Themed shamans

[Qizilbashwoman]

Okay so this question is a little odd:

You know how Earth Witch (Serdrodoso) is a specific thing? A shaman cult for Earth rune. You don't Rune worship her.

She's likely also Aleshmara, the Agimori god associated with yams and chickens. In Pamaltela, the Earth god is male, Pamalt, but there's a female Earth Witch. I don't believe Pamalt did what Genert did and threw off daughter/son gods of grains; He just runs the whole town.

Are there any parallels for other runes? I know there's a Storm one, of course.

But is there a Fire rune god out there that's just for shamanising? Or Darkness? Jakaleel exists for Moon, although I guess it's complicated because I think you can also throw lunes with Her - does anyone know? She always confused me between HQ and not having RQ3.

Anyway, shamanising is very interesting to me in Glorantha, so ... discuss

Edited November 26, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[JonL]

8 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

But is there a Fire rune god out there that's just for shamanising?

Oakfed comes to mind.

  

8 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Or Darkness?

Some approach Inora this way.

Edited November 26, 2019 by JonL

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 minutes ago, JonL said:

Oakfed comes to mind.

  

Some approach Inora this way.

Inora is shaman-only? I didn't realise that.

Oh, Oakfed! Yeah, He doesn't have temples, right?

[JonL]

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

Inora is shaman-only? I didn't realise that.

Oh, Oakfed! Yeah, He doesn't have temples, right?

I don't think I'd conclusively call any deity "shamans only" besides Horned Man, but in Prax Oakfed's the main partner of the Burners society, and Inora is the main partner of the Shadow People society. The latter is The White Princess in Nomad Gods.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 minutes ago, JonL said:

I don't think I'd conclusively call any deity "shamans only" besides Horned Man, but in Prax Oakfed's the main partner of the Burners society, and Inora is the main partner of the Shadow People society. The latter is The White Princess in Nomad Gods.

I mean... that's the entire shtick of Serdrodoso, she was the shaman who could reach Ernalda when She was dead. She's got the same routine as Horned Man.

[JonL]

4 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I mean... that's the entire shtick of Serdrodoso, she was the shaman who could reach Ernalda when She was dead. She's got the same routine as Horned Man.

I've certainly never heard of anyone doing rune magic with/as her. I'm just of a mind that these entities (mostly) respond in reflection to however they are approached. Most have one practice or another that is dominant within a given culture, but I think Storm Bull is unusual only in that his heterodox followers realize they're all on the same team and hang out sometimes. For as much as I'm often a voice for more distinct entities and less outright Interpatio Jrustela around here, West King Wind is clearly how Orlanth responded to Pentans shamanic entreaties. 

 

[g33k]

24 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I mean... that's the entire shtick of Serdrodoso, she was the shaman who could reach Ernalda when She was dead. She's got the same routine as Horned Man.

There is, maybe, the POV that Serdrodosa is an Other Self of Ernalda.  Ernalda-in-Dreams, Ernalda's Ghost.

Maybe... Ernalda's own Fetch?

There is always another way, after all...

[davecake]

Aleshmara isn't Earth Witch, or shaman only. She has some great temples scattered about the plains. Though Earth Witch is associated with Aleshmara for sure. To a God Learner eye, Aleshmara is Ernalda (though it's a bit more complicated than that). 

Dehore is probably Darkness shamanism. 

The main shamanism tradition of the Sea pantheon is Veredth. 

GaGoG says Oakfed isn't really shaman only - its the same deity worshipped as Enverinus by the Dara Happans and Furalor by the Teshnans. But shaman only among the Praxians and Orlanthi. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by davecake

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, JonL said:

I've certainly never heard of anyone doing rune magic with/as her. I'm just of a mind that these entities (mostly) respond in reflection to however they are approached. Most have one practice or another that is dominant within a given culture, but I think Storm Bull is unusual only in that his heterodox followers realize they're all on the same team and hang out sometimes. For as much as I'm often a voice for more distinct entities and less outright Interpatio Jrustela around here, West King Wind is clearly how Orlanth responded to Pentans shamanic entreaties. 

 

So Storm Pentans are largely shamanic rather than theistic?

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Aleshmara isn't Earth Witch, or shaman only. She has some great temples scattered about the plains. Though Earth Witch is associated with Aleshmara for sure. To a God Learner eye, Aleshmara is Ernalda (though it's a bit more complicated than that). 

I'm definitely gonna nope out of God Learner ideas here; Pamalt and Aleshmara got things handled in Pamaltela, where things are apportioned differently. Certainly Alesh has a lot more aspects to Her than Serdrodosa - after all, She is a kind of "grain goddess" and a kind of minor "Eirithia" in that She is the yam and fowl goddess - but she's definitely not anything like Ernalda.

YGWV but also Pamalt ain't Genertela; the Brothers Earth had different families

Edited November 27, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Austin]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

Dehore is probably Darkness shamanism.

IIRC Dehore is noted as the troll equivalent of the Horned Man in RQ3's Troll Gods supplement, and I don't remember anything in his entry in the Glorantha Sourcebook which leads me to believe this role has been de-canonized.

The whole entry "Spirits of Darkness" in the RQ3 supplement might make interesting further reading for you, @Qizilbashwoman. I don't know how canon it is nowadays, but I came across it recently while searching for alternatives to RQG's cults for the trollkin adventurer in my playgroup, and it presented an interesting picture on my skim through the article.

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Anyway, shamanising is very interesting to me in Glorantha, so ... discuss

It's probably worth looking at the bigger picture for this, mainly because RuneQuest obscures the world machine with rules.

• The Three Worlds came in to existence when the spike was shattered.
• Those present at the time can access the different world to varying degrees. 
• This is reflected in the a cultures spectrum of worship and magic types (it can be visualised as a triangle)
• Few cultures (if any) have a single type of worship. Most theistic cultures have a shamanic element and vice versa - mixed worship is the norm.
• so most god time beings can be accessed in these different ways eg:

Orlanth - theism / Kolat - shamanism

Ernalda - theism / Earth Witch - shamanism

Yelm - theism / Golden Bow - shamanism

and with this, the spectrum extends further as each part can have aspects - subcults / spirit cults.

Oakfed for instance has a cult. subcult within other cults and a spirit cult. Oakfed's worship spans theism to shamanism.

• Magic from god time beings may also vary and may give spirit magic and theistic magic in varying proportions.
• Theists can get rune and spirit magic from their god time being likewise spirit practitioners (members of shamanic cults and spirit cults)

12 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

But is there a Fire rune god out there that's just for shamanising? Or Darkness?

So the answer is yes. But not just for shamanising - Yelm owns the fire rune, so it's possible to access Fire magics through organised theism and shamanism. Shamans can access Fire rune magic by meeting fire spirits or Yelm himself (go to the sun - it's a dangerous thing to do) it's on the spirit contact table too - 00 (d100) Deity (POW) Unlimited (CHA).

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Jakaleel exists for Moon, although I guess it's complicated because I think you can also throw lunes with Her - does anyone know? She always confused me between HQ and not having RQ3.

Lunes are Moon spirits, Jakaleel can summon them as she's tied to Moon, Darkness & Death she's also good with Darkness & death spirits. Jakaleel is a good example of a mixed cult. She has temples and her Witch-priests are shamans. Because Jakaleel herself was a Blue moon worshipper, shamans can likely find Selene's to include in their entourage. 

[None]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

The Three Worlds came in to existence when the spike was shattered.

That's interesting.

Does that mean there was no difference between shamanism, theism and sorcery before the spike shattered?

Edited November 27, 2019 by None

[EricW]

I suspect all shaman are themed to a  degree. A chaos shaman won't have much luck dealing with anti-chaos spirits. Many of the shaman's dealings are surely coloured by the conditions demanded by those which whom they deal. A spirit which can only offer one spell is as likely to demand conditions of worship as the most powerful god or godess.

Sure the shaman might have the power to beat off a few spirits of retribution, but is this really how they would operate? Wouldn't they be more likely to form long term relationships, and do their best to adhere to all the weird little conditions demanded by the minor and not so minor spirits who grant their power?

[Akhôrahil]

17 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Or Darkness?

Kyger Litor is her own shaman version, supporting both styles at once. As is fitting for a Darkness deity, as the worlds are a lot more intermixed down there.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, EricW said:

I suspect all shaman are themed to a  degree. A chaos shaman won't have much luck dealing with anti-chaos spirits. Many of the shaman's dealings are surely coloured by the conditions demanded by those which whom they deal.

RuneQuest covers this fairly well with the runes - you can fend off all kinds of spirits, but you will be using the rune for magics from the Cult/Spirit Cult, and if your runes for that are crappy...

(In my game, the Assistant Shaman with a Beast rune of 20% is currently hilariously being tutored by a shaman of Brother Mouse, because he was just that desperate to find an actual teacher after losing his old one.)

Edited November 27, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 hours ago, None said:

That's interesting.

Does that mean there was no difference between shamanism, theism and sorcery before the spike shattered?

The different worlds models are a bit hazy, and have varied throughout Glorantha's different publications, iirc.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, None said:

Does that mean there was no difference between shamanism, theism and sorcery before the spike shattered?

Maybe yes maybe no. I'd recommend runing a God Learner HeroQuest back to the Golden Age to find the truth.

Shamanism isn't the magic though. Rune /theist magic is something you are, Sorcery is something you know and spirit magic / charms are something you have. There was likely no separation between being, having and knowing. Shamanism didn't appear as a way of interacting actively with spirits (not dead people) until the entity who became the Horned Man was awoken by his near death experience with Kajabor. His escape not only changed himself, but precipitated Kajabor birthing Bad Man as his nemesis /mirror self. 

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

• The Three Worlds came in to existence when the spike was shattered.

I know I am a grognard, no need to give you the permission to call me one. Still, the Four Worlds and their collision pre-existing the Shattering of the World make a better story to me.

The fault lines of the Breaking of the World (the bottomless trenches of the Doom Currents) follow roughly the ancient borders of the pre-collision Four Worlds, with the southwestern trench slanted to the side rather than vertical, and about to be pulled shut by the Somelz project of the Mostali at the Capstan of Jrustela.

So yes, the Shattering of the Spike undid some of the previous unification of the worlds. But it takes a whole lot of useful material e.g. in Revealed Mythologies but also elsewhere into the shredder to claim that there were no such separate realms beforehand. Too much of a retcon for me.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

23 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I know I am a grognard

i am also a grognard. all that means is you been around a long time. it doesn't mean anything else!

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i am also a grognard. all that means is you been around a long time. it doesn't mean anything else!

Literally, it means something like "grumbler" or "mutterer". Having been there since before the Breaking of the World is part of that, too, but the spirit of contrariness is implicit in the term

[Qizilbashwoman]

40 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Literally, it means something like "grumbler" or "mutterer". Having been there since before the Breaking of the World is part of that, too, but the spirit of contrariness is implicit in the term

i mean it means an old soldier, right? I played red box D&D, if I were a dude I'd have a santa beard

[Bill the barbarian]

5 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i mean it means an old soldier, right? I played red box D&D, if I were a dude I'd have a santa beard

Careful about that santa beard I'm sporting’ eh! <grin>

I believe that grognards goes back somewhat further to the very early 1800s and referred to Napoleon's generals and they’re love of playing with toy soldiers and refighting old battles with arguing over who hit whom and what rules systems to use to determine this...and as Joerg says just  grumbling an awful lot. If not it does go back to the czar’s generals doing much the same thing using toy french, russian and prussian soldiers...

an old grognard

[Bill the barbarian]

 

Quoted from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grognard

 

 

Quote

 

From French grognard (“grumbler”).

 

• IPA^(key): /ˈɡɹɔnjɑɹ/, /ˈɡɹoʊn.jɑɹd/, /ˈɡɹɑɡ.nɑɹd/

 

grognard (plural grognards)

1. An old soldier.
2. (historical) A soldier of the original imperial guard that was created by Napoleon I in 1804 and that made the final French charge at Waterloo.
3. (games, slang) Someone who enjoys playing older war-games or roleplaying games, or older versions of such games, when newer ones are available. quotations ▼

   James is such a grognard, he only plays the original edition of Dungeons and Dragons.

 

1.