Elmal?

[metcalph]

54 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

 

Since Elmal is an even smaller, "less important" cult, they should not be markedly better than Yelmalio.  IMO, both cults need improvement to be "competitive" for the more wargaming type players.

You want a competitive Elmali? Go to the Penyans and ask to worship Jolaty.  It will hurt but then you can kick arse from Pelorian to Vormain. 

[Ian Absentia]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

So yes, Yelmalio sucks and I doubt many players will choose it, other than for roleplaying...

Er...right, the very reason I've always been drawn to RQ over other options.  Players seeking optimal character builds may look to other games for satisfaction.  With that in mind, how does Yelmalio stack up in 13G?

!i!

[Akhôrahil]

35 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Er...right, the very reason I've always been drawn to RQ over other options.  Players seeking optimal character builds may look to other games for satisfaction.

I think the big issue is when you can’t do the things the lore suggests you should be good at. Yelmalio is basically Spartan Jesus, which is pretty great, but followers of Yelmalio tend to be geas-driven freaks who can neither particularly fight (which is alright - Yelmalio has a poor track record in that respect) nor display any particular endurance or steadfastness compared to other characters (they do have great night vision though).

Bad Rune Magic wasn’t necessarily a huge deal in earlier editions, but in RQG, it’s a killer. And upsides like 90% in a weapon matters less when most any new character can have it.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

I think... Most people new to the game and actually thought about the role of cults and community etc (as RQ is supposed to be about, largely) would be a bit baffled as to why that big hot ball in the sky that's great to be out in during the summer, and is so important to an agricultural society like the Orlanthi.for making the crops grow, don't worship it for the life-giving powers it's so obviously has. 

I believe it was Greg who pondered this extremely obvious question, and I'm now asking it again... Who is the Orlanthi god of the bright, hot, firey thing in the sky, that any sensible person should be giving thanks to? (Not just the slightly bright cold thing at night )

The Orlanthi have numerous gods for agriculture, so it really is odd and out of place. Barntar is important. Ernalda is important. Heler is important... Not the actual sun. 

If that is supposed to be Elmal, how do the adequately explain his lack of fire powers given that the sun gives off heat (still).

If it's not Elmal, then at the very least, I'd expect some form of Yelm worship.

[Lordabdul]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

By the late First Age, Elmal the Sun had already given way to Yelm the Sun, and Elmal was left with his Lightfore horse.

I'm not sure how Elmal got demoted like this when he could have been just as well "discovered" to be a sub-cult/aspect of Yelm instead of Yelmalio. Greg's article about this (like someone other people here) led me to believe Elmal was the bright sun disk god of the Orlanthi, not a little/cold sun. Oh well, I'm lucky enough to be an RQG newcomer so I don't have a yu-kargzant in this race...

What I'm more worried about is how to handle all those cults of vastly different power and usefulness as a GM. I understand that cults aren't supposed to be "character classes" so they're not meant to be "balanced", but players are still going to be annoyed at this unless there's some guidance and management of expectations written somewhere, so that they know what they're getting into when they create their character. I find that this problem already creeps up a bit with the default RQG cults.

 

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

@Akhôrahil Excellent points that Rune Magic is much more important in RQG.  We had a big Yelmalio group in RQ2 and hardly used any.  (Lightwall and tactical smarts for the win).

Cults with poor Rune Magic tend to get to settle for dispelling duties these days. It’s not a glorious job.

I thought our group’s Yinkini had dubious Rune Magic, but compared to Yelmalio...

(Meanwhile, it’s so great that Orlanth and Ernalda finally get to shine in the magic department.)

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Cults with poor Rune Magic tend to get to settle for dispelling duties these days. It’s not a glorious job.

I thought our group’s Yinkini had dubious Rune Magic, but compared to Yelmalio...

(Meanwhile, it’s so great that Orlanth and Ernalda finally get to shine in the magic department.)

Yelmalio's Rune spells are very useful if you are trying to fight against the Darkness. Lightning and Thunderbolt are great, but if you can't see your foes, they suck a lot. 

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yelmalio's Rune spells are very useful if you are trying to fight against the Darkness. 

That’s decidedly a minority of fights in most campaigns (including published stuff).

If you’re playing Against the Trolls or something, sure (and even then, I put my money on the ZZ berserker). Otherwise, Yelmalio is not worth calling a warrior cult.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

That’s decidedly a minority of fights in most campaigns (including published stuff).

If you’re playing Against the Trolls or something, sure (and even then, I put my money on the ZZ berserker). Otherwise, Yelmalio is not worth calling a warrior cult.

These cults don't exist or survive because they are useful for fights in published scenarios. That's not how Greg or I ever approached them. They are part of the setting - why Yelmalio exists. It is up to individual players to decide whether that is a cult they want to explore in play. For some, the answer is hell yes. For others, the answer is that cult sucks. And that's fine.

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Otherwise, Yelmalio is not worth calling a warrior cult.

He is however an excellent soldier cult (and has been described as such since Cults of Prax) that does wicked phalanxes.  That a hoplite does not do well fighting by himself makes Yelmalio an inferior cult for PCs but it does not make him a useless cult for gloranthans.  After all a hoplite fighting in a phalanx will have a longer life expectancy than most PCs.

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

He is however an excellent soldier cult (and has been described as such since Cults of Prax) that does wicked phalanxes.  That a hoplite does not do well fighting by himself makes Yelmalio an inferior cult for PCs but it does not make him a useless cult for gloranthans.  After all a hoplite fighting in a phalanx will have a longer life expectancy than most PCs.

I think that's fair. Smaller Rune pools for the rank and file means the poor Rune magic doesn't hurt so much.

But being useless to PCs kinda is a problem, though.

[metcalph]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

But being useless to PCs kinda is a problem, though.

Even since Cults of Prax the Cults have been unequal for PCs.  Waha is only allowed one point of healing which hampers his worshippers in a fight (which was worse in RQ2 since they didn't have easy access to Heal Wound).  Cults are intentionally unequal and that they are unsuitable for PCs is not a problem..

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

These cults don't exist or survive because they are useful for fights in published scenarios. That's not how Greg or I ever approached them. They are part of the setting - why Yelmalio exists. It is up to individual players to decide whether that is a cult they want to explore in play. For some, the answer is hell yes. For others, the answer is that cult sucks. And that's fine.

Alright, but since one of the things about Yelmalio is persevering and holding out, wouldn't it be good if there were magics supporting that kind of thing in the cult? Being able to see in the dark can be nice at times, but it's not very mythically resonant. Some kind of "staying power" or "survive" or "getting up after a beatdown" magics would help to sell the premise. With most other cults, you do get the powers that make you feel like a part of your god. With Yelmalio, I don't think you do.

(Also, some kind of magic for formation fighting would be excellent. Humakt has an astonishingly good unit buff in the Morale spell, but Yelmalio doesn't get anything there either.) 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Alright, but since one of the things about Yelmalio is persevering and holding out, wouldn't it be good if there were magics supporting that kind of thing in the cult? Being able to see in the dark can be nice at times, but it's not very mythically resonant.

That's what the gifts and geases for.

Edit: Yelmalio's magics sucks compared to others because he lost the good magics when he lost his heat.

Edited January 22, 2020 by metcalph

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, metcalph said:

That's what the gifts and geases for.  

I don't see how most of them do that to any significant extent. Sure, you can talk to birds and horses, but...

What I would like to see is magic (or gifts) supporting the core Yelmalio tenets, like purification and survival in the face of your enemies. As a random example, a gift where you die at negative Con HP rather than 0 HP would really support the premise.

(By the way, what's the rationale for the higher Rune Point demands for Yelmalio rune level offices? 10 Rune points is a lot these days.)

[French Desperate WindChild]

In a "fighting" scenario, how many opponents are facing players, how many times ?

I mean, ok, against barbarians, a Yelmalio is a little bit poor with rune magic, in one fight, compared to Orlanth adventurous or Humakt rune magic.

 

But after 2 fights by day, how many rune magic can be still used ?

And just in a battle, after the first "burn rune magic 15 minutes" do you think that yelmalio will not able to fight like others (maybe more then) ? And Elmal shield will protect like others during these 15min

What if the adventure is a 2 weeks travel in dorastor / prax or I don't know, field where you will find many many opponents who will charge on sight ?

If I had to optimize a warrior creation, I m not sure that the every time bonus given by Yelmalio are less good than few time greater bonus from other gods. I would focus on n x 100%skill + 5 bladsharp + iron + matrix + ... than on one very efficient but just one time effect. And Yelmalio can give you a greater "n" (bow master gift, lance master gift, ...) than others gods

 

My feeling, (now, maybe in opposition with the crowd) is rune magic is less powerful for good level character (and in RQG new pc are already good level character) than shaman magic+power.

 

[Akhôrahil]

15 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

If I had to optimize a warrior creation, I m not sure that the every time bonus given by Yelmalio are less good than few time greater bonus from other gods. I would focus on n x 100%skill + 5 bladsharp + iron + matrix + ... than on one very efficient but just one time effect. And Yelmalio can give you a greater "n" (bow master gift, lance master gift, ...) than others gods

If you want to optimize a warrior, it's Humakt all the way. Yelmalio isn't even close.

The good thing about Rune Magic is that it allows you to turn yourself up to 11 when necessary - when you would otherwise just lose. Just having Shield (like Waha) is perfectly fine (Shield is amazing and goes a very long way on its own) - but Yelmalio has appalling combat magic. You get better combat magic out of Ernalda. (Yes, that's right - if Yelmalio culture had the women fight instead of the men, that would give them improved combat magic...)

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Edit: Yelmalio's magics sucks compared to others because he lost the good magics when he lost his heat.

But couldn't he have gotten something good as a replacement? Yelmalians think the Hill of Gold was a Good Thing, after all, as Yelmalio survived and proved his purity in the face of enemies and defeat (otherwise, it wouldn't be heroquested). Doesn't that count for anything?

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

But couldn't he have gotten something good as a replacement? Yelmalians think the Hill of Gold was a Good Thing, after all, as Yelmalio survived and proved his purity in the face of enemies and defeat (otherwise, it wouldn't be heroquested). Doesn't that count for anything?

Yelmalions think the Hill of Gold was a good thing for the same reason that Christians think the Crucifixion was a good thing.  Yelmalio isn't going to change to please the likes of people who think he should have good magic.

[Akhôrahil]

18 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Yelmalions think the Hill of Gold was a good thing for the same reason that Christians think the Crucifixion was a good thing.  Yelmalio isn't going to change to please the likes of people who think he should have good magic.

I merely think he should have the kind of magic that corresponds to his actual myths. Yelmalio doesn't have to provide spectacular combat magics, but I think he  should provide the kinds of magics that will let his followers emulate him. That's what most other gods do - the follower gets to do the kinds of things the god did, and in Yelmalio's case, that's survival and purity.

[Godweyn]

Let’s see... personally I always understood the myth of Yelmalio and Elmal as one, since the article of the many suns. Glorantha is a massive puzzle of histories interconnected that only the god learners try to complete with some succeed.
My point, this is a great opportunity!

I always fantasized with the yet to complete story, in the Orlanthi myth, Orlanth resurface to the world and throw the powers of the sun, or the light, to his thane in Kero Fin in form of a torch, in others Arachne Solara give him the Stallion to mount. I always interpret all this like Orlanth travel to hell for the sun, yes, but maybe not for Yelm himself, maybe only for the powers that made the world work, and when he succeeds, he gives them to his loyal thane, to the light in the darkness to manage, because there was nobody more trustworthy of he.
So Yelmalio/Elmal mount, supervise, control, whatever you like to call it, the disc in the day, and stand guard for the world in the night.
I always like the idea that this is part of a myth still to be discovered, a hell of a heroquest, an end of campaign, and maybe a reinterpretation of the "hill of gold" and "guards the stead" events, that again maybe are only one gigantic myth, pieces of a puzzle for the sun's destiny.    

And if someone ever complete this crazy epic journey and survive, and after that many other start to do the same, and really believe in it then, and only then, may be a reason to give Yelmalio the powers he deserves.

One of my favorites crazy campaign ideas.
Meanwhile he doesn’t need nothing of that, and I don’t think that he cares about it, like someone already say, he is Spartan Jesus!

[Tindalos]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I believe it was Greg who pondered this extremely obvious question, and I'm now asking it again... Who is the Orlanthi god of the bright, hot, firey thing in the sky, that any sensible person should be giving thanks to? (Not just the slightly bright cold thing at night )

The answer given in Cults of Prax (which I'm pretty sure was before Lightfore had been revealed to most folk) was that to mountain dwelling people like the Orlanthi, the sun was a source of light but not heat; and Yelmalio was only not associated with the sun in lowland places (like Peloria) where the sky itself was seen as the source of light.

To make it worse, Lightfore is sometimes the son of Pole Star (as seen in the Gloranthan Sourcebook), so you know, even more fun there.

[Ali the Helering]

If you really wanted to justify the Heortling lack of a genuine sun god - which I don't - at a stretch you could take it back to rejection of Nysalor. 

I still think it a highly suspect decision, though.  Elmal serves a real purpose as he is, and this great leap backwards does not 😕

[Akhôrahil]

33 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Elmal serves a real purpose as he is, and this great leap backwards does not 😕

I believe it's all a test to see how steadfast the Elmal fans are.

[Darius West]

22 hours ago, Jeff said:

Elmal lost his fire magic being repeatedly defeated, cut-up, robbed, etc., defending "the Stead" (AKA the Hill of Gold). He has no more Fire Magic than Elmal.

Nope, he gave of his tears... which removed even more water from him, thus reinforcing his fire magic.  The Hill of Gold is a very different Hero Quest and has nothing to do with Elmal, as Elmal is a loyal thane who never fought Orlanth, while Yelmalio isn't a loyal thane and definitely did fight Orlanth.  I would argue that they shouldn't even have the same runes.  Elmal should be Fire and Stasis, while Yelmalion is Light and Truth.  Elmal is a boondocks Orlanthi idea of the Sun, i.e. very welcome but kept in its proper place as inferior to the Storms that batter the neighbourhood.  I certainly wouldn't expect Elmal to have hoplite tactics, or Sunspear, or even Gifts and Geases, but the pay-off for that is spirit magic fire spells.   This mirrors the very different experiences of the tribes that originally worshipped this deity.  One crew became civilized, the other, less so.  In short, stop trying to monomyth Elmal into Yelmalio, you God Learner; regional variation is very important.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Darius West