Humakti and Zorak Zorani in the same group?

[JonL]

They have both sworn to slay the other once they have finished killing every last follower of Yanafal Tarnils.

[Ian Absentia]

51 minutes ago, JonL said:

They have both sworn to slay the other once they have finished killing every last follower of Yanafal Tarnils.

The more I think about this, the more I realise what a great '80s-action movie franchise this would've made.

Dead and Deader
Dead and Deader 2: The Deadening
Dead and Deader 3: Die, Die Again
Dead and Deader 4: Stay Dead

!i!

[g33k]

5 hours ago, JonL said:

They have both sworn to slay the other once they have finished killing every last follower of Yanafal Tarnils.

Congratulations.

They have created the Gloranthan version of "Job Security."

[JonL]

34 minutes ago, g33k said:

Congratulations.

They have created the Gloranthan version of "Job Security."

They will totally bend over backwards to save eachother's lives too.

Edited December 19, 2019 by JonL

[g33k]

50 minutes ago, JonL said:

They will totally bend over backwards to save eachother's lives too.

Well of course they will !

It'd be really embarrassing if some schmuck YT geek got in the way of (either of them) fulfilling their oath!!!

Not to mention, such a death might actually appear (to some) as if they wanted it to happen, let it happen.  Which would paint them a coward, unwilling to face the other.

No, no.  Best make sure the death is claimed by it's rightful, oath-sworn claimant!

 

😂

[Atgxtg]

On 12/15/2019 at 9:15 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

That Humakt hates undead but is neutral to Chaos is bizarre as all hell and feels really gamey. I first assume it had to do with some kind of thematic myopia (he's the god of death, cares only about doing that thing), but then we know his character is all about oaths and honor and stuff, so that doesn't quite cut it. 

There's obviously ways to explain this away - there always are - but it's weird.

I always viewed it as Humakt being the premier god of  death, and his viewing  anything that defies death as unnatural and wrong. Hence why Humakti can't come back from death and why undead  is considered an abomination. Chaos, in and of itself is a non-issue.

I think the Lunar religions are a lot weirder. They are pro-Chaos, yet pretty much all the Chaos cults we have info on are evil. It's not like Malia or Thanatar are the sort of cults you want in your city, even if you are pro-Chaos. Chaos would seem to be a  tough sell if the best  poster child they can come up with is the Crimson Bat.

 

[JonL]

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I always viewed it as Humakt being the premier god of  death, and his viewing  anything that defies death as unnatural and wrong. Hence why Humakti can't come back from death and why undead  is considered an abomination. Chaos, in and of itself is a non-issue.

Death itself is kind of Chaos adjacent. Things aren't supposed to go back and forth between the Middle World and the Underworld. Eurmal found the Sword that is Death in the deepest hells, not coincidentally where the Chaosium itself lies. Eurmal should not have gone to the Underworld. Eurmal should not have brought Death back. Killing Grandfather Mortal broke all the Man Rune beings. Killing Yelm not only wrongly sent his Fire & Light to the place that should be Dark & Cold, it deprived the Middle World of his sustaining Stasis as well, making things even less stable. Bjiff's arrival below drove the Uz to the Middle World and unleashed their hunger upon the living things rather than keeping things in balance by eating bad things that emerge from the Chaosium like the good and proper cosmic immune system they were (though when the Unholy Trio unleashed Chaos upon the Middle World the Uz were sorely needed there as well). With every killing the world cracked a bit more.

Part of the Compromise is keeping the is keeping the dead and the living mostly distinct from one another (seen more in Waha's part of the tale than Orlanth's), to the extent possible in the broken world. Combining Death with Truth and Fate, Humakt & Ty Kora Tek sometimes oppose Chaos in order to maintain the Compromised  separation of the worlds, and oppose Chaotic obliteration that destroys victims utterly rather than merely separating them from Life. They're indifferent to it otherwise though.

Zorak Zoran OTOH, combines Death with Disorder, and thus forsakes high-minded principles in favor slaughtering those he HATES! by any means necessary. As good Uz though, he particularly HATES! Chaos and Sky beings - thus his appeal to Arkat.

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I think the Lunar religions are a lot weirder. They are pro-Chaos, yet pretty much all the Chaos cults we have info on are evil. It's not like Malia or Thanatar are the sort of cults you want in your city, even if you are pro-Chaos. Chaos would seem to be a  tough sell if the best  poster child they can come up with is the Crimson Bat.

Imperial Lunar Handbook II (which is oddly coming up left & right this week) has several Lunar cults that (attempt to) engage with Chaos in more constructive fashion than worshipping the Lords of Terror (with varying degrees of success, of course). Not being naive, they also have an order of Law + Eternal Battle wielding inquisitors who protect the people from outbreaks of nastiness, root out non-lluminated Chaos, keep watch over the Risklands, monitor Chaos-wielding cults for excesses, etc. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by JonL

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, JonL said:

Death itself is kind of Chaos adjacent. Things aren't supposed to go back and forth between the Middle World and the Underworld.

This is an odd one, since it seems like "dying" and being restored was a pretty common thing during the Green Age, given the number of sacrifices and rebirths we see there (and presumably during the Golden Age as well). The issue for the Emperor was after all being "separated" *and not coming back*.

IMHO Death in itself is sort-of-Chaos-y, but it's something that's so ingrained into the fabric of the Compromise by now that it would be impossible to remove - sort of like Time (they might be related, conceptually).

Note that the Green/Golden age concept of death-rebirth/reassemblage is clearly distinct from undeath, of course (then again, visitations of the dead doesn't necessarily seem to be Chaotic in itself, as per the Esrolian Necropolis, or Kena Hill.)

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Chaos, in and of itself is a non-issue.

AFAIK Chaos isn't a non-issue for Humakti -- don't they have a special place in the Underworld so that they can train and defend the afterlife from Chaos? I think Humakti dislike Chaos as much as your average person, but it's just that their focus is on death-related issues -- they're single issue voters, so to speak. With Humakt as the guy who kind-of-invented death, it makes sense they consider it super important and dislike anybody who tries to reverse the one cool thing their god did, and everything else is secondary.

The Cult Compendium/Cults of Prax mentions that Chaos creatures can technically be part of the cult if they follow the rules and principles, but I'm not sure how often that happens (the books mention it's pretty rare)... and if it does happen, I'm not even sure Chaos members mix with "normal" members anyway... the rare Humakti Broo and Scorpionman Humakti would probably worship on their own, around some shrine hidden away in a cave.

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I think the Lunar religions are a lot weirder. They are pro-Chaos, yet pretty much all the Chaos cults we have info on are evil.

That seems more straightforward to me -- it's the good old "necessary evil" line of thought. Or the "diseases don't kill people -- people summoning disease spirits on other people do" line of thought. I seems to me that the Lunars are super pragmatic and see Chaotic powers as a tool without inherent intent, and just because some people use it for evil doesn't mean it can't be used for "good".

Plus, some of the Chaos cults justify their existence as a necessary thing in the first place -- for instance, Mallia cultists see their cult as a necessary force under the Compromise in order to regulate the population of mortal races, for those individuals that somehow avoid any other life-ending fate. In some ways, Mallia is a lot more useful to the world than, say Maran Gor, who somehow isn't considered "evil" even given all the fucked up thing she does (double standard much? Just because she's related to Ernalda?). So... yeah, it's just stigma against Mallia because people are grossed out by pus and vomit and diarrhea, man!  

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, JonL said:

Death itself is kind of Chaos adjacent. Things aren't supposed to go back and forth between the Middle World and the Underworld. Eurmal found the Sword that is Death in the deepest hells, not coincidentally where the Chaosium itself lies. Eurmal should not have gone to the Underworld. Eurmal should not have brought Death back. Killing Grandfather Mortal broke all the Man Rune beings. Killing Yelm not only wrongly sent his Fire & Light to the place that should be Dark & Cold, it deprived the Middle World of his sustaining Stasis as well, making things even less stable. Bjiff's arrival below drove the Uz to the Middle World and unleashed their hunger upon the living things rather than keeping things in balance by eating bad things that emerge from the Chaosium like the good and proper cosmic immune system they were (though when the Unholy Trio unleashed Chaos upon the Middle World the Uz were sorely needed there as well). With every killing the world cracked a bit more.

Part of the Compromise is keeping the is keeping the dead and the living mostly distinct from one another (seen more in Waha's part of the tale than Orlanth's), to the extent possible in the broken world. Combining Death with Truth and Fate, Humakt & Ty Kora Tek sometimes oppose Chaos in order to maintain the Compromised  separation of the worlds, and oppose Chaotic obliteration that destroys victims utterly rather than merely separating them from Life. They're indifferent to it otherwise though.

Yup. Basically Humakt sort of has to accept Chaos as he accepts  Death. 

 

1 hour ago, JonL said:

Imperial Lunar Handbook II (which is oddly coming up left & right this week) has several Lunar cults that (attempt to) engage with Chaos in more constructive fashion than worshipping the Lords of Terror (with varying degrees of success, of course). Not being naive, they also have an order of Law + Eternal Battle wielding inquisitors who protect the people from outbreaks of nastiness, root out non-lluminated Chaos, keep watch over the Risklands, monitor Chaos-wielding cults for excesses, etc. 

Good. That is needed to make Chaos more appealing to the Lunars. I could see  sort artist cults with Chaotic equivalent of muses and such. Chaos really isn't all bad, it just that the only cults we've gotten writeups for so far have been the Cults of Terror.

[Atgxtg]

17 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

AFAIK Chaos isn't a non-issue for Humakti -- don't they have a special place in the Underworld so that they can train and defend the afterlife from Chaos?

I  don't beleive so.

Quote

I think Humakti dislike Chaos as much as your average person, but it's just that their focus is on death-related issues

Probably, but that is more a case of  thier gowing up  in a culture that dislikes Chaos, but Humkti severe ties with it when they become Humakti. I think Humakt himself doesn't care so much about Chaos

Quote

That seems more straightforward to me -- it's the good old "necessary evil" line of thought.

I don't think so. I think it is reall ymore a case of the only Chaos we've seen so far has been bad Chaos. I  mean the only  Chaos cults that are not thoughly evil that we've seenin the game are the Red Goddess, Seven Mothers, Crimsom Bat, and Nysalor. There are probably Chaos cults for muscians, artists, engineers and inventors that show off some of t he  benefits of Chaos that we just haven';t seen yet. 

Quote

Plus, some of the Chaos cults justify their existence as a necessary thing in the first place -- for instance, Mallia cultists see their cult as a necessary force under the Compromise in order to regulate the population of mortal races, for those individuals that somehow avoid any other life-ending fate. In some ways, Mallia is a lot more useful to the world than, say Maran Gor, who somehow isn't considered "evil" even given all the fucked up thing she does (double standard much? Just because she's related to Ernalda?). So... yeah, it's just stigma against Mallia because people are grossed out by pus and vomit and diarrhea, man!  

Of the cults  no doubt justified their own existence, but that doesn't mean they are accepted by others. I doubt the cults of Mallia, Thanatar  and Vivamort are practiced openly even in Lunar territory.vEven the Lunars view places like Dorastor as a nightmare.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Atgxtg

[Lordabdul]

9 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I  don't beleive so.

I went to check in the Cults Compendium, and it says:

The worshippers of the cult can look forward to a special section of Hell reserved for them to practice their and prepare for the Final Days, or at least the next full-scale War of the Gods. By doing this they also protect Hell from in-roads by Chaos. Humakt worshippers are never Resurrected.

I don't know if that's still canon though.

Edited December 19, 2019 by lordabdul

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

I went to check in the Cults Compendium, and it says:

The worshippers of the cult can look forward to a special section of Hell reserved for them to practice their and prepare for the Final Days, or at least the next full-scale War of the Gods. By doing this they also protect Hell from in-roads by Chaos. Humakt worshippers are never Resurrected.

I don't know if that's still canon though.

Odd that they fight to defend Hell from Chaos but don't do the same for the lands of the living. 

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, JonL said:

 

Imperial Lunar Handbook II (which is oddly coming up left & right this week) has several Lunar cults that (attempt to) engage with Chaos in more constructive fashion than worshipping the Lords of Terror (with varying degrees of success, of course). Not being naive, they also have an order of Law + Eternal Battle wielding inquisitors who protect the people from outbreaks of nastiness, root out non-lluminated Chaos, keep watch over the Risklands, monitor Chaos-wielding cults for excesses, etc. 

Except the the ILH-2 anti-chaos inquisitor cult is terrible and unnecessary..  

[Eff]

 

-An Etyries priestess gives a speech explaining the particulars of the Lunar Way's approach to Chaos, sometime during the 6th Wane. 

 

More generally, Sedenya's transcendence occurred at the deepest levels of the Underworld, right about where the Chaosium would be. So in a sense, the Lunar Way is probably animated in its attitude towards Chaos by the sincere, honest, and absolutely Truthful knowledge that Chaos is essential for the continued existence of Glorantha. As such, since we cannot get rid of it, we need to make it ours. 

But this may just be an allegorical statement- it is enough to understand that the Lunar Way is a pathway whereby the Many can become One, and this must necessarily include Chaotic things, which are part of the Many. 

And of course, other mystically enlightened beings seem somewhat indifferent to Chaos- dragons, Metsyla, etc. 

 

Which is to say that the closest things to inquisitors in the Empire, the Lunar Examiners, are going to be examining you for your ability to embrace Chaos and give that walktapus a big warm hug, rather than guarding against Chaos. 

[JonL]

My people understand that fire has an important place in our world. We cook our meals and hear our homes with it. We burn fuel by the gallon to get around town. We make candles & smoke part of our religious observances, and launch fireworks for fun. Nobody thinks it's evil or wrong.

For all that, we nonetheless maintain a professional corps of dedicated firefighters ready to go at a moments notice.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[metcalph]

57 minutes ago, JonL said:

My people understand that fire has an important place in our world. We cook our meals and hear our homes with it. We burn fuel by the gallon to get around town. We make candles & smoke part of our religious observances, and launch fireworks for fun. Nobody thinks it's evil or wrong.

For all that, we nonetheless maintain a professional corps of dedicated firefighters ready to go at a moments notice.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There's a difference between having firefighters and having an anchronistic spanish inquisition fighting chaos.  Whoever was writing that cult was seriously dumbing down the importance of Chaos  to the Lunar Way.  You mentioned Riskland before.  The Orlanthi are doing a good job of combatting chaos there.  Why does the Empire need chaos-fighters there?

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Eff said:

More generally, Sedenya's transcendence occurred at the deepest levels of the Underworld, right about where the Chaosium would be. So in a sense, the Lunar Way is probably animated in its attitude towards Chaos by the sincere, honest, and absolutely Truthful knowledge that Chaos is essential for the continued existence of Glorantha. As such, since we cannot get rid of it, we need to make it ours. 

 

53 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There's a difference between having firefighters and having an anchronistic spanish inquisition fighting chaos.  Whoever was writing that cult was seriously dumbing down the importance of Chaos  to the Lunar Way ...

The fundamental flaw in such philosophies is the belief that Chaos is encompassed by Illumination, or can continue to be contained, constrained, or directed by it.

Chaos -- eventually -- will become the entirety of the Lunar Way, rather than a part of the Many that is One.

Right now, Sedenya seems to have Chaos under control.  The Bat comes and goes on command, etc.  But it won't last, cannot last.

Illumination can expand to encompass all of Glorantha, from the Sky Dome down to the deepest Underworld, the Middle World to the Otherworlds.  But so too can Chaos... and much, much more.  Sedenya only stood at the doorway; what is Without that door is further beyond Her than She herself is beyond a child in the streets of Glamour.

Something will come through from Outside, and it will prove Sedenya's error; very possibly, destroying Glorantha in doing so.

It's entirely possible that this "something" already has come through, and simply hasn't yet proved itself ...

 

[Eff]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

 

The fundamental flaw in such philosophies is the belief that Chaos is encompassed by Illumination, or can continue to be contained, constrained, or directed by it.

Chaos -- eventually -- will become the entirety of the Lunar Way, rather than a part of the Many that is One.

Right now, Sedenya seems to have Chaos under control.  The Bat comes and goes on command, etc.  But it won't last, cannot last.

Illumination can expand to encompass all of Glorantha, from the Sky Dome down to the deepest Underworld, the Middle World to the Otherworlds.  But so too can Chaos... and much, much more.  Sedenya only stood at the doorway; what is Without that door is further beyond Her than She herself is beyond a child in the streets of Glamour.

Something will come through from Outside, and it will prove Sedenya's error; very possibly, destroying Glorantha in doing so.

It's entirely possible that this "something" already has come through, and simply hasn't yet proved itself ...

 

Well, not to be overly puckish, but if Sedenya makes any mistakes, (and assuredly She does, and corrects them too, for things must turn), then her biggest one, judging from the Guide, is doing too much to hold the world together, allowing parasites like the Blood Sun to profit off of Her glory and light. 

But as for things coming through, well, yes, that's Taraltara the unknowable, her foot and leg coming down and resting upon Sedenya her footstool. 

[ve4grm]

Well, this has gotten well beyond my familiarity with Glorantha. As far as my initial question goes, we've come to a solution wherein the ZZ is actually an incarnation of Zolan Zubar, who doesn't have the Disorder rune like Zorak Zoran, and doesn't work with undead. Instead, anything he summons will be Darkness spirits and ancestor spirits.

So we'll still clash on many things, but not the big one.

Thanks for your help, everyone! I got way more response than I expected.

Please continue the philosophical debate!

Edited December 20, 2019 by ve4grm

[Sir_Godspeed]

32 minutes ago, ve4grm said:

Well, this has gotten well beyond my familiarity with Glorantha.

Don't worry, that's pretty par for the course for most of us.

[soltakss]

On 12/15/2019 at 10:09 PM, Kloster said:

You're right. My mistake. I should have checked before (I have part of my RQIII books closer).

No problem. We all remember things from years ago that we are sure are right, until someone goes and checks the facts.

On 12/15/2019 at 10:48 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Humakt also hates Eurmal for stealing Death.  By extension, does he hate the Lightbringers?

Slightly different, as the Lightbringers are not worshipped in a single cult, but the seven Mothers are. i think that Humakt would be Neutral to The Lightbringers as a Cult, because he is Enemy to Eurmal and Friendly to Orlanth.

On 12/16/2019 at 12:01 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Really?  After the party kills a couple of Lunar scouts the troll throws them into a pot with some herbs and PO-TA-TOES and makes stew, and that's "no issue"?

Humakti have this silly notion of "Honour the Fallen", so would probably frown on this. Most mixed parties have rules, or at least guidelines about this. "Derak the Dark Troll, the aforementioned Zorak Zoran Death Lord, was adventuring with a dwarven Humakti who had a Godling Bone, which meant that his spirit did not actually travel the Path of the Dead if he was slain, so he could be resurrected, well, he was a bit crap and was resurrected so often that he had a handle built into his hauberk. One day, we has put back into the Godling Bone and Derak offered to carry him back, as he was only a little dwarf. On the way back to the Chalana Arroy Temple, the party heard Derak munching away on some snacks and thought nothing of it, but this kept happening again and again, until one of the Humakti realised that Derak did not have any trail rations and was eating the Humakti's fingers. he said it was fine, as he had Regrow Limb."

On 12/16/2019 at 12:01 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And Arkat becoming a Troll is another sore point.  Only Enlightenment protected him from Divine Retribution from Humakt.  Your arguments are weak.

Every worshipper of Arkat knows that they worship the part of Arkat where he was Good and not the next part, where he was Bad. So, Arkat Humaktsson was Good but Arkat the Knight worshippers think that Arkat Humaktsson was Bad, as he abandoned the Malkioni Way. Similarly, worshippers of Zorak Arkat think that Black Arkat was Bad as he abandoned the destruction of Chaos.

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, soltakss said:

On 12/15/2019 at 3:09 PM, Kloster said:

You're right. My mistake. I should have checked before (I have part of my RQIII books closer).

No problem. We all remember things from years ago that we are sure are right, until someone goes and checks the facts.

and the nicer we react, the nicer the Forums will be! Well done soltakss and Kloster for this fine example. 

[Glorion]

On 12/15/2019 at 11:58 AM, Joerg said:

IMO this isn't any worse than having a Grazer Yelm worshiper or a Yelmalian in the same party as a Storm worshiper. Or a Seven Mothers cultist and a Storm Bull or Orlanth initiate.

Both Orlanth's Camp and the Lunar Way provide precedents for inclusion of enemies.

Zorak Zoran was the primary War God of the Second Council - a predominantly human organisation.

Problems will occur when the Zorak Zorani reanimates a fallen companion or minion as a zombie (in order to honor the dead, btw). But something like that is a roleplaying opportunity rather than an impossible situation.

IMHO that's wrong, the hostility there is actually much deeper than mutual Orlanth/Yelm hostility, and indeed even than Orlanth/Lunar hostility, as long as the Lunars in question don't have chaos features or something. Sometimes in sheer desperation someone can ally with extreme cult enemies, such as Praxian Storm Bulls hiring broos to fight Lunars, plan being to kill the broos if possible as soon as the immediate danger is over. So you can have a Humakhti and a Zorak Zorani in the same party if the plan is for the Humakhti to try to kill the Zorak Zorani as soon as the quest is won. The ZZ's would not necessarily feel the same way however. But there is one very simple way that they can be in the same party. Humakhti himself is Illuminated, so a really high level Humakhti could be Illuminated too. As for the Second Council, they were planning to raise the God of Illumination, so probably most of its leaders were Illuminated, and made their followers go along with things they hated. One reason why it broke up.

 

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, Glorion said:

IMHO that's wrong, the hostility there is actually much deeper than mutual Orlanth/Yelm hostility, and indeed even than Orlanth/Lunar hostility, as long as the Lunars in question don't have chaos features or something.

How so, and why, if I may ask?

Death is a shared power and an immensurable realm in the Underworld. Besides Humakt and Zorak Zoran, there is Shargash/Tolat as only one of many other masters of Death.

Zorak Zoran is a lot less of an enemy of Humakt than are Mal(l)ia, Ikadz, or Thanatar. In fact, he is an ally against each of these foes who pervert the power of Death, possibly least vs. Mallia.

Humakt is not really a chaos fighter, either - Humakti and Telmori respect each other as bringers of Death and Darkness. They are rivals, true.

As far as I am concerned, a Humakti will cooperate with Zorak Zorani or Telmori if his sworn leader or employer asks them to.

Also, both Humakt and Zorak Zoran share Arkat as a cult hero or subcult.

 

The rulership over the Middle Sky on the other hand cannot be shared as there is only one top position available. Yelm and Sedenya have arranged themselves through the Red Emperor as their shared avatar. There is no such possibility of jointly governing the Middle Sky between Moon and Storm within Gloranthan history or myth, yet.

The Hero Wars might transmute both Old Storm and Old Moon into something new which might unite those opposed forces, but right now these two religions (not just cults) are at loggerheads for domination of their core realm. Orlanth's great victory in the Chaos Wars was that he liberated the skies from Chaos - his only major achievement fighting against Chaos. There are a few minor victories of his, like the fight against the Lesser Kajabori where he aided Darkness, but otherwise, Orlanth's resume as a chaos fighter is about on par with Genert's - "will man up and stand in its way until almost completely destroyed."

 

Quote

Sometimes in sheer desperation someone can ally with extreme cult enemies, such as Praxian Storm Bulls hiring broos to fight Lunars, plan being to kill the broos if possible as soon as the immediate danger is over.

That comparison is about as disturbingly wrong to me as it can get.

Humakt has his own personal foe, that later became chaotic - that's Vivamort, earlier on known as Nontraya. Storm Bulls sending in broos is about the same as Humakti sending in Vivamorti.

Quote

So you can have a Humakhti and a Zorak Zorani in the same party if the plan is for the Humakhti to try to kill the Zorak Zorani as soon as the quest is won.

YGWV. Martin Laurie's Onslaught (look up the digest archives for his stories) would feel right at home among a bunch of Zorak Zorani as long as they refrain from raising the dead or parading their undead in his presence. So would any Lead Cross heroquester.

 

Why do you spell the cult "Humakht", btw?

Quote

The ZZ's would not necessarily feel the same way however. But there is one very simple way that they can be in the same party.

 

Quote

Humakhti himself is Illuminated, so a really high level Humakhti could be Illuminated too.

That's not proven in any way.

The relevant quote from the Sourcebook p.120 (repeating the original statement in Wyrm's Footnotes):

Quote

a few seem to have been fortified, such as Humakt and Uleria.

Seem to have is the key phrase here. Hearsay or a guess, at best.

 

Quote

As for the Second Council, they were planning to raise the God of Illumination, so probably most of its leaders were Illuminated, and made their followers go along with things they hated. One reason why it broke up.

The Second Council were definitely not (yet) illuminated, at least not in the Nysalorean (Arkati) way that you are postulating here.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Joerg
finished editing after the office feline sent this off prematurely