Yelm and Chaos?

[Desert Wind]

What is the opinion of solar worshippers concerning Lunar way and its use of chaos?. Both cultures consist of the lunar heartland and acknowledge the rule of the Red Emperor as Moonson and successor to the ancient Solar Empire. Worshipping Yelm must be quite challenging as he expects absolute obedience to HIS laws and Darra Happan traditions. However if you live by those rules he generally seems like a benevolent and just ruler. He took part of the Great Compromise and supports stability and order. 

Then came along the Red Goddess and her values of change, inclusiveness and use of chaos. I'm sure any solar cultures (Darra Happan, lodrili and even horse nomads) would revel at the idea of ruling the world as they did in the past but their convictions go against a lot of Lunar ways. How do Darra happan nobility or other pelorians could accept lunar use of chaos especially as it degenerates into the Monster Empire. I just can't get my head around Yelm supporting anyone related to chaos. 

Any thoughts about this seemingly contradictory alliance of Sun and Red Moon?

[Sir_Godspeed]

Yelm isn't so much opposed to Chaos (not even really a concept in Yelmic cosmology) as he is opposed to insurrection and rebelliousness. 

It appears that once the Red Goddess defeated the Dara Happan Revolts, and Moonson became the Dara Happan Emperor, this satisfied the hierarchical demands of Yelm, and all was well - at least technically (which is enough, so far). The Red Goddess was no longer a rebel.

Now, that's Dara Happa, of course. But Yelm-analogues are worshipped in other areas. Yu-Kargzant is the Pentan analogue of Yelm, and they are, uh, pissed at the Red Moon (though mostly they just want their fertile Pelorian pastures back).

Edited June 5, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Desert Wind]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yelm isn't so much opposed to Chaos (not even really a concept in Yelmic cosmology) as he is opposed to insurrection and rebelliousness. 

It appears that once the Red Goddess defeated the Dara Happan Revolts, and Moonson became the Dara Happan Emperor, this satisfied the hierarchical demands of Yelm, and all was well - at least technically (which is enough, so far). The Red Goddess was no longer a rebel.

Now, that's Dara Happa, of course. But Yelm-analogues are worshipped in other areas. Yu-Kargzant is the Pentan analogue of Yelm, and they are, uh, pissed at the Red Moon (though mostly they just want their fertile Pelorian pastures back).

I believe Yelm is mentionned sometimes as the source of illumination. It could explain the sunstop and the Nysalor/Gbaji project sponsored in part by Dara Happa. 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yelm isn't so much opposed to Chaos (not even really a concept in Yelmic cosmology) as he is opposed to insurrection and rebelliousness. 

While Yelm sat out most of the Godswar in the ruined caverns of Wonderhome, he overcame a Predark foe named Jokbazi on his ascendance to emperorhood, according to RuneQuest Companion's Jonstown Compendium entry 1485 on p.33.

According to the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, Antirius too sat out the arrival fo the Chaos Horde from the north (that broke the glacier) in Manarlavus's Dome, but was killed trying to defend against those who would crack open the Dome afterwards, on the Hill of Gold.

Kargzant on the other hand remained active throughout most of the Darkness, and may have had hostile encounters with Chaos. It was his guidance which re-awakened the Dara Happan deities in the Gray Age.

The Dara Happans loathe the Kazkurtum, the emptiness of the Void. It is an aspect of Yelm, though. Plentonius appears to blame it (or its return) on Vettebbe, a fragment of Kargzant (or Antirius) that was separated from the joint Lightfore bodies at the Bridling of Kargzant late in the first century of History, and his Horse Warlord Emperor Child of Evil. Personally, I think he was drunk on numerology when making that parallel.

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It appears that once the Red Goddess defeated the Dara Happan Revolts, and Moonson became the Dara Happan Emperor, this satisfied the hierarchical demands of Yelm, and all was well - at least technically (which is enough, so far). The Red Goddess was no longer a rebel.

Those who disagreed with this satisfaction joined other rebellions, like that of Jannisor, and were gradually wiped out after their hopes of returning Yelm to the rightful (their) control. The latest batch of these were the ones who joined forces with Sheng Seleris as "Dara Happa on Horse", making more and more room for dynasties descended from the Red Emperor to take over their domains.

But only the top layer of Dara Happan nobility worships Yelm directly. Most Dara Happans and other Pelorians worship Lodril or one of his cognates, and his wife, the Earth Goddess (Oria). But Lodril had lost repeatedly against the forces of Sea or Darkness, and possibly Storm as well. Unlike his Pamaltelan namesake who led the men-and-a-half across the sinking world to fight Chaos, Dara Happan Lodril joined Antirius in hiding, or fell asleep after his worshipers failed to invoke is phallic powers.

There is one deity famous for overcoming a Chaos foe in Peloria: Argan Argar, who slew Braznofstel somewhere in Rinliddi. And there is the army of the Blue Moon Plateau that overcame Chaos armies in their neighborhood.

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Now, that's Dara Happa, of course. But Yelm-analogues are worshipped in other areas. Yu-Kargzant is the Pentan analogue of Yelm, and they are, uh, pissed at the Red Moon (though mostly they just want their fertile Pelorian pastures back).

Are they anti-Lunar, though? The Char-un have adopted the Lunar ways hook, line and sinker, and have been one of their most trustworthy atrocity forces ever since, although there was some disappointment at being given forested Erigia as their domain. (Nothing that a little Skyfire couldn't solve....)

The Pentan grudge against the Pelorians is similar to that of the True Golden Horde against the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass (who had ceased to be the EWF more than three generations earlier). They are uppity chattel property, ingrates that don't value having been led out of the Great Darkness by the horse warlord forebears.

When the Goddess revealed her Chaos nature in 1232 at the First Battle of Chaos, it appears that only the Carmanians were driven mad, starting the Mad Sultanate. If any of her allies were affected, those may have been regarded as acceptable losses, but nothing is known about that. There were Char-un, Yuthuppans, and Kostaddi Sable riders present at that battle. Nnne of these seem to have had any problems with the Crimson Bat intervening on their side. Or maybe those who did joined the Mad Sultanate?

[John Biles]

The Dara Happans have a long history of basically throwing Yelm down the stairs and obeying invaders or basically diluting Yelm worship down to nothing.  Like supporting creating Nysalor when you already *have a sun god*.  

Yelmgatha, who overthrew Carmanian rule, then basically set things up for the Red Emperor to take over after him.  We can pretty much assume that many of the Yelm worshippers who held on supported Sheng Seleris and then were purged.

By now, I would expect the Yelm worshippers to be a broken shell; many of their wives deserting them for the Red Goddess' cult which actually respects them and the Emperor having destroyed many of the remaining families as traitors.  The ambitious would leave Yelm behind and pursue the lunar cult as the road of power.  To do otherwise is to be second class in the Empire.

So only the most cautious, hard-core conservatives, who survived because they saw Sheng Seleris as being as filthy as the Red Goddess and managed to avoid dying at his hands, would still hold to Yelm.  That's still a large group.

How do they deal with Chaos?  Here's the thing.  The Empire *controls* Chaos.  At least from its perspective.  So they must tell themselves that this is tamed, repentant Chaos, which like Orlanth, has submitted to Yelm.  I can't imagine a Yelm worshipper *using* Chaos, but he could view it like we view nukes:  horrible, but necessary, and really, it's a weapon of last resort.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

58 minutes ago, John Biles said:

The ambitious would leave Yelm behind and pursue the lunar cult as the road of power.

Why not both? 

As Jeff has emphasised, the two cults have been integrated for centuries at this point. 

I *personally* agree that I somewhat struggle to grok them as harmoniously coexisting as part of the same worldview and ethos, but that seems to be the company line. 

EDIT: Honestly, there's often talk about how the Lunars have subverted the Dara Happans and Yelm, but given how the Lunar cult has evolved from a messianic revolutionary movement to a hierarchic, authoritarian state religion, you could probably make a pretty good case for the Yelmites subverting the Moon the other way around as well. (a la the Romans and Christianity, though I suspect someone will be right around the corner to explain just how wrong that comparison is).

Edited June 5, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yelm isn't so much opposed to Chaos (not even really a concept in Yelmic cosmology) as he is opposed to insurrection and rebelliousness.

One of the important aspects of Yelmic culture though is that insurrection and rebellion = Chaos.  He does oppose Chaos, it just is not necessarily the "same" Chaos.  (And that is an important reason why Yelm can support the Red Goddess because she too can work towards maintaining order, and balance, in the world, and suppress disorder and rebellion.)

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by jajagappa

[dumuzid]

The old Dara Happan conflation of Darkness with Chaos really leaves them with serious gaps in their defenses against the real stuff.

[John Biles]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Why not both? 

As Jeff has emphasised, the two cultsh have been integrated for centuries at this point. 

I *personally* agree that I somewhat struggle to grok them as harmoniously coexisting as part of the same worldview and ethos, but that seems to be the company line. 

EDIT: Honestly, there's often talk about how the Lunars have subverted the Dara Happans and Yelm, but given how the Lunar cult has evolved from a messianic revolutionary movement to a hierarchic, authoritarian state religion, you could probably make a pretty good case for the Yelmites subverting the Moon the other way around as well. (a la the Romans and Christianity, though I suspect someone will be right around the corner to explain just how wrong that comparison is).

The road to power is to be a Lunar.  At which point you get illuminated and see Yelm as a sad little man.  But in practical terms, you probably don't have time for two cults, so why join the subordinate one?  The old Imperial capital is now shattered into three cities in three satrapies.  Most satrapies are run by non-Yelmites even if Dara Happa once ruled there.  

Joining the Lunar churches is a better road to power, especially with Dara Happans stripped of authority over lands they once ruled.  

But I see your point about Dara Happans having pretty much turned the Lunars into another corrupt empire.  

[Sir_Godspeed]

11 minutes ago, John Biles said:

At which point you get illuminated and see Yelm as a sad little man

Why? 

11 minutes ago, John Biles said:

Most satrapies are run by non-Yelmites even if Dara Happa once ruled there.  

The Red Emperor is a Yelmite, even if we players might not think of him that way first and foremost.

[Richard S.]

I imagine that most Yelmites would see the normal mix of broo, vampires, gorp, walktapus, etc. and agree that "yup that's chaos". They'd also look at a bunch of trolls swarming out of the mountains or an Orlanthi chieftain sparking a rebellion and think "yup that's chaos". They probably allow the Red Goddess to be a little chaotic because she can tame the broos and vampires and trolls and Orlanthi into orderly, non-rebelling things that serve the greater glory of the empire, and thus Yelm.

[EricW]

In Orlanth is Dead the Yelmalios turn on the Lunars in the battle of Iceland, when the Lunars break their agreement and use chaos.

Not exactly chaos haters in the Stormbull sense, but some of them at least get upset when their allies openly use chaos magic right in front of them.

[Richard S.]

15 minutes ago, EricW said:

In Orlanth is Dead the Yelmalios turn on the Lunars in the battle of Iceland, when the Lunars break their agreement and use chaos.

Not exactly chaos haters in the Stormbull sense, but some of them at least get upset when their allies openly use chaos magic right in front of them.

Yelmalio's core myth ends with a battle against chaos parasites so it makes sense they'd be pretty sensitive to Chaos usage.

[Leingod]

25 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Yelmalio's core myth ends with a battle against chaos parasites so it makes sense they'd be pretty sensitive to Chaos usage.

Plus most of the Yelmalio cult's membership in Dragon Pass came out of Orlanthi roots, so even if Yelmalio's cult elsewhere has a more typically Yelmic view on what "Chaos" is, that won't necessarily be reflected in the local version at Vaantar or Alda-Chur.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Leingod

[Nick Brooke]

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Given how the Lunar cult has evolved from a messianic revolutionary movement to a hierarchic, authoritarian state religion, you could probably make a pretty good case for the Yelmites subverting the Moon the other way around as well. (a la the Romans and Christianity, though I suspect someone will be right around the corner to explain just how wrong that comparison is).

Yo. Ancient historian and pious Lunar believer here. This is totally how I see it. Thanks!

[Jeff]

14 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Yo. Ancient historian and pious Lunar believer here. This is totally how I see it. Thanks!

Or you can also see it as what happens to every revolutionary or mystical movement. Being made up of people, it ends up being used by people. The Lunar Way, the Unity Council, the God Learner Collective, the Wyrms Friends, you name it. 

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Or you can also see it as what happens to every revolutionary or mystical movement. Being made up of people, it ends up being used by people. The Lunar Way, the Unity Council, the God Learner Collective, the Wyrms Friends, you name it. 

People are the Worst.

[Sir_Godspeed]

People. Honestly. 

 

10 hours ago, Richard S. said:

They probably allow the Red Goddess to be a little chaotic because she can tame the broos and vampires

The Red Goddess can have a little Chaos. As a treat.

[DrGoth]

21 hours ago, Jeff said:

Or you can also see it as what happens to every revolutionary or mystical movement. Being made up of people, it ends up being used by people. The Lunar Way, the Unity Council, the God Learner Collective, the Wyrms Friends, you name it. 

Which leaves an interesting opening for a group of Lunar PCs.  Can you save the movement?  And who of those in charge are sympathetic to your cause?

If it's the Hero Wars, heroes can make a difference.

[Leingod]

"The movement has sold out and became just another tool of The Man to bring us down. You are The Last DJs Lunars."

Edited June 7, 2020 by Leingod

[davecake]

On 6/6/2020 at 6:55 AM, John Biles said:

The ambitious would leave Yelm behind and pursue the lunar cult as the road of power. 

The Yelm cult is the cult of the hereditary aristocracy. If you are a member of a Yelmic family, you are already on that road to power. If you are ambitious and aren’t in direct succession, the Yelm cult still generally provides enough paths to power for anyone with relatively normal levels of ambition. 
There will be those In Yelmic families who are still unsatisfied with Yelm as a ‘career path’ (especially those who do not excel at traditional Yelmic martial/masculine virtues), but for even those it’s almost always Yelm and Lunar initiation, rather than choosing one or the other.   You don’t give up all the magical and temporal power that Yelmic privilege brings. 
Of course for women it is different - Dendaran wife of a Yelmic noble is very much reflected and subservient social power - but it’s important to note that it’s a LOT of social power and a lot of privilege and luxury. And again, Deezola is a Lunar cult that welcomes Dendaran noblewomen of Yelmic families - the two complement one another, not oppose. 

As people have said, the two cults and associated power structures have been integrated for centuries. Think of it a bit like the UK monarchy and Church of England in the last couple of centuries - historically there is a big story of competing religions and conflict there, but now the two are very neatly organised as supporting and complementing each other, with few remaining natural conflicts well managed as part of the natural dynamics of empire. 

On 6/6/2020 at 6:55 AM, John Biles said:

So only the most cautious, hard-core conservatives, who survived because they saw Sheng Seleris as being as filthy as the Red Goddess and managed to avoid dying at his hands, would still hold to Yelm. 

Post-Sheng (and earlier, Jannisor) the Red Emperor has been very clear that they do not support anyone holding *exclusively* to Yelm. Want to be a member of Yelm Imperator? (The tiny exclusive cult status restricted only to significant hereditary temporal rulers - the rulers of Dara Happa) Then you need the direct permission of the Red Emperor (who is a Yelmic Emperor too, so head of the Yelmic religious hierarchy as well), and he will only grant it to those that are also initiates of the Red Goddess (which requires Illumination). 
 

The tradition idea of the conservative Yelmic aristocratic class is probably one that, like many upper classes, is somewhat of an official facade. Think of like the sanctioned hypocrisy of the Victorians, or for that matter the Romans in some periods. The Yelm cult functions are done carefully in the conservative manner, following ancient rules to the letter and with due pomp and circumstance and much social enforcement of appropriate displays of virtue and gravitas. But the very same class of people, behind closed doors or otherwise out of the public eye, or in a different context such as when far from the heartland, may be indulging in all manner of eccentricities and debaucheries, and managing the resulting scandals (especially with the deranging and liberating tendencies of Illumination) is a regular part of Yelmic social life, something your Dendara matrons concern themselves with. 

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 6/5/2020 at 5:25 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yelm isn't so much opposed to Chaos (not even really a concept in Yelmic cosmology) as he is opposed to insurrection and rebelliousness. 

We're getting a pretty skewed view of the opinions of Chaos in Glorantha by seeing it mainly through two of the most anti-chaos cultures out there, Orlanthi and Praxians. In the world at large, Chaos is often baked in with other unacceptable stuff, like the rebelliousness mentioned here, or as part of a "Krjalki" classification in the West, where what matters isn't whether you're Chaos, but whether you're a monster.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

On 6/6/2020 at 3:34 AM, John Biles said:

The road to power is to be a Lunar.  At which point you get illuminated and see Yelm as a sad little man. 

Orlanthi manage this without Illumination!

[Akhôrahil]

 

On 6/6/2020 at 11:12 AM, Nick Brooke said:

People are the Worst.

Every non-broken dwarf agrees. Don't be a person!

Edited June 12, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Nick Brooke]

20 hours ago, davecake said:

The tradition idea of the conservative Yelmic aristocratic class is probably one that, like many upper classes, is somewhat of an official facade...  The very same class of people, behind closed doors or otherwise out of the public eye, or in a different context such as when far from the heartland, may be indulging in all manner of eccentricities and debaucheries, and managing the resulting scandals (especially with the deranging and liberating tendencies of Illumination) is a regular part of Yelmic social life, something your Dendara matrons concern themselves with. 

I am reminded yet again of the moment Sandy Petersen realised the Yelmic upper classes of Dara Happa could contain a shining host of PG Wodehouse characters: worthless drones, terrifying manipulative aunts, cheerful chinless prelates and bizarrely obsessive minor nobility, holding a ceaseless whirl of house parties, sporting events and other social engagements while match-making, poaching servants and displaying ancestral trophies...