Spirit Combat and party wipe

[Puckohue]

Does anyone have experience of sending a bunch of aggressive spirits at the adventurers? Seems to me it will be rough on them as they can't enter spirit combat themselves, to help each other. I'm afraid they'll be possessed one by one in their solo spirit combats. Maybe some or most will make it, but they can't help their comrades.

[Austin]

55 minutes ago, Puckohue said:

Does anyone have experience of sending a bunch of aggressive spirits at the adventurers?

I think the most I've sent was 3 or 4 madness spirits when my players were investigating a Lunar ruin. Every spirit encounter my group's ever had has been pretty one-sided due to the Humakti's enchanted iron sword + Truesword. I suspect that even Truesword alone is probably a workhorse.

Now that I think about it, when I was playing rather than GMing I think we may have fought 4 or 5 when against a Mallia shaman. Again, the Humakti cleaned house. Same adventurer, his combat prowess is basically a Sword's, he's just missing some other skills.

It seems to me that the really scary part is when multiple spirits stack up on a single adventurer. While not certain, I believe the consensus I saw on these forums was that the adventurer could only attack one, but could receive basically any number of spirit combat attacks. Their roll could defend them--e.g. if they rolled a special, only specials or crits would deal MP damage to them--but their rolled damage only went to one spirit.

Intelligent, crafty spirits can also be really dangerous. I remember a tactic suggested that a spirit would initiate combat, then withdraw after the adventurer casts Spirit Block and wait for the spell to expire.

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, Crel said:

Intelligent, crafty spirits can also be really dangerous. I remember a tactic suggested that a spirit would initiate combat, then withdraw after the adventurer casts Spirit Block and wait for the spell to expire.

Most spirits are pretty obsessive and not very smart about things, only reflexively doing their own thing, so there's that.

On the other hand, it's probably the bigger spirits that tend to act smarter, so that just makes them even more dangerous.

[Austin]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

Most spirits are pretty obsessive and not very smart about things, only reflexively doing their own thing, so there's that.

On the other hand, it's probably the bigger spirits that tend to act smarter, so that just makes them even more dangerous.

Yeah, it's definitely not something I see as a commonplace behavior.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Puckohue said:

 Maybe some or most will make it, but they can't help their comrades.

There is always another way so they can.

they can look for a shaman or a priest, promise some commitments (new adventure hooks)

Or they can discover a ruin where a big spirit, ghost, driad, ... who agree to help them if....

 

[Diana Probst]

Until reading this post, I'd always assumed that the spirit becoming visible in the Middle World let it be attacked by others.  Now I need to go check that, but it's how I've been playing.  The other way definitely makes sense, but I'll be inhaling that bit of the rulebook later.

[10baseT]

Yup, it can get deadly. In general, i've tried to make the spirit encounter survivable as in, if you can't beat it, you can at least run. Although, i've also had it where rumors suggest the spirit is very strong. As the PCs near where the spirit is at, they see skeletons, husk, corpse on the ground (suggesting it will be tough). In this case, it will be a knock-out drag-down spirit fight. Hopefully the PCs have some sort of spirit screen or high power.

Sometimes the PCs just need to make the decision to run or not. I think we did this several time down in Balastor's and Rabbit Farm. (i have an upcoming encounter where there's a spirit and simply engaging as is, will be tough.)

Edit: forgot to add. I don't just let players cast bladesharp on their weapons then let them attack willy nilly,... that's too meta for me. Here's how it usually goes.

Me: a spectral visage of a goat beast manifest, shreeks and dives into player 1. (Player 1, you feel cold... you're in spirit combat)

Player 2: I cast bladesharp 4 and attack.

Me: You hit Player 1, roll damage.

Player 2: What, no... i don't swing like that.

Me: What do you do then? You see Player 1 with his hands clutching his head, convulsing, jerking and shaking about.

Player 2: Mmmm, i place my sword against Player 1's chest?

Me:.........

Player 2: Well, does anything happen?

Me: Not that you can tell. You don't see a spirit sticking out or anything... not saying you could see it if it was. What do you do?

Player 2:.... (thinking hard)

For the most part, that's how i run it. Although, i'm more lenient if you are attacking the spirit in this manner, when that spirit is attacking yourself. YGMV.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by 10baseT

[Kloster]

As far as I have understood, you can strike with magic or iron weapons only on the spirits you can see. That means the ones that are (spirit) fighting you, the ones that have manifested and the ones you see through special means (spells, powers,...). The rest, you can't strike.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Kloster

[Dissolv]

3 hours ago, Crel said:

I think the most I've sent was 3 or 4 madness spirits when my players were investigating a Lunar ruin. Every spirit encounter my group's ever had has been pretty one-sided due to the Humakti's enchanted iron sword + Truesword. I suspect that even Truesword alone is probably a workhorse.

Sounds like a good way to get the Humakti to burn off some RP's.  Once he gets enchanted iron though......ugh.  One of the many, many reasons that I keep iron truly rare and hard won in my campaigns.  

 

To the OP, spirit combat is one of the last elements I normally introduce the players to.  First an intro to physical combat mechanics, then I add in spells and organized opposition.  When the bad guys start mixing in summoned creatures like elementals and various spirits, you are looking at a fully 3-D combat, so normally I hit them with a solo spirit guardian or two to get them used to the idea that spirit combat is a thing, and to make sure that they at least as aware of it as their characters ought to be.  

But some parties are just very two dimensional, with little in the way to spirit defense, even after this, and at some point some bad guy shaman or chaos hole unloads a massive spirit attack on them, and it gets ugly.  Divine Intervention is normally the answer in that case.   This is where layered defenses and lots of physical distance matters.  Put some guardian spirits at the cave entrance to force attackers to burn RP and MP.  Then some physical guards -- more RP and MP, and then after over 15 minutes have elapsed, another layer of the same will require even more RP and MP to force through it. 

I do remember that the Lunars used unpreparedness for a mass spiritual attack to crush the Sartarites at the battle of Grizzly Peak, so there is a learning moment here in the lore.   

Oh, and once I introduce the concept of spirit combat to the players, and they have encountered scenario clues that there are spirits or ghosts or such inhabiting a place, if they venture in there, it's on. 

 

This is the case I would absolutely allow a party wipe (although no reason they can't DI the group back from certain doom).  The players knew the mechanic, were warned by the in game events/scenario clues, and went in under prepared.  If I had failed to introduce spirit combat as a thing -- that would be on me as the GM.  If the players are far from home they might not have the means to learn what to expect in whatever cave or ruins they are exploring, so one close call, or maybe a GM deus ex machina save is appropriate.  But at some point the players should be aware of the nature of the game world and its risks, and this isn't like in 2nd and 3rd edition where you had to pre-spend your Rune points on Spirit Block.   That's now a common spell so they should be able to run away and survive until they can work out some means of combating or otherwise quieting the spirits unless they were burning their RP willy nilly on Shield, Truesword, and Lightning.   Which the priests of the enemy cults are hopefully trying to get them to do. 

End of the day, if the party is strong enough to have double digit RP's, stored pow, and maybe even some iron, it should be full on 3-D chess combat from the sophisticated opponents, and even some of this sort of thing from say, a Scorpion Queen, if that is their target. 

 

[gochie]

4 hours ago, Crel said:

I believe the consensus I saw on these forums was that the adventurer could only attack one, but could receive basically any number of spirit combat attacks.

There is no attack and parry in spirit combat, only an opposed success. The adventurer will likely end-up losing VS many spirits anyways, since in the case of a tie both parties deal their damage.

[HreshtIronBorne]

From the rules on Spirit Combat from the RQ:G core rules:

If a spirit wishes to attack a corporeal being, the spirit makes itself visible in the Middle World the melee roundprior to its first attack. Shamans can see the spirits at all times using Second Sight, and they would normally be aware of the spirit’s malign intention to attack before it becomes visible. If both combatants are already in the Spirit World, there is no delay. Once begun, spirit combat lasts until one of the following conditions are met: 
. Both parties agree to end the conflict. 
. One of the combatants disengages.
. One or both parties are reduced to 0 magic points.

Forther down we get:

Attacking with Weapons 
and Spells

Corporeal entities may attack a spirit that is engaged in spirit combat with enchanted weapons and spells. The physical attack is resolved normally, but opposed by the spirit’s Spirit Combat skill. However, the magic point damage from physical weapons is based on its magical nature:
.Temporary damage boosts from Rune magic (such as True Weapon) do harm spirits but only to the amount of extra damage caused by the spell. For example, True Sword would do 1D8+1 if cast on a broadsword.
. Enchanted weapons (such as enchanted iron or other Rune metals) do normal damage, but gain no damage bonus from STR+SIZ.
. Offensive damage-causing spells (such as Disrup-tion or Lightning) can harm spirits.
.Temporary damage boosts from spirit magic (such as Bladesharp, Fireblade, etc.) do not harm most spirits, nor do unenchanted Rune metal weapons (such as unenchanted iron).

 

This would indicate to me that a party of adventurers can come up with SOME way to defeat a group of spirits even without excellent backup from a shaman or whatever. They mostly need to be prepared. There is also a good deal of rules text to support alternative solutions rather than just attempting to "kill" the spirit in Spirit Combat or drive it away with physcial/magical attacks. I think deowdning on the spirit and the encounter you may be able to bargain your way out or some other appropriately dramatic solutions. 

[Austin]

1 hour ago, gochie said:

There is no attack and parry in spirit combat, only an opposed success. The adventurer will likely end-up losing VS many spirits anyways, since in the case of a tie both parties deal their damage.

I'll try to elaborate a little further (keeping in mind that I could have this totally wrong).

You're correct, the whole set-up is an opposed success. Vishi is in spirit combat with three spirits simultaneously. He rolls his Spirit Combat skill of 80% once, rolling 16, a special. The spirits roll:

• 54 on 60%, a standard success. That spirit deals no damage, because Vishi rolled a special, and wins the opposed roll.
• 10 on 60%, a special success. That spirit deals normal damage, because both the spirit and Vishi rolled the same result, a special.
• 02 on 60%, a critical success. That spirit deals critical damage to Vishi (or maybe special damage, I'm uncertain on this one), and Vishi can't deal damage to it, because the spirit got a better result than him.

Vishi's Spirit Combat roll lets him deal damage to one spirit. His player chooses to deal damage to the first spirit, because the special will deal the most damage. The second spirit deals normal damage, and the third deals critical damage. All of that damage is dealt simultaneously on strike rank 12.

Importantly, as far as I understand Vishi doesn't deal his spirit combat damage to all three spirits based on individual opposed Spirit Combat rolls. His player rolls once, and assigns his "attack" where he wishes. That one roll is his "parry" or defense against all three opposed rolls. So, without spiritual armor or an extremely high Spirit Combat skill, when fighting multiple spirits with spirit combat the danger grows quickly.

Worth pointing out on the player side of these tactics, that once you become a Rune Master (and if your cult has the enchantment) the Spirit Armor Enchantment can make small spirits trivial for a few points of POW (1D3 points of armor per POW spent). Not necessarily easy or convenient, but I've got to imagine many shamans have a few POW of spiritual armor, considering that's their bread & butter.

[David Scott]

8 minutes ago, Crel said:

Vishi is in spirit combat with three spirits simultaneously.

Strike Rank 1 - Vishi casts Spirit Block, SR2 Shouts "Spirit Block or run". SR12, spirit combat starts. Vishi will cast Spirit Block 3 if more than two spirits. 

[gochie]

32 minutes ago, Crel said:

Vishi's Spirit Combat roll lets him deal damage to one spirit. His player chooses to deal damage to the first spirit, because the special will deal the most damage. The second spirit deals normal damage, and the third deals critical damage. All of that damage is dealt simultaneously on strike rank 12.

As I wouldn't limit the number of spirits Vishi can damage in a round, I would rule that Vishi deals special damage to spirit #1, deals normal damage to spirit #2, and deals no damage to spirit #3.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

The physical attack is resolved normally, but opposed by the spirit’s Spirit Combat skill.

Interesting.  This implies that the spirit can "Dodge" the Humakhi with Truesword.  I like it!  Otherwise a couple of swordsmen with Truesword, Bladesharp, or iron are just too tough.

[HreshtIronBorne]

30 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Otherwise a couple of swordsmen with Truesword, Bladesharp, or iron are just too tough.

 

4 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Temporary damage boosts from spirit magic (such as Bladesharp, Fireblade, etc.) do not harm most spirits, nor do unenchanted Rune metal weapons (such as unenchanted iron).

The Spirit Magics Bladesharp or Fireblade specifically do not hurt spirits anymore, which I find to be a tad bit harsh maybe? Even most beginning characters will have some sort of access to offensive magic hopefully, at least disruptions, so it shouldn't be too big of a problem. Most every cult also gets all the Common Rune Magic which means that spirit Block is often an emergency option to at least get away safely. 

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Puckohue said:

Does anyone have experience of sending a bunch of aggressive spirits at the adventurers? Seems to me it will be rough on them as they can't enter spirit combat themselves, to help each other. I'm afraid they'll be possessed one by one in their solo spirit combats. Maybe some or most will make it, but they can't help their comrades.

Yes, I did so at the conclusion of the Broken Tower scenario. 

If you're the GM, do not overdo the Spirit Combat rating for your spirits first time through - as in old RQ2 days, they are likely to end up victims. Let them have a taste of it and learn what works or doesn't work.

It's useful to remind players that if they have Rune Points, then odds are they have Spirit Block - makes a huge difference.

Most spirits are bound to an area/place - adventurers can usually run away if they aren't directly engaged.

If you have a shaman/adventurer with Distraction (who has good POW and Spirit Combat) - draw the spirits away from those who don't have it.

 

 

[Austin]

12 hours ago, gochie said:

As I wouldn't limit the number of spirits Vishi can damage in a round, I would rule that Vishi deals special damage to spirit #1, deals normal damage to spirit #2, and deals no damage to spirit #3.

I think that's reasonable.

[soltakss]

23 hours ago, Puckohue said:

Does anyone have experience of sending a bunch of aggressive spirits at the adventurers?

In RQ2, our Rune Level Party was terrified of bunches of spirits, as 0 POW meant instadeath. It's not so bad now, as 0 MPs means possession, maybe, with a trip to a shaman to cure that.

23 hours ago, Puckohue said:

Seems to me it will be rough on them as they can't enter spirit combat themselves, to help each other.

That is one thing that makes it dangerous.

23 hours ago, Puckohue said:

I'm afraid they'll be possessed one by one in their solo spirit combats.

One of the PCs in our party was possessed by a Spirit that immediately attempted an Initiate Divine Intervention, succeeded and transported the PC's body to its ruined home temple.

Possession can be really dangerous.

23 hours ago, Puckohue said:

Maybe some or most will make it, but they can't help their comrades.

Yes, Spirits are dangerous.

It is possible that other PCs can hit the spirit with magical weapons to do damage, but I'd play that they also do damage to the PC's body as well, if only because it will make them whinge about it.

 

[Puckohue]

Thanks everyone for your remarks. I understand the concepts and rules involved much better now, and feel confident I can make it reasonably challenging. A lot will depend on preparing my players. They are Runequest and Glorantha newbies.