Magic Weapons vs. Spirits

[Akhôrahil]

Can you use a suitable missile weapon against a spirit? Can you shoot it twice if you have the SRs for it? Would this trigger two separate Spirit Combat exchanges against the spirit in the same round?

EDIT: Same thing with splitting my sword attack to attack the same spirit twice. Or using two weapons.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Page 368 may be applicable, but not definitive: If an entity is attacked by more than one spirit, they must roll their Spirit Combat skill separately against each attacking spirit.

This seemed clear to me, yes - you get full spirit combat against each attacking spirit.

(I have house-ruled the same -20% per additional opponent as in regular combat for additional spirits, though. But that’s just a house-rule.)

However, it seems that I only get to use weapons in spirit combat when I actually attack the spirit, and that I attack at a certain SR and so on and will likely only get one or maybe two attacks in. This indicates that I may only be able to use my sword against one spirit (or maybe two).

Edited November 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Page 366 (emphasis mine): Once a corporeal being is engaged in spirit combat, they may not attempt any skill or engage in physical melee combat with a separate physical melee target without first succeeding at an intelligence check (normally INT×5, but the gamemaster may adjust that up or down, as desired).

My point was that both using Spirit Combat and using a weapon attack involves using a skill, which in turn (as written, very likely not as intended) would require a concentration check (because there are no exceptions listed).

It seems very safe to assume that this is supposed to only apply to  using skills outside of the Spirit combat itself, although it’s not perfectly clear whether you would have to make a concentration check before you can augment your Spirit Combat with Sing.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, tnli said:

As per p. 369: "Temporary damage boosts from spirit magic (such as Bladesharp, Fireblade, etc.) do not harm most spirits, nor do unenchanted Rune metal weapons (such as unenchanted iron).“

I always remember this wrong, because it’s just a little bit different from how you get to hurt Wolf-form Telmori (against them, Bladesharp and Fireblade do work).

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Can you use a suitable missile weapon against a spirit?

yes, If it fulfils the prerequisites in Attacking with Weapons and Spells, page 369.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Can you shoot it twice if you have the SRs for it?

yes. That is always the case.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Would this trigger two separate Spirit Combat exchanges against the spirit in the same round?

Yes.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

EDIT: Same thing with splitting my sword attack to attack the same spirit twice. Or using two weapons.

Yes, see above.

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

although it’s not perfectly clear whether you would have to make a concentration check before you can augment your Spirit Combat with Sing.

No concentration roll is needed to augment spirit combat, it's part of the spirit combat. I'd want to know what the song was though. Don't forget only one augment, so if you already done it for your weapon ability roll, you can't add another.

You only have to make a concentration roll to do something outside of spirit combat: 

Quote

Once a corporeal being is engaged in spirit combat, they may not attempt any skill or engage in physical melee combat with a separate physical melee target without first succeeding at an intelligence check

 you can't, cast magic, scan, attack a physical target, heal yourself, etc without a concentration roll.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Scotty

[Scotty]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Alright, what about this: I have Dex SR 1. I cast Disruption (1SR), prepare Spirit Magic 5SR), total of 6SR. What’s the biggest Spirit Screen I will have time to cast now?

This isn't a weapon attack, but if you are already engaged:

In the statement of intent Phase. State what you are going to do first. Cast Disruption then Spirit Screen. I would make you roll concentration for the disruption, then the spirit screen, if you fail, you just waste the Strike Ranks, unable to concentrate,

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Presumably it’s either 5pt or 6pt,

• 1 DexSR 1 + Disruption (1) (first point free as usual), Disruption roll POW x5.
• 2 Prepare
• 3 Prepare
• 4 Prepare
• 5 Prepare
• 6 Prepare
• 7 DexSR1 + Spirit Screen 1 (first point free as usual)
• 8 Spirit Screen 2
• 9 Spirit Screen 3
• 10 Spirit Screen 4
• 11 Spirit Screen 5, roll POW x5
• 12 Spirit Combat

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

depending on whether I have to keep SR12 free for Spirit Combat?

You don't keep it free, it's just when the exchange happens. If you do a 6 point spirit screen it doesn't go off as you are in spirit combat when you were going to cast it.

[Scotty]

Well that seems to have covered pretty much everything.

If anyone has any real examples to go through that would be great.

I'll see if @David Scott can write up an example of this.

[Lordabdul]

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

I'm in the process of updating the Q&A at the moment, so I'm going to step in and use this to update any questions:

Thanks a lot!

Regarding this little bit from p366:

They may choose to attack the spirit attacking them using enchanted weapons (see below) without succeeding at a concentration check.

... it occurs to me that multiple people can never gang up on a spirit, either using Spirit Combat or using enchanted/magical weapons (they can only use magical weapons in response to a spirit initiating spirit combat). So only spirits can gang up on people, right?

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

However, it seems that I only get to use weapons in spirit combat when I actually attack the spirit, and that I attack at a certain SR and so on and will likely only get one or maybe two attacks in. This indicates that I may only be able to use my sword against one spirit (or maybe two).

Looks like it's one of the downsides of not having Spirit Combat, yeah: if you have 5 spirits ganging up on you, you may be able to fight off one or two of them with your magical sword at, for example, SR 5 and 10... but then the other 3 spirits are rolling their Spirit Combat unopposed at SR 12 and, basically, mess you up without any problem.

In comparison, someone with Spirit Combat would be able to roll against each of the 5 spirits on SR 12.

Edited November 23, 2020 by lordabdul

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

I'll see if @David Scott can write up an example of this.

"WE ARE LEGION! THERE ARE... err...  TWO OF US!"

(Chaos feature: two heads)

Edited November 23, 2020 by lordabdul

[Rodney Dangerduck]

As for augmenting Spirit Combat with Sing, much as I hate to say it (my character is a great singer) page 139 pretty much kaboshes that:  "typical" time for Sing (or Dance) is minutes.

[DreadDomain]

12 hours ago, Scotty said:

The first and most important is that the Attacking with Weapons and Spells section is part of the Spirit Combat section not the Combat Chapter.

I read that statement and it made me believe one could not split their attack (weapon skill over 100%) but you confirmed later that it is doable.

Since attacking twice means splitting your skill and spirit combat is a quick contest, wouldn't it dramatically reduce your chance of succeeding and giving the spirit a second chance to damage you.  Of course the same can be said about physical but I have a feeling that the quick contest of it really exacerbate the issue and makes splitting your attack a very bad idea. I need to think a bit more about it.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Since attacking twice means splitting your skill and spirit combat is a quick contest, wouldn't it dramatically reduce your chance of succeeding and giving the spirit a second chance to damage you.  Of course the same can be said about physical but I have a feeling that the quick contest of it really exacerbate the issue and makes splitting your attack a very bad idea. I need to think a bit more about it.

It would, but since you can have absurd skill levels due to Sword Trance if you’re a Humakti, you might be able to just power through.

So oh, another question - are you allowed to use your Spirit Combat skill while under a Sword Trance?

Edited November 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Mugen]

To be honest, the idea that you can use a weapon skill in spirit combat and a Spirit can defend against it with a Spirit Combat skill sounds silly to me. To me, it's two completely unrelated things. If you can attack a Spirit with a sword, he defends with Dodge. If he has no DEX, he can't defend against it, period.

I would allow one to use his Sword skill to enhance his Spirit Combat skill, though.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Quite like the idea of the magic aspect of a weapon reaching through to other other plains of existence to hold the spirits at bay. To my mind it’s just a vehicle to wield the magic in this case

[Scotty]

8 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As for augmenting Spirit Combat with Sing, much as I hate to say it (my character is a great singer) page 139 pretty much kaboshes that:  "typical" time for Sing (or Dance) is minutes.

Page 139:

Quote

Typical times required to perform certain skills or abilities are provided below, though these may vary widely depending on how they are used and the surrounding circumstances.

Using sing in Spirit Combat is not a performance, so this is about the second part of the sentence. It's more akin to magical chanting or using magic words in a ritual. You would chant as a background to the activity or use the magic words as emphasis. I would go on what the player describes as the reason for the augment. "I sing a song that my mother taught me to keep bad spirits out of my dreams" or "I sing the words my shaman taught me when killing spirits"

For further info have a look at Galdr as an example of magical words and singing.

Likewise dance would work in the same way, it's not a performance. It's ritual movements the emphasise the spirit combat, as above I'd go on what the player tells me their adventurer is doing to gain the augment. "I use the sword dancing movements I was taught to keep spirits back". Sword dancing is a pretty common cultural dance in our world.

[Scotty]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

are you allowed to use your Spirit Combat skill while under a Sword Trance?

Yes, it just increases your ability score.

[Scotty]

53 minutes ago, Mugen said:

To be honest, the idea that you can use a weapon skill in spirit combat and a Spirit can defend against it with a Spirit Combat skill sounds silly to me. To me, it's two completely unrelated things. If you can attack a Spirit with a sword, he defends with Dodge. If he has no DEX, he can't defend against it, period.

I would allow one to use his Sword skill to enhance his Spirit Combat skill, though.

This is a good example of adapting the rules to your style of play.

[Trotsky]

So, just trying to summarise what has been said here - is this right?

 

Initiating: Only initiated by a discorporate being. 1 melee round for spirit to become visible

Combat mechanics: Any number of discorporate spirits may attack a single entity

Corporeal being: INTx5 to cast a spell or to use a skill/combat against anything else besides engaged spirits 

Spirit/discorporate being: no INTx5 to cast spells – go off on SR1

Resolving Spirit Combat: opposed Spirit Combat rolls (greater success wins)

Winner/Loser: winner does spirit combat damage to other

Tie: no effect, unless both critical success then both roll damage

Loser/Loser: no effect unless a fumble (p.370)

Damage Bonus: Special x2, Critical roll damage twice (ignore Spiritual Armour). 

Special/Critical causes physical damage: random location = number of D6s rolled

Resolving Weapon Combat: may only attack spirit engaged with them

Enchanted weapons (no STR+SIZ bonus), Rune Magic damage boost (eg Truesword)

Spirit Magic damage boost spells do not usually harm spirits, but may affect weak ones

Divine damage gifts such as from Humakt only doubles any magical damage

Weapons attack on regular Strike Rank – Spirit defends with Spirit Combat – opposed roll as above. Skills over 100% reduce opponent skill as usual and can attacks can be split

Resolving Spells:

Offensive damage spells such as Disruption can harm spirits. Corporeal require INTx5 to cast       

Multiple Enemies: Resolve each combat separately. Melee weapon use limited to SR restrictions, but unlimited Spirit Combat rolls may be made with no penalty

 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Yes, it just increases your ability score.

Good point - I thought this had been errata:ed into something more like Arrow Trance, but that hasn’t happened (yet).

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, Trotsky said:

So, just trying to summarise what has been said here - is this right?

Initiating: Only initiated by a discorporate being. 1 melee round for spirit to become visible

Yes, Initiating Spirit Combat, page 366.

Combat mechanics: Any number of discorporate spirits may attack a single entity

Yes, Combatants, page 366. But, bear in mind MGF, page 6.

Corporeal being: INTx5 to cast a spell or to use a skill/combat against anything else besides engaged spirits 

Yes, but may be adjust up or down by GM. Concentration roll, Combatants, page 366.

Spirit/discorporate being: no INTx5 to cast spells – go off on SR1

Yes, No concentration roll needed, Combatants, page 366.

Yes, go off on SR1, Combatants, page 366.

POW x 5 still needed, Combatants, page 366:

Quote

Spirits may cast spells if they possess that ability and do so in the same manner as other combatants. Spells cast by a spirit go off in strike rank 1 and spirits do not need to succeed with a concentration check.

Resolving Spirit Combat: opposed Spirit Combat rolls (greater success wins)

Yes, Resolving Spirit Combat, page 368.

Winner/Loser: winner does spirit combat damage to other

Yes, Resolving Spirit Combat, page 368.

Tie: no effect, unless both critical success then both roll damage

Yes, Resolving Spirit Combat, page 368.

Loser/Loser: no effect unless a fumble (p.370)

Yes, Resolving Spirit Combat, page 368.

Damage Bonus: Special x2, Critical roll damage twice (ignore Spiritual Armour). 

Yes , Spirit Combat Damage, page 368.

Special/Critical causes physical damage: random location = number of D6s rolled

Yes, Spirit Combat Damage, page 368 and Hit Point Damage page 369.

Resolving Weapon Combat: may only attack spirit engaged with them

yes, Attacking with Weapons and Spells, page 369.

Enchanted weapons (no STR+SIZ bonus), Rune Magic damage boost (eg Truesword)

yes, Attacking with Weapons and Spells, page 369.

Spirit Magic damage boost spells do not usually harm spirits, but may affect weak ones

yes, Attacking with Weapons and Spells, page 369.

Divine damage gifts such as from Humakt only doubles any magical damage

yes

Weapons attack on regular Strike Rank – Spirit defends with Spirit Combat – opposed roll as above. Skills over 100% reduce opponent skill as usual and can attacks can be split

Yes

Resolving Spells:

Offensive damage spells such as Disruption can harm spirits. Corporeal require INTx5 to cast

Yes, needs POW x5 as usual.   

Multiple Enemies: Resolve each combat separately. Melee weapon use limited to SR restrictions, but unlimited Spirit Combat rolls may be made with no penalty

Yes

 

 

[Trotsky]

Thanks Scotty - what was quite interesting putting this together is that this is all in the rules. I think what I and some others misunderstood was the opposed roll nature of using a weapon - we sort of defaulted to the regular combat process.

[Scotty]

I've added a results table to the original post as well:

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Initiating: Only initiated by a discorporate being. 1 melee round for spirit to become visible

Yes, Initiating Spirit Combat, page 366.

Hi Scotty, thanks a lot to clarify everithing here

A question about the shamanic hability "Show Spirit" (p361)

Does it allow a corporeal being to attack the spirit, once the spirit is "showed" ? or is it just a kind of picture and not a materialization of the spirit ?

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, Trotsky said:

Spirit Magic damage boost spells do not usually harm spirits, but may affect weak ones

Divine damage gifts such as from Humakt only doubles any magical damage

What about Sorcery or Sorcery enhanced weapons?