How do Passions affect Illuminated characters?

[Brootse]

1.) Do they get normal Passion rolls?

2.) Do they lose Honor if they break oaths?

[metcalph]

There's no reason they shouldn't get normal passion rolls AFAIK.

Honor is social knowledge rather than divine favour so yes, an illuminate would lose honor.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There's no reason they shouldn't get normal passion rolls AFAIK.

Honor is social knowledge rather than divine favour so yes, an illuminate would lose honor.

Correct as to both. Illuminated characters use passions normally, although they can use their Illumination skill to overcome their own Passions.

[Videopete]

The real question is the how illumination affects the runes.

[Brootse]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Correct as to both. Illuminated characters use passions normally, although they can use their Illumination skill to overcome their own Passions.

Check.

3.) Does breaking a geas count as oath breaking?

[Mirza]

I am inclined to think that they have normal passion roles, and here's why.

Thinking of the example in the HQ:G book about how Samastina had to overcome her own Illumination to prevent herself from suggesting that Nochet ally with the Scorpion Queen against the Lunars might be a useful example. In that Samastina has the Ambitious characteristic with the specific desire of (wants to be Queen) that she uses as a opposed roll against her own Illumination which is tied to her Earth Rune.

If we were to translate that to RQ terms Samastina's characteristic might be thought of as a Desire (wants to be Queen) Passion that she then uses to overcome her illumination. But leaves the minor problem of how then to model Illumination in RQ, is it tied to her highest elemental rune with an opposed roll? Or is it treated as a more basic percentile roll with negative modifiers on the passion or rune used to oppose it?

In the matter of Honor for breaking oaths, it depends, does anyone else know? Humakt doesn't count in this matter since it's illumination. If no one does save the person themselves, I'd say no, if someone else does then yes.

[Jeff]

21 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Check.

3.) Does breaking a geas count as oath breaking?

Here's what the section in the Cults book says:

"Cult restrictions on particular individuals can be ignored by some Illuminates without retribution from the god. For instance, an Illuminated Kyger Litor worshiper may learn and cast the spell of Fireblade or an Illuminated Orlanth initiate may join the Seven Mothers cult, although doing so may have an impact on such Passions as Devotion. An Illuminate would still have to gain a Humakti gift or become a shaman through the usual route. However, once the Illuminate gained a Humakti gift (for instance), he could freely ignore the associated geas with no ill effects besides the disfavor of others of his cult and any loss of Honor and Devotion that comes with oath-breaking."

[Brootse]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Here's what the section in the Cults book says:

"Cult restrictions on particular individuals can be ignored by some Illuminates without retribution from the god. For instance, an Illuminated Kyger Litor worshiper may learn and cast the spell of Fireblade or an Illuminated Orlanth initiate may join the Seven Mothers cult, although doing so may have an impact on such Passions as Devotion. An Illuminate would still have to gain a Humakti gift or become a shaman through the usual route. However, once the Illuminate gained a Humakti gift (for instance), he could freely ignore the associated geas with no ill effects besides the disfavor of others of his cult and any loss of Honor and Devotion that comes with oath-breaking."

Thanks for the answers, that clears a few things I had pondered about lately.

[Brootse]

Do you still get percentages to the Illumination skill from answering to the Riddles?

[Videopete]

I get the feeling that illumination decouples runes from eachother. Resulting in some one able to do things like master both life and death runes with out one decreasing the other. Ypu would seem mad to others but, ypu no longer percieve things as being exclusive of one anouther.

[Richard S.]

If Illumination allows you to unlink power runes then that means gods such as Yelm and the Seven Mothers require Illumination to effectively use all their magic. Quite appropriate I think.

[Richard S.]

6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

BTW, how come Heortlings don't start with any "Hate Chaos" passion???

Most likely because they only wanted 3 passions per culture. Also chaos, while the greatest enemy, probably isn't common enough in Sartar or Heortland for most people in the culture to have actually experienced it and thus develop a proper hatred for it.

[Joerg]

44 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

It's very clear that the "Hate Chaos" Passion is negated by Illumination.  BTW, how come Heortlings don't start with any "Hate Chaos" passion???

The mindless rage that a Storm Bull cultist feels against Chaos is negated. Oddi the Keen may have been extremely hard struck by his illumination, but I think it is still possible to work up that passion - consciously.

I wonder how much Illumination will push a character from Beast towards Human, as the instinctive reaction will be hampered by insight, too.

 

44 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As for any other passions, I'd make a small change: the player "must try to use their Illumination skill to overcome their own Passions."

In order to trigger them, or in order to avoid being triggered by them?

[Akhôrahil]

14 hours ago, metcalph said:

Honor is social knowledge rather than divine favour so yes, an illuminate would lose honor.

Actually, this is something I've been thinking about. Is Honor your personal sense of honor, so that what matters is what you yourself know you did. Or is it "honor" as in "honor culture", where the question of your conscience or even what actually happened is completely irrelevant, and what matters is what people believe about you?  

Now, either way an Illuminate who has Honor would take hits to it. But if it's a question of personal conscience, I would imagine that a lot of Illuminates  would lose the passion as they realize it's just an arbitrary social construct.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

BTW, how come Heortlings don't start with any "Hate Chaos" passion???

Massively disliking something and actually letting your actions be guided by it in sometimes dangerous situations are different things.

Now, what feel really strange going by older versions of the game is that not most everyone have Fear Chaos. I'm reminded of the HQ Clan generator that could result in Fear Dragons, Fear Dragons, Fear Dragons, or Hate And Fear Dragons. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

how come Heortlings don't start with any "Hate Chaos" passion???

They undoubtedly do Hate Chaos and Fear Chaos, but not sufficient to hit the 60% mark for either where it's considered noteworthy.

If you were developing more of the full clan and wanted to add specific clan-related passions, these might be among them, particularly for those nearest Snakepipe Hollow or down south near Larnste's Footprint.  The Lismelder and the Dinacoli would likely get either Hate or Fear Undead.

More typically though it will be an encounter/event that triggers it (e.g. your parent was eaten by the Crimson Bat, or killed by Chaos in the Random Cause of Death).

Edited December 17, 2019 by jajagappa

[gochie]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Actually, this is something I've been thinking about. Is Honor your personal sense of honor, so that what matters is what you yourself know you did. Or is it "honor" as in "honor culture", where the question of your conscience or even what actually happened is completely irrelevant, and what matters is what people believe about you?  

Now, either way an Illuminate who has Honor would take hits to it. But if it's a question of personal conscience, I would imagine that a lot of Illuminates  would lose the passion as they realize it's just an arbitrary social construct.

I would say it's definitely in the personal sense. Social honor would fall more along the lines of a specific type of reputation imo.

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, gochie said:

I would say it's definitely in the personal sense. Social honor would fall more along the lines of a specific type of reputation imo.

Yes, but not quite Reputation. Infamy also adds to Reputation.

I think the game might benefit from having a characteristic like "Standing", which would also be connected to Ransom.

[PhilHibbs]

18 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

It's very clear that the "Hate Chaos" Passion is negated by Illumination.

I don't think that that is so clear. You can still be an Illuminate and hate chaos. You just don't have to. One of the reasons for hating Chaos is negated by Illumination, but you can still hate it for other reasons.

[davecake]

23 hours ago, Richard S. said:

If Illumination allows you to unlink power runes then that means gods such as Yelm and the Seven Mothers require Illumination to effectively use all their magic.

Bingo.... 

Which means Illumination will always have attractions to adherents of such cults. And it may even indicate Illuminants have even help the cult take its current form. 

On 12/17/2019 at 4:13 PM, Jeff said:

However, once the Illuminate gained a Humakti gift (for instance), he could freely ignore the associated geas with no ill effects besides the disfavor of others of his cult and any loss of Honor and Devotion that comes with oath-breaking.

Which means Illumination will always have attractions to adherents of such cults. And it may even indicate Illuminants have even help the cult take its current form. 

Which says some interesting things about the First Age. We already knew the supporters of Nysalor interfered with the Yelmalio/Lightfore cult, and introduced mystic elements to make it the Daysenarus cult - possibly the reason why only some variants have gifts and geases, a useful thing for mystics. And there is a very obvious candidate for doing the same thing to the Humakt cult... what if the Humakt cult has gifts and geases everywhere because of Arkat? Just a fun little theory. 

Personally I think a guarantee of no consequences at all for breaking a geas is a bit too reliable and powerful. Maybe you lose the gift temporarily or something. But gifts and geases are sure a better deal for Illuminants. 

[Byll]

21 hours ago, gochie said:

On 17 December 2019 at 9:50 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Actually, this is something I've been thinking about. Is Honor your personal sense of honor, so that what matters is what you yourself know you did. Or is it "honor" as in "honor culture", where the question of your conscience or even what actually happened is completely irrelevant, and what matters is what people believe about you?  

Now, either way an Illuminate who has Honor would take hits to it. But if it's a question of personal conscience, I would imagine that a lot of Illuminates  would lose the passion as they realize it's just an arbitrary social construct.

I would say it's definitely in the personal sense. Social honor would fall more along the lines of a specific type of reputation imo.

I'd say the opposite (in the grand tradition of YGWV) a character's Honour rating to my mind measures their coupling into the society's honour culture. Things that people get very uptight about royalty, or footballers doing, they don't turn a hair about musicians and actors doing, some are expected to observe honour restrictions others are not. 

[gochie]

1 hour ago, Byll said:

I'd say the opposite (in the grand tradition of YGWV) a character's Honour rating to my mind measures their coupling into the society's honour culture. Things that people get very uptight about royalty, or footballers doing, they don't turn a hair about musicians and actors doing, some are expected to observe honour restrictions others are not. 

So your Honor varies depending where you are, starting at zero everytime you visit a new place? If someone doesn't know you, they don't know you're honorable... So the stat would be pretty useless in most of Glorantha, and can easily be replaced by Reputation.

I can't look it up in the book right this second, but I believe it's technically considered a passion--which would be part of the character's personality. 

[Brootse]

4 hours ago, gochie said:

So your Honor varies depending where you are, starting at zero everytime you visit a new place? If someone doesn't know you, they don't know you're honorable... So the stat would be pretty useless in most of Glorantha, and can easily be replaced by Reputation.

I can't look it up in the book right this second, but I believe it's technically considered a passion--which would be part of the character's personality. 

Yeah, it's a passion, and it's not how others see you, that's reputation.

[Byll]

Yeah OK, I guess I'm substantially wrong above. It's certainly a passion, and it's something personal in that you carry it with you,  I don't think characters generate their own concepts of honour from first principles though. They buy into a code that is largely predetermined by their warrior culture. If one was brought up to believe that it's OK to work to death enemies who surrendered, one can do it without one's honour suffering. If one was brought up to respect a code governing parole, ransom and surrender then one can't. There's probably a bit of room for an individual to say "I accept the code except for this minor part", but one can't just say "I'm  honourable and my honour lets me do anything as long as I don't step on the cracks between the flagstones" 

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Byll said:

Yeah OK, I guess I'm substantially wrong above. It's certainly a passion, and it's something personal in that you carry it with you,  I don't think characters generate their own concepts of honour from first principles though. They buy into a code that is largely predetermined by their warrior culture. If one was brought up to believe that it's OK to work to death enemies who surrendered, one can do it without one's honour suffering. If one was brought up to respect a code governing parole, ransom and surrender then one can't. There's probably a bit of room for an individual to say "I accept the code except for this minor part", but one can't just say "I'm  honourable and my honour lets me do anything as long as I don't step on the cracks between the flagstones" 

Honor is a personal passion. Page 234 of RQG spells it out pretty clearly.