White Bear & White Moon

[scott-martin]

Looking back into the archives I encounter myself again and again like immature arkats. I would do it all differently today but those kids got me where I am now so I can't blame them. I apologize for the times they irritated you.

But in the archives I find surprisingly little substantive about where the White Moon Movement comes from and what they're really all about. Yeah, they're hippies. What kind of hippies? Pacifists? Fourierists? Waldensians? Answers would be useful as I try harder to anticipate the Hero Wars from the Lunar point of view and uh gin up some prophetic complexity. Otherwise Argrath simply gets everything he wants and I know you hate that. Let's make it a little tough for him.

What I know is that they come out of Oraya, which was largely settled by refugees fleeting the Arrolian diaspora, which had originally Gone West carrying a mass of pre-Seleran heresies as well as more orthodox aspects of the lunar way now lost in the heartland. Think of the Nationalist retreat to Taiwan stripping the museums and taking the old-school Beijing Opera companies, etc. That community had a few generations out there to develop in relative isolation. Then, the eastern threat evaporates and the west gets hot, leading many to once again take what they can, this time to the redland frontier.

There was already a Temple of the White Heart out there before the Fourth Wane so those with white moon sympathies would have a special reason to head all the way across the empire and try to make another fresh start. The farming is good. Amazing soil, the kind of yields that would have made grandpa cry back in Arrolia. And you're on one of the most important caravan routes in the world so wealth and exotic ideas get captured on the way across. The nomads are quiet. Your kids have time and leisure to study and nurse idealisms. It's great soil for idealism. The empire isn't paying attention.

There was a white "moon" goddess acknowledged among Jonat's people in old drafts. Maybe just a planet, who knows. Maybe a ghost of a former sky only visible in the far north. Moon people fleeing what looked then like the end of the world would have found that out and brought it back with them. What else? 

What I can trade is that some people say that when Yelmdrya's people died out the trolls came. Were these the original northern forests? The "Spike," sure. But look at the alternation of color, black for white fringed by a kind of "yellow" that might not actually represent conventional embyli in their jungles. Possibly more of an amber or an alabaster color, an elf mood now lost or hidden.

The Twin stars pulse red to "yellow-white." Flamal's color is amber . . . again, wherever amber comes from in your Glorantha. The Pelorians put amber in the far east and that was the direction prehistoric Yelm faced. Alabaster and whiteness were in the north. A white queen ruled before Brightface as part of the sprawling and complex Naverian complex. Arroin is sometimes translated as "healing waters" by those who know him best. He does not provide magic but instead knows herbal medicine. As owner of a Power Rune, Chalana is a little more complicated than the Leonard Cohen in-jokes suggest. Jar-eel favors the harp and I don't see the White Moon Debates as having been conclusive one way or the other. 

Deezola as modern healing goddess who ruled a minor fief in the Arcos valley. She was learned in the pre-lunar earth complex. Some sources even associate her with "Arachne Solara," whatever that means up in bird country. The "white" goddess associated with the (Permanent) full phase is obscured with redness. They have to let go. Like Dayzatar makes way, let go. Entekos is a white goddess. I am not convinced Zaytenerus is either, but what do I know?

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

White Moon Movement

I've thought they were a continuation of the Ancient Moon religion who worshipped the Great Moon Goddess (now called Tareltara). I don't think it ever ended and has always existed, much like storm worship has always existed under the influence of the Sacred Mountains. Those who are drawn to it are strong in the moon rune. 

 Tareltara becomes Verithurusa is the North Goddess, White Queen of Heaven who dips down following Umatum into the Underworld and meets Death (White Moon era). Here she changes from White to Red and is now called Sedenya (Red Moon era).The women of her tribe are born very pale (white) and become red as they grow older. I think it's these descendants that form the ancestral worship of the White moon. Later she becomes Lesilla (Gerra) the Blue Moon (Blue Moon era), who dies when the moon falls (Black Moon era). Orogeria rises, the Green Moon (Green Moon era). Time begins.

Sunstop, Natha is the Moon goddess here, 75 years as Nysalor. She is only in the sky at Sunstop. I think she's invisible except to illuminates.

Castle Blue, Full Goddess returns, her brief time in the sky beset by conflict. She is physically red to black and back. I think is is a by product of the way she was assembled.

Moon falls again and the cycle starts again. The White Moon is revealed and the ancient moon religion is once again predominates (new White Moon era assuming followers believe that the original era ended). 

I've always imagined that the Moon after Sunstop should have risen white, but the Seven Mothers made something different (a bit like Dune where Paul is a generation too soon and is not what the plan was meant to make). It was the tampering that made Nysalor that was the problem. It birthed Natha into the world not Tareltara.

This is based on discussions with Greg at Gailcon 94, odd notes, etc and should be considered heretical by the Empire 🙂 

 

 

[Joerg]

So who is Zaytenara(s), and what is she doing in the Copper Tablets?

A manifestation of Dayzatar?

[scott-martin]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

I've always imagined that the Moon after Sunstop should have risen white, but the Seven Mothers made something different (a bit like Dune where Paul is a generation too soon and is not what the plan was meant to make). It was the tampering that made Nysalor that was the problem. It birthed Natha into the world not Tareltara.

Love it. Their desperation definitely put the pieces together wrong . . . but wrong is better than nothing when you're in a hurry. If I were playing technician I'd attribute it to a limitation on how their sacrifices functioned.

The scrambled sequence explains all the esoteric fiddling with things like the Masks of the Goddess. It just doesn't run smoothly when you start it at the wrong phase. I am not going to critique their liberating feminism (we've come a long way babies) but they needed to be impeccable. Too many goddesses bolted onto the three- (or four-) step process. I see that earlier efforts to reconstruct a DenegEria were not enough. Even Hon-Eel seems to be tinkering with that system later on in order to get what she wants so now all they can see is DenegOria in what becomes White Moon Country.

DenegOria is an interesting compromise but while Hon-Eel is a genius her mindset just can't quit weaponizing earth forces to literally turn the lozenge red. The distinction between moon magician and really, really effective earth priestess may be razor thing. She had u(ndoubtedly read Valare Addi and scribbed a few notes in the margins. Snake goddess, DenegOria. Esoteric Ernalda is a snake goddess too. So is Entekos as water bearer. Sure, I've read Freud and Elaine Pagels. But apply it to what we know about the western hsunchen. Oh good, there's Joerg on the line.

EDIT I've been fishy on the "Z=Y" complex for ages, so yeah, I suspect Zaytenar* is a lunar/feminine abdication and renunciation like Dayzatar. The "Y" (truth rune) is not pronounced. Plus: no feet! This phase is what you get when the old king retires instead of being sacrificed. Same with the old queen. 

So there is an esoteric snake earth woman cult in the southeast. The Seshnans called them likitae and I keep hunting their traces in Peloria. A current of "Ernalda" starts circulating in Maniria, borne on the backs of pig people. Shortly thereafter "serpent beast" shamanism emerges. Mikyh is rarely pictured but her husband is a dragon.

And as for the northeast, we had it all along and I keep forgetting. Dorasta's totem is the wolfbear, some fantastic hybrid creature that can only be described as an accumulation of parts. I don't think it could fly. Maybe its feet were special though.

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by scott-martin

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, scott-martin said:

But in the archives I find surprisingly little substantive about where the White Moon Movement comes from and what they're really all about. Yeah, they're hippies.

I've seen very little over the years on the White Moon Movement.  Maybe they all follow the words of an Altinae "guru" dressed in the robes of Chalana who speaks words of "harmony and understanding".  

[scott-martin]

12 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I've seen very little over the years on the White Moon Movement.  Maybe they all follow the words of an Altinae "guru" dressed in the robes of Chalana who speaks words of "harmony and understanding".  

Love it. If I were them I would be aware of the "foreign chaos masterplot" and take steps accordingly. Their gospel could easily look uncannily like a version of New Hrestol Idealism mysteriously translated into New Pelorian.

I keep coming back to the whiteness of the robes. Getting blood stains out of old cloth is hard stuff so if Chalana can't get new weave fast I wonder if her people have access to bleach or some other strong solvent . . . take something (a garment, a soul) that's gotten vague with experience and zap it to a white stage. I guess the Cleansed One knows how the laundry works.

EDIT: obligatory kate bush reference "hello. i know that you've been feeling tired. i bring you love . . . and deeper understanding."

Edited May 10, 2020 by scott-martin

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I keep coming back to the whiteness of the robes. Getting blood stains out of old cloth is hard stuff so if Chalana can't get new weave fast I wonder if her people have access to bleach or some other strong solvent . . .

Quest to Ourania to gain the secrets of Purification.  Quest to the Bath of Nelat to get the right "water" so you can test it out.  Then get access to the Empty Jar - the vessel to carry the "water" up from the deep realms/Underworld where the Baths lie.  Resurrect Arroin as your water bearer, and now all you need to do is find the Moon Chariot.

As for the last, perhaps the dwarfs have it in hiding somewhere? or Sedenya swallowed it so it is hidden inside her body?  Actually I guess they both can be True. It was the dwarfs secret plot to keep the White Moon from being destroyed by the Storm Gods - they tricked Sedenya into swallowing the Egg (it was in the Earth where the Crater now is), and it is hidden and dormant within her.  But she must commit utuma for the Egg to be released.

[scott-martin]

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

As for the last, perhaps the dwarfs have it in hiding somewhere? or Sedenya swallowed it so it is hidden inside her body?  Actually I guess they both can be True. It was the dwarfs secret plot to keep the White Moon from being destroyed by the Storm Gods - they tricked Sedenya into swallowing the Egg (it was in the Earth where the Crater now is), and it is hidden and dormant within her.  But she must commit utuma for the Egg to be released.

I like a plurality of prophets so yeah, someone in the Movement probably preaches all these things and MORE. The dwarves have promised new wonders in the sky. I hear they don't trade so much as stockpile silver coin for something. Only a White Dancer of Power, if such a creature is more than rumor, would be able to forecast that economy.

Either way, opening up Palasper right here and right now is mighty fishy timing. 

[Eff]

My thoughts on the White Moon Movement are fairly unformed and focused more on the everyday aspects of the White Moon than on the higher cosmology, but:

I see the White Moon Movement as existing in a position vis a vis the orthodox/orthopraxic Lunar Way as Pure Land Buddhism in Japan existed in relationship to the existing Japanese Buddhist traditions. The Pure Land movement emphasized the potential for anyone and everyone to achieve enlightenment through the direct intervention of the Buddha Amitabha without the absolute necessity of long decades of scholasticism as an ordained monk or nun. And as such, the White Moon as a whole emphasizes the potential to achieve the transcendent Sevening/"high enlightenment" (contra the "low enlightenment" of Rashoranic/Nysalorean/Yelmic Illumination) without the formal process of going before the Examiners. 

And so as a consequence, any and every crackpot idea that would ordinarily be Mindblasted out finds a home in the White Moon, so you have divergent traditions like Fiscal Anarchists alongside radical conscientious objectors and people who merely question the received wisdom that the White Moon won't rise until the light of the Red Moon shines over all of Glorantha, in turn leading to the (semi) familiar story where there's repression and crackdowns leading to a steady radicalization, a massive rebellion in the Heartlands right as Pent and Dragon Pass become major problems again, etc. etc. etc. (And then, IMHW, the White Moon's remnants after close to a decade of civil war backs Phargentes the Younger to the hilt, much as the equivalent Ikko-ikki remnants ended up backing Toyotomi Hideyoshi before dissolving.)

Of course, to wade into the muck of cosmology for a bit, the Seven prior Masks of Sedenya seem to represent a pair of cycles: the youth-maturity-old age (or innocence-compassion-grief) cycle of Red-Blue-Black of Verithurusa/Lesilla/Gerra, and the Blue-Red(and-Black?)-White cycle of Orogeria-Ulurda/Natha/Zaytenera, which appears to be a cycle of sensing, acting on what is sensed, then relaxing in the balance created by action. These are joined/mediated by the invisible/absent/clear Rashorana. So in that sense, the White Moon exists "outside of the text"- She is the peace that is disturbed by the beginning of the story, as it were, and the peace that is contained in the words "The End" or "And they all lived happily ever after."* As such, it is not possible to have the full White Moon of Peace truly rise, because if She does so, then that means Glorantha comes to a halt. (Now, of course, if She were to rise and set, wax and wane, as it were, then Glorantha/the metastory would be able to continue on, in the periods of the White Moon.) 

And this allows us to perhaps understand why Zaytenera is such a shadowy figure- absent from Her appointed city of Senthoros, only appearing in the Lives of Sedenya in the very first paragraph. She is less a person than a philosophical concept, or the idea of a person. And the White Sun that predates Brightface, perhaps, never really existed as an entity until the moment of Brightface's usurpation, created in that disjuncture as someone to usurp, as primordial consciousness forms. So in this light, the Lunar Empire's quest to bring the Lunar Way to every corner of Glorantha to make the White Moon rise is inherently quixotic (perhaps even deliberately so), an impossibility that can motivate the Lunar Empire to continue on infinitely, or an acknowledgement that all empires are temporal and fleeting and will pass. 

But maybe, to paraphrase Pink Floyd, there's no White Moon, really. As a matter of fact, the Moon is always White. 

*As such, the White Moon is white because She's an incarnation of the endpapers...

[scott-martin]

51 minutes ago, Eff said:

Verithurusa/Lesilla/Gerra

Love it. We are a healthy distance from Robert Graves now and receding mile by mile.

Lesilla's role as "hinge" between the exoteric menarche cycle (1=3=1) and something more esoteric (maybe 1=4=1) reminds me that I was only recently informed that DarOria is a "late Second Age" discovery imported or constructed to syncretize various female cults. Under that name the Pelandan quadrate goddess (Arira / Naveria / Lesilla / Koveria) was consolidated into a single cosmic figure like Glorantay or Arachne Solara. Deezola would have been familiar with this and this may actually have been her goddess.

Oraya appears to remain a hotbed of DarOria worship to this day. The fourth station is of course profound because unlike the triplicate goddess of the south the Bride both acquiesces to the name of the father and serves as sacrificer. I wonder if this is part of the religion Arim brought to Tarsh, in which case the Phargentites get even crazier + more glorious.

Of course the whiteness of the page as holding box has its talmudic abjection. I love the talmudic abjection. White chaos. White noise. White light white heat.

EDIT Deezola's square rune. But nobody ever just says "earth" here. Something else with four corners.

Edited May 10, 2020 by scott-martin

[Joerg]

Oh my, back to Entekos, "four corners of Earth, adjacent, within Light". A white stellar body, hovering above Darsen (when viewed from Alkoth or Yuthuppa).

Who discovered DarOria? Under what context (EWF, anti-EWF, Bull Shah?)

So many earlier cycles of Godtime overwritten or inaccessible due to historical (within Time) syncretism trying to salvage the greater story arc from the patchwork held together by spider silk. The Seven Mothers may have been very lucky to find a way to worm themselves through to an earlier version without getting stuck on that silk like the moths they were.

Zaytenaras stands proudly in second place on the Gods Wall, taking precedence among others to Kargzant's representation Reladivus and Rufelza's Jernedeus.

Another mystery to me: how does the near western pillar deity Jernotia/us become the overseer of the northern tower Mernita (as Jernedeus)? Syncretism? Does Rebellus Terminus claim the western approach of the four Rebels conspiring to slay the Usurper? Shadzor from the south, the Bat from the (north-)east, Verithurusa from the north. What about the Above (Pole Star/Dayzatar) and the Below? Or are these Zaytenaras and Deshlotralas? Storm King and Bat (leaving the east and west for the non-Yelmson planets)?

 

Could the golden emperor have been the lost Vadeli ruler, driven off to the East by the Blue Man? In the scheme of metals, Silver stands for the magic from above, gold stands for the bureaucrat whose humble records become immutably true orders, and brass (red) stands for the heat below and practical stuff, and war. Tin is as white, maybe with a bluish tint, yet higher than the Celestial Court folk of the Spike (Uleria) or the stars (released by Umatum baning on the golden dome).

[Ali the Helering]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Love it. We are a healthy distance from Robert Graves now and receding mile by mile

In his later years he disowned 'The White Goddess' himself, wondering what had come over him to write such rubbish! 

[scott-martin]

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Who discovered DarOria? Under what context (EWF, anti-EWF, Bull Shah?)

That, I do not know. My initial gut was that this was the reorganization of goddess spirituality after the Kill but before the Carmanian occupation . . . the men are gone, the women have a surprising amount of time in some areas for the old ways to surface, grow and then get plowed back under with the coming of the shahs. Deezola, after all, ruled in her own right, which should be fairly unthinkable in unreconstructed Dara Happan terms. 

However, MGF cases can be made for the cult being an EWF plot similar to the Dragon Sun only aimed at the earth cults instead (trying to give the impossible emperor a wife?), a female analogue to the Karvanyar resistance movements (Karvanyar as "white" sun) or even part of whatever was going on with those wild women of the western reaches breeding monsters. Tracking the snakes probably helps us rule some hypotheses in or out . . . I seriously doubt a post-Kill goddess would start out with a snake in her hand before Hon-Eel creates her own red version of the cult. Looking at it again, I suspect the surviving lampressae were slaughtered in the post-EWF purges but again could be wrong.

I hear you. The Mothers were practically impeccable just to do what they did, even though it had unforeseen consequences. Women's magic and women's history were always poorly documented . . . imagine a Western quester doing something similar for Menena! But it's progress. What's striking about this revelation for me is that it situates Valare Addi within a tradition of efforts to rehabilitate various goddess movements in the literal shadow of the DH chauvinist complex. She wasn't the first or the last female genius thinking about these things. 

The directions are always messed up. Yuthubars moves "south" as the center shifts, which may be part of the upheavals as the dome rocked. I like this because it explains my persistent question about where "north" and "west" really should be assigned and also which direction someone on the Spike faces. The Chalana and elf documents I have say that you face "west" so Danmalastan is ahead of you and your right hand would then create the White Sea. The Camps narrative has the sun facing "east," which means he goes backward today. Weirdly this makes the East the real land of the sun, which I like a whole lot. As usual, Plentonius is more comic figure than sage.

I think 4 on the Wall is I-4 under a different name or in a different phase in his development much as 6 appears elsewhere and many other entities repeat. But that's not a fight I really want to have right now . . . people looking to make me cry should take advantage!

Silver as female gold should be really interesting in a Malkionite context. Like a woman, I suppose. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by scott-martin
concealed anxieties prompt a little extra

[Sir_Godspeed]

Hm. Yeah, cardinal direction in a world where the Sun sits eternally unchanging in the centre, and planets are immobile above terrestrial cities don't make a whole lot of sense. At best, one would base directions on which celestial body one movies towards/away from relative to the immobile Sun.

Unless of course, the Sun was not always immobile - which I think most people in this thread already are onboard with. Yelm the Usurper, and all that.

[John Biles]

The White Moon is one of those prophetic symbols that everyone seizes on in order to oppose the current order, but they oppose each other too.

1.  One White Moon cult supposedly worships Dendara.  Conservative Dara Happan women who view the Red Moon as basically a foreign whore who has usurped Yelm's affection from his rightful wife.  In my Glorantha, a lot of Dara Happan women have abandoned traditional ways, joined the Lunar cult, and basically do what they want.  The White Moon Dendarans see them all as traitors and their cult is devoted to undercutting and destroying those women, with the eventual goal of destroying the Red Moon and replacing it with the White Moon of Dendara.  They see themselves as washed white by the shedding of foreigner and traitor blood.  The Lunars keep rooting these cults out but by existing, the Lunars spur the creation of yet more.  

2.  The Pure Moon sect argues that the Red Goddess is red and black because she was reborn to kill people.  That's what the Seven Mothers wanted -- a gore-soaked killer who would punish their enemies -- and that's what they got.  The Red Goddess must die so she can be reborn as the White Moon of Harmony, to rule over a golden age.  The cult faces a fundamental problem - they can't kill her without tainting themselves, so they are basically just predicting a better day to come and perserverance during the current age.  The Lunars keep an eye on them but basically, they're waiting to be saved and behaving well in the meantime.

3. The White Mask sect basically preaches that all who wear the White Mask and recite the appropriate mantras each day will know paradise on the White Moon after death.  Highly popular because it promises much for very little, it is basically a giant scam to give your magical potential to its high priest, who gives a substantial tithe of the power to the Lunars so they don't just kill him.  (He developed this scam from studying the Rokari church.)

4.  A variety of white moon sects spread among the slaves, depicting the White Moon as one of themselves, who will rise up, slaughter the Lunars and then rule in their place.  The Lunars keep frantically trying to kill this off and it just pops up again.

[davecake]

13 hours ago, Eff said:

I see the White Moon Movement as existing in a position vis a vis the orthodox/orthopraxic Lunar Way as Pure Land Buddhism in Japan existed in relationship to the existing Japanese Buddhist traditions. The Pure Land movement emphasized the potential for anyone and everyone to achieve enlightenment through the direct intervention of the Buddha Amitabha without the absolute necessity of long decades of scholasticism as an ordained monk or nun. And as such, the White Moon as a whole emphasizes the potential to achieve the transcendent Sevening/"high enlightenment" (contra the "low enlightenment" of Rashoranic/Nysalorean/Yelmic Illumination) without the formal process of going before the Examiners. 

I tend, rather, to see Nysaloran Illumination at all to have this kind of relationship with Yelmic religion in the first place - Nysaloran Illumination was quite explicit that normal folk had the potential for Illumination and spiritual freedom, in contrast to Yelmic tradition (and Dayzatar, etc). 

And I think the Lunars regard Lunar Sevening and Nysaloran Illumination as formally equivalent  - but Sevening is faster and more reliable, if more dangerous (they blast their own people with Madness and so on), and much more directly tied to Lunar practice. But I think that they do maintain a very similar attitude of 'high'/vs 'low' to difference between the full Lunar path (which then offers further guidance through the Red Goddess cult, and eventually via residence on the Moon etc), which is open only to those in Lunar cults, and the various other forms. The Red Goddess cult is heavily controlled for orthodoxy as well (via the Examiners) and thoroughly a tool of the state, and offers further cool/Chaotic magical powers. The other paths are far less controlled, even those that are state sponsored like the Order of Day or the Sisterhood of New Consciousness. The Order of Day is the intellectual powerhouse of Illumination in the Empire, the Sisterhood of New Consciousness the 'official' populist outreach, the Red Goddess Cult the magical and political core (but a far more elite, difficult, achievement). The Order of Day is the approved way to integrate both the Solar, and ultimately Kralorelan influenced, strands of Illumination with the Lunar. But many strange and uncontrolled ideas about Illumination still enter Pelorian thought via these organisations - and I am sure many reject the very specifically Lunar path of the Red Goddess as impure. 

 

[soltakss]

10 hours ago, John Biles said:

The White Moon is one of those prophetic symbols that everyone seizes on in order to oppose the current order, but they oppose each other too.

1.  One White Moon cult supposedly worships Dendara.  Conservative Dara Happan women who view the Red Moon as basically a foreign whore who has usurped Yelm's affection from his rightful wife.  In my Glorantha, a lot of Dara Happan women have abandoned traditional ways, joined the Lunar cult, and basically do what they want.  The White Moon Dendarans see them all as traitors and their cult is devoted to undercutting and destroying those women, with the eventual goal of destroying the Red Moon and replacing it with the White Moon of Dendara.  They see themselves as washed white by the shedding of foreigner and traitor blood.  The Lunars keep rooting these cults out but by existing, the Lunars spur the creation of yet more.  

2.  The Pure Moon sect argues that the Red Goddess is red and black because she was reborn to kill people.  That's what the Seven Mothers wanted -- a gore-soaked killer who would punish their enemies -- and that's what they got.  The Red Goddess must die so she can be reborn as the White Moon of Harmony, to rule over a golden age.  The cult faces a fundamental problem - they can't kill her without tainting themselves, so they are basically just predicting a better day to come and perserverance during the current age.  The Lunars keep an eye on them but basically, they're waiting to be saved and behaving well in the meantime.

3. The White Mask sect basically preaches that all who wear the White Mask and recite the appropriate mantras each day will know paradise on the White Moon after death.  Highly popular because it promises much for very little, it is basically a giant scam to give your magical potential to its high priest, who gives a substantial tithe of the power to the Lunars so they don't just kill him.  (He developed this scam from studying the Rokari church.)

4.  A variety of white moon sects spread among the slaves, depicting the White Moon as one of themselves, who will rise up, slaughter the Lunars and then rule in their place.  The Lunars keep frantically trying to kill this off and it just pops up again.

I also think that the White Moon Movement is a Nysaloran movement in that it is a movement of the masses, of the peasants and promises them a better future. It allows for Illumination without Sevening through the Examiners, seeing the Face of the White Moon.

Edited May 11, 2020 by soltakss

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, Eff said:

I see the White Moon Movement as existing in a position vis a vis the orthodox/orthopraxic Lunar Way as Pure Land Buddhism in Japan existed in relationship to the existing Japanese Buddhist traditions. The Pure Land movement emphasized the potential for anyone and everyone to achieve enlightenment through the direct intervention of the Buddha Amitabha without the absolute necessity of long decades of scholasticism as an ordained monk or nun. And as such, the White Moon as a whole emphasizes the potential to achieve the transcendent Sevening/"high enlightenment" (contra the "low enlightenment" of Rashoranic/Nysalorean/Yelmic Illumination) without the formal process of going before the Examiners. 

Sorry, missed this. Yes, that is what I feel the white Moon is about.

[Darius West]

Far and away the best source I can find is "Under the Red Moon" for HQ.  It names the White Moon "Zaytenera", and lists 14 sub-denominations of White Moon organizations that follow different interpretations of the prophecy.  Most of the organizations have weird sexual hangups, either preaching a single gender, or chastity, or orgies, or nudism.  Two organizations stand out for their violence, the Mob of Truth (think Paris Mob), the Pale Flame (arsonists), and the Prescient Army (who await the day when they will rise up for their goddess Erema).   This seems in many ways to be like the many faces of Arkat in Safelster.

It is also worth pointing out that the Zayetnera Rune is a mis-drawn peace rune that lacks the central bar of the "defense" rune of Furthark that was popular in the 1960s, being instead equal thirds of a circle.

I draw your attention to the God's Wall, Row 1, Deity 2, who is "Zayteneras" and carries the appropriate rune.  The entry reads  "Zayteneras: overseer of Senthoros.  Master of Transcendence.  He is also called Messenger of Above.  He never sets foot on the foul Earth which is why he has no feet."  There is also an italicised entry that says that the Lunars identify Zayteneras/Zaytenera as one of the seven ancient Moon Goddesses, and calls her "She who comes".  

Crucially when it comes to the White Moon, the issue is that they are pacifists who ultimately "kill for peace", and the moral absurdity of the act paralyzes the empire.  Now the fact is, a Chalana Arroy who is Illuminated can do just that, but Zaytenera isn't Chalana Arroy.  It is also intrinsic to illumination for such contradictions to "awaken" people, as they destroy the ability to think rationally, and a lot of mysticism devolves into doctrines of exterminating rational thought. 

So, is this fundamental contradiction hiding in the heart of illumination a bad thing?  Well, potentially if you are being ruled by the Monster Empire, and you want peace,( much like, say, the war weary Russian people in October 1917), perhaps killing for peace becomes a feasible action, especially if your spiritual terrorism will illuminate countless people with the implicit contradiction involved in a Nysalor Mega-riddle and semi-heroquest that paralyzes the empire and its ability to wage war.

I would point out another thing.  With the fall of Whitewall, Orlanth is dug up and "dies", only to be replaced by Orlanth Rigsdal.  It is distinctly possible that the death and dismemberment of Rufelza will make the place for Zaytenera in the same way.  Does this mean that the Storm/Moon wars will continue reincarnation after reincarnation, or will there finally be peace?  The dynamic of Gloranthan history has been that when any group within time is oppressed too mightily, they eventually turn the tables on their oppressors, and no deity may be exterminated within time, or the Compromise will turn against the would-be killers.  But after Argrath's failed Net ritual, how many deities are left?

Edited May 11, 2020 by Darius West

[French Desperate WindChild]

45 minutes ago, Darius West said:

the issue is that they are pacifists who ultimately "kill for peace"

Well, I would say it is not an issue. Once killed, you rest in peace forever. I think it is an argument often used  in some sects

 

[Tindalos]

12 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Well, I would say it is not an issue. Once killed, you rest in peace forever. I think it is an argument often used  in some sects

 

Yeah, it's like the prophecy on 298 of the guide puts it:

Quote

“As night passes into day,
as summer follows winter,
so shall the White Moon
follow the Scarlet.
The worst war of the world
can only be followed by
the best peace of the world.
The White Moon is the Moon of Peace,
For none can be warlike when
all weapons are broken.
The White Moon is the Moon of Calm,
For none are quieter than the dead.
The White Moon is the Moon of Beauty,
But who shall remain to admire her?”

Peace eternal, but the peace of death.

[Eff]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Crucially when it comes to the White Moon, the issue is that they are pacifists who ultimately "kill for peace", and the moral absurdity of the act paralyzes the empire.  

Well, as Shargash says, "Death brings Life!" If you can't see how death and life are really the same thing, you just need a bit more illuminating exercise...

[Darius West]

On 5/12/2020 at 2:21 AM, Eff said:

Well, as Shargash says, "Death brings Life!" If you can't see how death and life are really the same thing, you just need a bit more illuminating exercise...

Everyone knows that death can bring life, but the illuminates will try to persuade you that death and life are the same thing... Then kill you.

[Darius West]

On 5/11/2020 at 11:48 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Well, I would say it is not an issue. Once killed, you rest in peace forever. I think it is an argument often used  in some sects

Why stop there?  If everyone is dead, there is peace and equality for all.  Zombies have no peer pressure. - Quote from Gark the Calm.

[Sir_Godspeed]

This is what I love in a villain - internally consistent, but practically nuts conclusions based on taking otherwise logical premises to their end. 

You know, like the Agent in Firefly, or Gavin Magnus in Heroes of Might & Magic 4 (wanted to mind control everyone to make world peace), or Thanos. 

(Granted, the *actual* logical consistency of their plans is pretty brittle, but the point is that they should at least sound somewhat sensical while at the same time triggering a primal hostility with the player/viewer/reader).