Elmal?

[Joerg]

Rural tribal Yelmalians:

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Once you take away the hoplite thing, they aren't much of a thing.

They are in Dykene and Elkoi (admittedly not Orlanthi places), and in New Pavis and used to be in Old Pavis (there as elf friends).

Agriculturally, their Cloud Clear is valuable in certain circumstances.

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Which is why I want to beef up Elmal just a little. But you also miss out on a lot of good magic - you aren't going to get that useful associated cult magic from Yelm if you live amongst a bunch of Orlanthi.

True, the presence of distant Yelm may be hard to invoke outside of the Sun Dome temples or at least minor Yelmalio temples where Yelm has priests and receives worship. That goes for the Lunar provinces, too - I don't think that the shrine to the Red Emperor in tribal Seven Mothers temples will be sufficient to give access to Shield or Sunspear.

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My error. I was thinking of the Dolutha, who of course are Cinsina. I don't think the Dinacoli seem to have a lot of Yelmalio worshippers though. 

I thought that all those flat lands near the Dragonewt Wilds lend themselves to horse-riding cattle herders, and hence to a significant rider class of potential Yelmalio worshipers. There are trollkin and ghouls to deal with in the east, another good reason to have Yelmalio worshipers.

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Well, declaring any reference you don't like to be in error is one way to argue, I guess. Do you have a source for your viewpoint? 

Jeff's recent comment to the effect that the Far Place tribes immigrated with Yelmalio as their cold sun god, and Greg's quite clear statement of affairs from 23 years ago.

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/GloranthaDigest/vol01/1990.html

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I think Yelmalian doctrine has adapted to local conditions, and has included peltasts, massed archers, etc.

I was wondering about the peltasts recruited in Sylila and the Provinces, too. The Silver Shields are presented as a Lunar unit, but the recruits would have come from hill barbarian lands. Peltasts come in all degrees from mostly irregular skirmishers with the distinctive shield to ersatz-line regiments with javelins, the distinctive shield and spears and side-arms. In the absence of nearby hoplites, I can see some sort of ersatz-line regiment peltast force being fielded from tribal Yelmalians. Harvar Ironfist's infantry forces may be of this type rather than the standard templar hoplites. On the other hand, where you have fully equipped hoplites in sufficient numbers for phalanx warfare, you will train the servants to act as light skirmishers and back-rank hoplites rather than as independently moving peltast formations.

Massed foot archers are rare in Dragon Pass warfare. The Tarsh exiles have some. The Lunars use Thunder Delta slingers instead, whereas the Sartarites use duck slingers, crossbow-drakes or javelineers.

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Indications are that while the Vaantar Templars have some light cavalry, it isn't in significant numbers. 

Or not deployed separately from the hoplites.

 

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The cult teaches neither spell - while they could pick it up for full price, you have to assume its rare.  Same with Protection, Countermagic, Speedart, Multimissile, Befuddle - almost everything useful, really. 

So which cults in their neighborhood teach those goodies?

The clan temple to Orlanth or the Seven Mothers won't chase any Yelmalian away.

Elf friends can visit the aldryami for bow-enhancing magics, I suppose. The only indication that the bow is a cult weapon is the Kuschile Archery skill the cult teaches.

The Golden Spearman may be a subcult of Yelmalio in some places, or the allied cult Hastatus closer to Dara Happa.

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While you could imagine such effects, there is evidence that they do. Unlike, say, Polaris or Humakt, who have Morale and more. 

But isn't Pole Star an allied cult with shrines in the Yelmalian temples?

Elmal and Rigsdal go hand in hand, too. Now the Orlanthi version of Rigsdal is less of a dance master than Polaris is in the sky myths, but at least the ability to keep the overview is going to come in handy.

 

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We are discussing Yelmalio here, which excels in pointless traditions that get in the way. For example they won't teach you sword, at all, even though its normaly the side arm of a phalangite. Not for Yelmalio though, its giant sarissa and if they get inside your guard you... no idea, actually. Whatever inconvenient traditions the Stonewall phalanxes, the Templars seem to have more.

Yes, at times the Sun Dome Templars come across as comic relief. But then you encounter them on the field of battle.

 

Palangio the Iron Vrok brought lots of efficient magics into the cult of Daysenerus, I expect. Possibly used swords and everything. But then Palangio became anathema to the surviving cult, and many things that might have been associated with Palangio or his association with the Bright Empire were declared taboo.

[White Coke]

So how does Daysenerus differ from Yelmalio? Does he offer different powers or is it mostly a cultural difference like Elmalites being Orlathi vs. Yelmalions being Solar?

[Richard S.]

17 minutes ago, White Coke said:

So how does Daysenerus differ from Yelmalio? Does he offer different powers or is it mostly a cultural difference like Elmalites being Orlathi vs. Yelmalions being Solar?

Probably Daysenerus just emphasized the mystical aspects of Yelmalio. AFAIK the cult was basically the same as Yelmalio's, but when Nysalor revealed him at the Battle of Night and Day the god of the sun comes was named Daysenerus.

[Darius West]

On 1/28/2020 at 3:02 AM, Jeff said:

If Zeus and Jupiter were real and not cultural contructs, they are either the gods of certain phenomena with many names and many aspects in many lands, or they are tribal patrons. 

On the other hand, most people tend to forget the myth about Zeus as the creator of werewolves.  Regional variations matter.  They add depth and flavor to the world.

On 1/28/2020 at 3:02 AM, Jeff said:

Yelmalio is not a mere tribal patron (nor is Orlanth). He is a real deity, with many names (including Elmal, Antirius, Kargzant, etc.). I call him "Yelmalio" in the Cults Book because that what Greg and I normally called him unless were were talking about a local version or variant.

Look, it doesn't matter if they worship the same deity.  I mean ,for example,according to most people God, YHVH and Allah are the same deity, but the level of variance between the regional worship of this same deity is UTTERLY IMMENSE AND IRRECONCILABLE.  A person who worships Yelmalio may see some superficial similarities between his God and Elmal, but then there are the political and cultural dimensions, not to mention the mythological differences.  These things matter.  You can't bundle them together, any more than you can say that Judaism = Islam.  Even if they think they probably worship the same deity, they other guy is always doing it incorrectly.

On 1/28/2020 at 3:02 AM, Jeff said:

You look at GRoY, Entekosiad, etc., and the monomyth is still there. There is a consistent whole to Gloranthan mythology - that's a key part of its appeal. You can see elements of the Weapons Contest in the conflict between Oorsu Sara and Govmeranen. Details differ because the mythic event is being experienced from a different vantage point or with different purposes and priorities. But the framework is still there.

This is a flippant argument.  Yes, the monomyth created a structure to the world's mythology, and that had its origins with the God Learners, as it wasn't understood by the sentient mortal races prior to them as far as we know.  This is not grounds for dismissing the fact that different societies view the same myths differently, and may well have a very distinct local interpretation of what happened.  If you ignore this, we wind up with the goddess switch catastrophe, which is what happens when you refuse to acknowledge or respect the unique local mythological environment.  You are arguing for a god switch.  

[davecake]

On 1/31/2020 at 10:56 PM, Joerg said:

I was wondering about the peltasts recruited in Sylila and the Provinces, too. The Silver Shields are presented as a Lunar unit, but the recruits would have come from hill barbarian lands.

In no way did I mean to imply Yelmalio had some sort of monopoly on peltasts. There are peltast units in pretty much every satrapy and more. I don't think Silver Shields have much to do with Yelmalio, and probably are not even peltasts (Armies and Enemies has them as hypaspist heavy infantry.

On 1/31/2020 at 10:56 PM, Joerg said:

In the absence of nearby hoplites, I can see some sort of ersatz-line regiment peltast force being fielded from tribal Yelmalians.

Probably yes. But they will be very weak units. 

On 1/31/2020 at 10:56 PM, Joerg said:

Harvar Ironfist's infantry forces may be of this type rather than the standard templar hoplites.

If all Harvar Ironfit had was some peltasts with poor magic, he'd be pretty insequential. I think the Vantaros have Templar hoplites. 

On 1/31/2020 at 9:19 PM, Grievous said:

Except that the clan history has them coming from the north as well, over the Creek. So they're still an issue that sticks out.

"The Dolutha descend from the Ferfal Alliance: a triaty of horse-riding clans from Saird to the north of Dragon Pass who drove the Grazer clans from the grasslands along the Creek."
- Coming Storm 

Remember most of the rural tribes of southern Tarsh are still more or less Orlanth worshipping (sshh I mean Barntar). I think there were plenty of Elmal worshippers among them - at least before Monrogh, which happened in living memory. 

On 1/31/2020 at 10:56 PM, Joerg said:

Massed foot archers are rare in Dragon Pass warfare. The Tarsh exiles have some. The Lunars use Thunder Delta slingers instead, whereas the Sartarites use duck slingers, crossbow-drakes or javelineers.

Depends, there are number of massed foot archer units in Armies and Enemies. But the Yelmalions don't field independent regiments of them it seems.

There is a great little chart in Armies and Enemies (pg 135) that details exactly what form of flank support each Yelmalion temple trains with - and for Vanntar its Psiloi (archers). Many others use peltasts or light cavalry, or even chariots. Vanntar no doubt has trained riders, but many less than psiloi archers. 

On 1/31/2020 at 10:56 PM, Joerg said:

Or not deployed separately from the hoplites.

As I said, to protect the hoplites they use primarily archers. 

[Yelmalios bad spirit magic]

On 1/31/2020 at 10:56 PM, Joerg said:

So which cults in their neighborhood teach those goodies?

The clan temple to Orlanth or the Seven Mothers won't chase any Yelmalian away.

I'm not saying they can't possibly learn them, just that they will be much rare than the spells they do teach. You should assume that the average Templar has Yelmalio magic. The average person learns what spirit magic they get for free, not spend comparative fortunes for magic from other cults. And among the Vanntar people or Varantos, the clan temple to Orlanth  is a sad affair. 

On 1/31/2020 at 10:56 PM, Joerg said:

The Golden Spearman may be a subcult of Yelmalio in some places, or the allied cult Hastatus closer to Dara Happa.

The Golden Spearman is a generic name for any Lightfore as infantry cult. I haven't seen any indictation Hastatus is allied to Yelmalio - but it would be one obvious way to make Yelmalio suck less. 

On 1/31/2020 at 10:56 PM, Joerg said:

But isn't Pole Star an allied cult with shrines in the Yelmalian temples?

No, not in any writeup of either I have seen. 

Now, Kargzant is allied with Polaris, but thats different. 

On 1/31/2020 at 10:56 PM, Joerg said:

Elmal and Rigsdal go hand in hand, too. Now the Orlanthi version of Rigsdal is less of a dance master than Polaris is in the sky myths, but at least the ability to keep the overview is going to come in handy.

I don't think Rigsdal (a very minor cult among the Orlanthi) gets any of the big military magic Polaris has. In game terms for those with the Gods Book draft, probably mostly just the odd shrine with Star Sight, which is probably what he grants to either Elmal or Orlanth associates. 

On 1/31/2020 at 10:56 PM, Joerg said:

Palangio the Iron Vrok brought lots of efficient magics into the cult of Daysenerus, I expect.

Yes, but that was a millenium ago, and they were mostly mystic IMO. He may have even introduced gifts and geases was back then! He probably also had the taming giant Vrok hawk magic back then too, but knowing the secret of taming a now extinct magic isn't so useful. 

15 hours ago, White Coke said:

So how does Daysenerus differ from Yelmalio? Does he offer different powers or is it mostly a cultural difference like Elmalites being Orlathi vs. Yelmalions being Solar?

The emphasis on mysticism was certainly one thing - in other words, it taught Illumination. It started as an offshoot of the Antirius cult of the Dara Happans? Many major features of the Yelmalio cult that distinguish it from either Elmal, or from other hoplite cults, may have originated then. There is certainly a theory that the heavy sarissa spear that makes them phalangites was brought in in response to facing charges from Western cavalry. It probably had a quite different set of Associated cults. Probably quite similar to modern Yelmalio but more Dara Happan and more mystic. 

But mostly, its just over a thousand years ago. 

[Tindalos]

23 minutes ago, davecake said:

The Golden Spearman is a generic name for any Lightfore as infantry cult. I haven't seen any indictation Hastatus is allied to Yelmalio - but it would be one obvious way to make Yelmalio suck less.

As incarnations of the sunspear hero, Hastatus/Avivorus and Avivath do seem to be tied to Antirius, and connected to the Sunspear itself. With Avivorus ascending to Antirius after his death.

It's possible you could view him as "The cult of Yelm within Antirius/Yelmalio as worshipped when Yelm wasn't around" providing the Sunspear in the darkness, and as the regimental god of some Lunar regiments.

[davecake]

9 hours ago, Tindalos said:

As incarnations of the sunspear hero, Hastatus/Avivorus and Avivath do seem to be tied to Antirius, and connected to the Sunspear itself. With Avivorus ascending to Antirius after his death.

Yes, it makes perfect sense that Hastatus could be associated with Yelmalio, and as a source of weapon enhancing magic it would bring Yelmalio up to par with other warrior cults - I just have never seen a writeup in which it is. I guess that Hastatus is more restricted to Dara Happa?

[Richard S.]

9 minutes ago, davecake said:

Yes, it makes perfect sense that Hastatus could be associated with Yelmalio, and as a source of weapon enhancing magic it would bring Yelmalio up to par with other warrior cults - I just have never seen a writeup in which it is. I guess that Hastatus is more restricted to Dara Happa?

I doubt that Hastatus has a full cult of his own. I'd presume that both he and the other weapon gods are usually subsumed under Yelm the Warrior, like how the Thunder Brothers are a part of the Orlanth cult.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Richard S.

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I doubt that Hastatus has a full cult of his own. I'd presume that both he and the other weapon gods are usually subsumed under Yelm the Warrior, like how the Thunder Brothers are a part of the Orlanth cult.

In the Enclosure writeup for Shargash it is mentioned under the 'other important cults in Alkoth' heading, so I have to disagree.  

I hadn't previously considered it, but he strikes me as remarkably similar to Yelmalio, given cultic access to Sunspear at the highest levels and a puritanical approach. 

[davecake]

5 hours ago, Richard S. said:

doubt that Hastatus has a full cult of his own. I'd presume that both he and the other weapon gods are usually subsumed under Yelm the Warrior, like how the Thunder Brothers are a part of the Orlanth cult.

I think Hastatus is worshipped as an associated god of several war gods - not just Yelm (whose direct worship is restricted to the social elite) but also Polaris, Shargash, etc. I think he is also worshipped directly by low level soldiers, the rank and file, though usually with almost no rune levels dedicated to his worship. 

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

In the Enclosure writeup for Shargash it is mentioned under the 'other important cults in Alkoth' heading, so I have to disagree.  

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the details of what was in Enclosure. A lot has changed in our understanding since then. 

These days, I think Hastatus is mostly important to Alkoth as an associated cult of Shargash, providing him with Truespear, and a war god (alongside Shargash) for those regiments that use spears. Though there are also Shargashi units that use other weapons (especially clubs), such as the Kill You regiment and the Feathered Axe (who despite the name use clubs and javelins).

[Tindalos]

36 minutes ago, davecake said:

I think Hastatus is worshipped as an associated god of several war gods - not just Yelm (whose direct worship is restricted to the social elite) but also Polaris, Shargash, etc. I think he is also worshipped directly by low level soldiers, the rank and file, though usually with almost no rune levels dedicated to his worship. 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the details of what was in Enclosure. A lot has changed in our understanding since then. 

These days, I think Hastatus is mostly important to Alkoth as an associated cult of Shargash, providing him with Truespear, and a war god (alongside Shargash) for those regiments that use spears. Though there are also Shargashi units that use other weapons (especially clubs), such as the Kill You regiment and the Feathered Axe (who despite the name use clubs and javelins).

It is worth noting that Avivorus is listed as one of the Lunar war gods alongside Shargash, Yanafal Tarnils and Polaris (GtG 295), suggesting he might be his own cult, alongside Urengerum.

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

I think Hastatus is worshipped as an associated god of several war gods - not just Yelm (whose direct worship is restricted to the social elite) but also Polaris, Shargash, etc. I think he is also worshipped directly by low level soldiers, the rank and file, though usually with almost no rune levels dedicated to his worship. 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the details of what was in Enclosure. A lot has changed in our understanding since then. 

These days, I think Hastatus is mostly important to Alkoth as an associated cult of Shargash, providing him with Truespear, and a war god (alongside Shargash) for those regiments that use spears. Though there are also Shargashi units that use other weapons (especially clubs), such as the Kill You regiment and the Feathered Axe (who despite the name use clubs and javelins).

Nonetheless, even if that is the case, it is still an important cult for Shargashi. Since one of Shargash's titles is 'Wielder of the Skyspears', that seems to emphasise the importance rather than diminish it. 

[davecake]

7 hours ago, Tindalos said:

It is worth noting that Avivorus is listed as one of the Lunar war gods alongside Shargash, Yanafal Tarnils and Polaris (GtG 295), suggesting he might be his own cult, alongside Urengerum.

Yes, though least important of those four probably. 

 

[Tindalos]

As a bit of a sideways question, just how big do Sun Dome Temples count as ruleswise? Because the County's the size of a tribe, are they a Major Temple? Or as a prominant religious site, is it one of Dragon Pass' Great Temples?

Also is the temple to the sun in Runegate a minor temple (as on page 14), or a major temple (as on page 49)?

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

As a bit of a sideways question, just how big do Sun Dome Temples count as ruleswise? Because the County's the size of a tribe, are they a Major Temple? Or as a prominant religious site, is it one of Dragon Pass' Great Temples?

Also is the temple to the sun in Runegate a minor temple (as on page 14), or a major temple (as on page 49)?

Anything to RQG, a great temple requires 750-4,000 lay members and initiates, and is run by a High Priest. The Sun Dome County in Dragon Pass has about 10000 inhabitants and we know there's a High Priest. I think it's safe to assume that most of the men will be at least lay members of Yelmalio, if not initiates, so it's likely that it qualifies for Great Temple status.

[Akhôrahil]

Can you imagine how good Yelmalio would be with Sunspear and Truespear like proper sun-and-spear cult?

[Shiningbrow]

20 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Can you imagine how good Yelmalio would be with Sunspear and Truespear like proper sun-and-spear cult?

I think that's the point... Yes, people can. Hence the disappointment.

[Richard S.]

I'm honestly confused why people are pushing for Yelmalio to have more war magic. He hasn't had anything more than Shield and one-use Sunspear since his first writeup, and I've never seen people complaining about it till now. Granted, I wasn't around back then, but my skims over the mailing list and such haven't revealed any controversy over how useful his magics. There's also a point to be made that giving him things like his own Sunspear and Truespear would defeat the purpose of the cult's entire core myth - he doesn't need his weapons, his own virtues are what saw him through, not some silly weapon, and so his worshippers rely on their own virtues as well. They may not be able to throw fire and cut down enemy ranks singlehandedly, but what they lack in magic they make up for in will, grit, training, and the knowledge that the light will continue, whether they personally stand or fall.

(Also he'd technically have Truesword if he had kept his weapons from the darkness, not Truespear. "His favored weapons of bow and sword fell also, and were absorbed into the knowledge of the whole world.")

Edited February 4, 2020 by Richard S.

[Jeff]

12 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I'm honestly confused why people are pushing for Yelmalio to have more war magic. He hasn't had anything more than Shield and one-use Sunspear since his first writeup, and I've never seen people complaining about it till now. Granted, I wasn't around back then, but my skims over the mailing list and such haven't revealed any controversy over how useful his magics. There's also a point to be made that giving him things like his own Sunspear and Truespear would defeat the purpose of the cult's entire core myth - he doesn't need his weapons, his own virtues are what saw him through, not some silly weapon, and so his worshippers rely on their own virtues as well. They may not be able to throw fire and cut down enemy ranks singlehandedly, but what they lack in magic they make up for in will, grit, training, and the knowledge that the light will continue, whether they personally stand or fall.

(Also he'd technically have Truesword if he had kept his weapons from the darkness, not Truespear. "His favored weapons of bow and sword fell also, and were absorbed into the knowledge of the whole world.")

That's my take as well. Honestly much of this discussion makes little sense to me at all. If playing a Yelmalion as described in the Cults Book doesn't interest you, then don't play one. Meanwhile Elmal has taken on some extra-Glorantha totemic role, which may fit into one's personal mythology but not into the Glorantha of ongoing publication. YGWV and all that, but I see absolutely nothing in this thread to make me reconsider the role Greg and I gave Elmal in RQG - that of a local variant of Yelmalio that has been dying out since the 1560s. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Jeff

[davecake]

On 2/4/2020 at 2:16 PM, Richard S. said:

I'm honestly confused why people are pushing for Yelmalio to have more war magic. He hasn't had anything more than Shield and one-use Sunspear since his first writeup, and I've never seen people complaining about it till now.

You haven’t hung around with me much! I’ve been saying his magic is weak since the 1980s! But it’s also true that as RQG has made Rune magic a far more accessible and common part of the game, it’s made the differences in magic more important. 

[davecake]

On 2/4/2020 at 2:16 PM, Richard S. said:

I'm honestly confused why people are pushing for Yelmalio to have more war magic. He hasn't had anything more than Shield and one-use Sunspear since his first writeup, and I've never seen people complaining about it till now.

Also, its noting that Yelmalio had access to Shield in RQ1/2 (when it was common magic accessible to all) and in RQ3 he first lost it (didn't have it in Gods of Glorantha) then regained it (with the long form writeup in Sun County). Quite aside from arguments about Elmal and such, I think there is a strong argument that It makes more sense for Yelmalio to have it - and that wanting Yelmalio to have a bit more war magic is only arguing for a return to what he had previously. 

I also find the attitude to the shortword, that was the normal secondary weapon of a phalangite historically (a xiphos to be precise), pretty interesting. Initially it seemed like a typical oversight of early RuneQuest days just missing a historical details (same as their bronze age bastard swords etc). The idea being that if someone gets past the wall of spears into the ranks, but the phalanx is still mostly holding, trying to attack someone with a pike that is in a close crush is ridiculous, so you have a much shorter weapon for close in fighting. In RQ3 etc I presumed it was an oversight and templars would still carry something similar if not well trained in its use. They'd also be used as a secondary weapon for peltasts and psiloi, the other two most common troop types of the Yelmalions - and documented and depicted as such in Armies and Enemies. But in RQG, a new restriction on Yelmalio has been introduced, that the cult absolutely never trains in sword ever, making it unlikely they would have it even as a secondary weapon - and unintentionally meaning that the Templars are always going to have a weakness not just in their magic, but in their equipment and tactics as well. This seems unnecessary. 

So, there is an argument that RQG Yelmalion magic and skills needs to be improved just to raise them up to the equivalent of previous editions. 

The argument about Hastatus and Truespear is twofold - one is that the Golden Spearman image of the cult is so emphasized in essentially every discussion of them that it seems weird for them to have no magic about spears at all. And the other is that it seems very odd to argue that essentially every other sky pantheon spear fighter has access to it, and they do not, yet they are still to be considered the most dangerous spearmen. 

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

20 minutes ago, davecake said:

I also find the attitude to the shortword, that was the normal secondary weapon of a phalangite historically (a xiphos to be precise), pretty interesting. Initially it seemed like a typical oversight of early RuneQuest days just missing a historical details (same as their bronze age bastard swords etc). The idea being that if someone gets past the wall of spears into the ranks, but the phalanx is still mostly holding, trying to attack someone with a pike that is in a close crush is ridiculous, so you have a much shorter weapon for close in fighting. In RQ3 etc I presumed it was an oversight and templars would still carry something similar if not well trained in its use. They'd also be used as a secondary weapon for peltasts and psiloi, the other two most common troop types of the Yelmalions - and documented and depicted as such in Armies and Enemies. But in RQG, a new restriction on Yelmalio has been introduced, that the cult absolutely never trains in sword ever, making it unlikely they would have it even as a secondary weapon - and unintentionally meaning that the Templars are always going to have a weakness not just in their magic, but in their equipment and tactics as well. This seems unnecessary. 

Personally, I'd say that's relying too much on blue marble stuff.

I certainly agree that all such troops would have some sort of close quarters melee weapon, but swords take more skill to use proficiently than, say, axes or maces... (yes, this may be debatable)

Edited February 5, 2020 by Shiningbrow

[Akhôrahil]

On 2/4/2020 at 7:16 AM, Richard S. said:

I'm honestly confused why people are pushing for Yelmalio to have more war magic. He hasn't had anything more than Shield and one-use Sunspear since his first writeup

I'm fine with Yelmalio sucking - the cult has always been something of a joke. But why does he have to pull Elmal - noble, steadfast thane - down with him? 🙂

(Also, Yelmalio performs worse compared to others in RQG than before, because of how much more readily accessible Rune Magic is and how much less impressive 90% in a cult weapon is these days. So it is worse than ever for Yelmalio. Getting Shield in the Cults book will be a giant improvement for the cult, though, elevating it from pretty much weakest cult in the book to merely mediocre.)

Edited February 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[davecake]

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I certainly agree that all such troops would have some sort of close quarters melee weapon, but swords take more skill to use proficiently than, say, axes or maces..

If an alternate interpretation was explicitly presented, I'd accept it - if it was canon that Yelmalions had hatchets as secondary weapons due to their Earth connection, sure. (Maces seem unlikely as a Darkness weapon and considering Yelmalio is explicitly forbidden learning Bludgeon). But there is a fair amount of existing material depicting them with shortswords, many references to hoplites with a sword (kopis, generally) in Glorantha, and no alternative presented, it just seems an oversight. 

[Akhôrahil]

29 minutes ago, davecake said:

If an alternate interpretation was explicitly presented, I'd accept it - if it was canon that Yelmalions had hatchets as secondary weapons due to their Earth connection, sure. (Maces seem unlikely as a Darkness weapon and considering Yelmalio is explicitly forbidden learning Bludgeon). But there is a fair amount of existing material depicting them with shortswords, many references to hoplites with a sword (kopis, generally) in Glorantha, and no alternative presented, it just seems an oversight. 

Or "it's not a sword, it's a spear with a very large blade and a really, really short haft".

(This isn't just a joke - super short stabbing spears are a thing.)

Edited February 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil