Elmal?

[davecake]

On 2/4/2020 at 2:59 PM, Jeff said:

If playing a Yelmalion as described in the Cults Book doesn't interest you, then don't play one.

There are other reasons to want the game word to make logical sense. If the game world insists Templars are the dangerous effective warriors but the rules make them clearly fairly ineffective, there is a flaw somewhere. 

Instead, you seem to have double down on making Yelmalio a less effective cult than it has been in pretty much every previous edition.

On 2/4/2020 at 2:59 PM, Jeff said:

Meanwhile Elmal has taken on some extra-Glorantha totemic role,

Yes. For it has taken on the symbolic role of 'wanting compatibility between the vision of Glorantha presented in multiple *current* products is a valid player desire that should be supported, not treated with bafflement or condescension'. I'm not saying that nothing should ever change, but at least some understanding that there is an actual issue, and perhaps some suggested options for resolution, would be nice. 

On 2/4/2020 at 2:59 PM, Jeff said:

I see absolutely nothing in this thread to make me reconsider the role Greg and I gave Elmal in RQG - that of a local variant of Yelmalio that has been dying out since the 1560s. 

It's a bit subtler than that. Of course Elmal has lost worshippers, power and influence since the 1560s, and (especially with Argrath backing them for the most part) there seems no reason to think that will reverse. But does that mean that the Elmal clans that remain are so rare they should be considered not to exist? No, we know of a few places where they have some strength, and places where people are likely to set their games. Does the decline of Elmal to be replaced by Yelmalio add interest and drama to the game? For sure. I don't want Elmal to be a thriving alternative to Yelmalio - rather, I want the decline of Elmal to be something that is slowly happening, rather than something that has already happened. And I want being on either side of that cultural shift to be an equally valid PC choice. 

[SDLeary]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

For sure. I don't want Elmal to be a thriving alternative to Yelmalio - rather, I want the decline of Elmal to be something that is slowly happening, rather than something that has already happened. And I want being on either side of that cultural shift to be an equally valid PC choice. 

And this adds game tension and social nuggets for the GM to use to add to their scenarios. It could be very amusing/interesting to have both a Yelmalian and an Elmalian in the same party.

SDLeary

Edited February 5, 2020 by SDLeary

[Sir_Godspeed]

Forgive me, but everytime I see this thread, I had the urge to edit a certain meme:

 

[Richard S.]

5 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Forgive me, but everytime I see this thread, I had the urge to edit a certain meme:

 

GET DOWN MR. MONROGH!

[M Helsdon]

13 hours ago, davecake said:

The idea being that if someone gets past the wall of spears into the ranks, but the phalanx is still mostly holding, trying to attack someone with a pike that is in a close crush is ridiculous, so you have a much shorter weapon for close in fighting. In RQ3 etc I presumed it was an oversight and templars would still carry something similar if not well trained in its use. They'd also be used as a secondary weapon for peltasts and psiloi, the other two most common troop types of the Yelmalions - and documented and depicted as such in Armies and Enemies. 

The secondary weapons for many Yelmalion units are based primarily upon Army Lists by Greg and Jeff. The latest Army List I have gives several Yelmalions swords of various types.

Giving Yelmalion phalangites swords as secondary weapons is probably mine, based in part because of real world usage, and by the fact that in the press of a pike phalanx, there isn't any room to swing a weapon - instead stabbing and thrusting would be the only way to use a secondary weapon, be it a long dagger or a sword. A phalangite phalanx by its nature provides far tighter spacing even than a hoplite phalanx, because the smaller shields don't overlap and because of the posture required to use a two-handed pike.

Regarding training, we have some evidence that historical phalangites went through very extensive training in using their pikes in formation (very necessary, when you consider the length of these pikes and the close spacing between files), but there is little to nothing about any training for their secondary weapons (which they carried), in part, I suspect, because if you are in the press of a phalanx, there's no room for any fancy use of a sword, other than stab, stab, stab. No finesse, no skill as such, just strength and tenacity.

If not fighting in a phalanx, a phalangite would probably prefer to use a shorter spear - pikes are pretty useless in one-to-one combat as the duel between Dioxippus (naked, oiled, carrying a club) and Coragus (wearing phalangite armor, using a pike, shield, sword) demonstrated: Dioxippus broke the pike with his club, wrestled Coragus to the ground, and got him in a hold that would have been fatal if Alexander hadn't stopped the fight.

[davecake]

6 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Giving Yelmalion phalangites swords as secondary weapons is probably mine, based in part because of real world usage

I think it predates you - for example, it’s not mentioned in the text of Sun County explicitly, but it’s right there on the cover. 

6 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

and by the fact that in the press of a pike phalanx, there isn't any room to swing a weapon

yes, there really aren’t many options that work anywhere near as well. Short stabbing weapons seem the best. 

6 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

there is little to nothing about any training for their secondary weapons (which they carried), in part, I suspect, because if you are in the press of a phalanx, there's no room for any fancy use of a sword, other than stab, stab, stab. No finesse, no skill as such, just strength and tenacity.

I don’t think they get a lot of training, but I think the idea of none whatsoever (in fact, a prohibition on providing it) seems far fetched. At least training on how to draw and stab without disrupting the phalanx too much. 
 

6 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

If not fighting in a phalanx, a phalangite would probably prefer to use a shorter spear

Yes. And your soldiers are going to have other armed duties (guarding, policing, etc) for which shorter spear and shield are useful. Plus soldiers will sometimes ‘graduate’ to phalangite from youth as a peltast/skirmisher. 
Not to mention if hypaspists are being used, they will be fighting in the phalanx with a shorter spear, essentially, and it may sometimes be necessary to move soldiers from one role to the other. 

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Forgive me, but everytime I see this thread, I had the urge to edit a certain meme:

 

Here in.China, the question "Why?" typically results in "No why" (in English of course...)

So, let me just say.... No Y!

[Shawn Carpenter]

On 2/5/2020 at 3:03 AM, davecake said:

On 2/4/2020 at 12:59 AM, Jeff said:

Meanwhile Elmal has taken on some extra-Glorantha totemic role,

Yes. For it has taken on the symbolic role of 'wanting compatibility between the vision of Glorantha presented in multiple *current* products is a valid player desire that should be supported, not treated with bafflement or condescension'. I'm not saying that nothing should ever change, but at least some understanding that there is an actual issue, and perhaps some suggested options for resolution, would be nice. 

For myself, as a somewhat successful game publisher in another branch of the hobby, I can't think of anything better than having a significant portion of my players enthusiastically identify with some aspect of my game. I always looked at player investment as a good thing, even if it sometimes baffled me (and it did). It's a lot better to have players vocally arguing to retain a beloved aspect of a game than screaming to have something hateful removed. 

I honestly don't understand the kerfuffle here from a design standpoint. Having two competing sun gods in the same region makes for good social RP. Leaving the outcome up in the air for the moment makes for good suspense and allows GMs some latitude in putting their own spin on things. Where's the problem in that?

Again, I know that everyone is free to ignore the official published take on E vs. Y, I'm just baffled that player loyalty to Elmal is seen as "non-Gloranthan" instead of beneficial and satisfying.

Also - if YGWV, how the heck is anything "non-Gloranthan?"

Edited February 6, 2020 by Shawn Carpenter
Removed redundant phrase

[soltakss]

On 2/3/2020 at 8:55 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Can you imagine how good Yelmalio would be with Sunspear and Truespear like proper sun-and-spear cult?

If you want Sunspear and Trurespear then go and join Yelm. What, your father wasn't a Yelm cultists? Tough, stop whining about it, then, or HeroQuest to join Yelm anyway.

Yelmalio fans cannot stop whinging. He doesn't get Shield. He doesn't get Truespear. He has nasty geases.

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

 

Yelmalio fans cannot stop whinging. He doesn't get Shield. He doesn't get Truespear. He has nasty geases.

I thought that was the chaos aspect of Imarja 🦆

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

If you want Sunspear and Trurespear then go and join Yelm. What, your father wasn't a Yelm cultists? Tough, stop whining about it, then, or HeroQuest to join Yelm anyway.

Yelmalio fans cannot stop whinging. He doesn't get Shield. He doesn't get Truespear. He has nasty geases.

I mean, he did have shield back in RQ2, since it was a change, and given comments earlier he will again soon?

As for Truespear, joining Yelm wouldn't help as he doesn't provide that either. As for sunspear, Yelmalio does provide it, albeit through Yelm with a major or great temple. And of course one clan of Elmali did turn to the worship of Yelm seeking Sunspear, but then Yelmalio came along as well.

[Bill the barbarian]

18 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

I thought that was the chaos aspect of Imarja 🦆

Is that a friggin’ duck at the end of your sentence. One word... WOOHOO!
the first emoji I can get behind!

[davecake]

On 2/8/2020 at 4:10 AM, soltakss said:

If you want Sunspear and Trurespear then go and join Yelm. What, your father wasn't a Yelm cultists? Tough, stop whining about it, then, or HeroQuest to join Yelm anyway

Actually, all you need to do is get promoted to get Sunspear. Yelm grants it as an associated cult, but only to Chief Priests of Yelmalio. 
Of course, you usually get promoted by waiting for the guy above you to die or retire, but there are ways of hurrying that along. 

[davecake]

6 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Is that a friggin’ duck at the end of your sentence.

Now someone is going to have to explain the joke to Bill. 

[Richard S.]

16 minutes ago, davecake said:

Actually, all you need to do is get promoted to get Sunspear. Yelm grants it as an associated cult, but only to Chief Priests of Yelmalio. 
Of course, you usually get promoted by waiting for the guy above you to die or retire, but there are ways of hurrying that along. 

In RQ2 it was also available to priests serving the Light Captain, along with the Light Captain themselves, Light Keeper, and High Priest. I hope it's presented that way in the GaGoG as well.

[White Coke]

Some versions of the Hill of Gold mention Orlanth stealing Yelmalio's Lightning Spear. Is that supposed to be a javelin, or did Yelmalio also have lightning powers? Because if he did I thought the only Sky god to use lightning was Shargash because he took it from Umath.

[Richard S.]

23 minutes ago, White Coke said:

Some versions of the Hill of Gold mention Orlanth stealing Yelmalio's Lightning Spear. Is that supposed to be a javelin, or did Yelmalio also have lightning powers? Because if he did I thought the only Sky god to use lightning was Shargash because he took it from Umath.

IIRC, Yavor is the Lightning Javelin, a sky god enslaved/befriended by Orlanth, and thus the source of the Air Rune's lightning powers (lightning is pretty much just a weak sunspear coming from a cloud anyways). He may have been Yelmalio's javelin I think. And Shargash didn't steal lightning I don't think, but he did gain the power of thunder.

[White Coke]

What does the power of thunder entail? Making loud noises to scare things?

[Richard S.]

1 minute ago, White Coke said:

What does the power of thunder entail? Making loud noises to scare things?

Loud noises, yes, but it's more powerful than just scaring things. It's related to darkness somewhat I believe, and a lot of the time is represented by things like drums and clubs. I've heard some examples of it being used to inspire troops, shatter enemy morale, and sometimes physically break things.

[Qizilbashwoman]

10 hours ago, davecake said:

Now someone is going to have to explain the joke to Bill. 

to be fair it took me a minute to get the joke. i speak some Irish and geas is rhymes exactly with English "gas".

fun note, in the Tingleverse, the roleplaying universe of Chuck Tingle, there's all these cthulhoid monsters from the Void. And then you hit... geese. Because geese are terrible.

(They require magical weapons to hurt them and they cause fear. They may also be secret minions of the Void.)

Edited February 9, 2020 by Qizilbashwoman

[Ali the Helering]

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

to be fair it took me a minute to get the joke. i speak some Irish and geas is rhymes exactly with English "gas".

fun note, in the Tingleverse, the roleplaying universe of Chuck Tingle, there's all these cthulhoid monsters from the Void. And then you hit... geese. Because geese are terrible.

(They require magical weapons to hurt them and they cause fear. They may also be secret minions of the Void.)

I have a tendency to assume (wrongly, I know) that everybody reads Pratchett, where Rincewind had a continuing confusion between geas and geese.  Sorry all!

[Bill the barbarian]

11 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

I have a tendency to assume (wrongly, I know) that everybody reads Pratchett, where Rincewind had a continuing confusion between geas and geese.  Sorry all!

and so ya used a duck... clear as tapioca!

[Ali the Helering]

5 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

and so ya used a duck... clear as tapioca!

If you can direct me to a goose emoji... 

I have NEVER claimed to be either sensible or sane.  When the verdict from a brain scan came back as 'normal' I demanded a recount! 

As I said, sorry all. I shall try to keep my flights of fancy under better control 🙏😋

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

As I said, sorry all. I shall try to keep my flights of fancy under better control 🙏😋

I own this patch and will be having it added to my black leather jacket as the very first patch I ever add to it (because I can't sew on leather):

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

I have NEVER claimed to be either sensible or sane.  When the verdict from a brain scan came back as 'normal' I demanded a recount! 

 

Ali the unstable? Could be a new moniker... or not. Whatever the case may be, never let them clip your wings in your flights of fancy. Keep flying true!