.
grammur

[g33k]

2 hours ago, MOB said:

Call of Cthulhu is certainly outselling D&D in Japan, and maybe in some other places, but it would be a real stretch to extend that to "across the planet". D&D is overwhelmingly the most popular tabletop RPG globally...

The last time I saw numbers that I was inclined to trust, the USA was  by far  the largest market for RPG's.

Sufficiently so that pretty much by-default, whatever was "most popular" in the USA was also the "global" leader.

I am not finding that info now (I saw several years ago), let alone up-to-date info.